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Divorce and Jesus

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
e.r.m. said:
You are not the beginning in the end, the Alpha and Omega of the divorce doctrine, the Scriptures are.
Just in this one thread I was. In other threads I try to be reasonable. In this one I just wanted to have my say, and I appreciate that some folks came to read and comment.

'Scripture' however can be treacherous as the seas, shifting as the sands; because what you get depends upon your perspective, interest, and other factors. Jesus once told the parable of a man who built his house on sand, and it was unable to withstand the weather despite how beautiful his home may have been or how broad its beams. Out from under it came the foundation, and then all the beautiful work on top served only to hasten its crash. That is a life built upon taking a doctrinal position. The moment you think you're smart is the moment you've built upon sand, and Scripture is always a moving target. It is like manna, because you never know what it flavor it will be from one day to the next.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Just in this one thread I was. In other threads I try to be reasonable. In this one I just wanted to have my say, and I appreciate that some folks came to read and comment.

'Scripture' however can be treacherous as the seas, shifting as the sands; because what you get depends upon your perspective, interest, and other factors. Jesus once told the parable of a man who built his house on sand, and it was unable to withstand the weather despite how beautiful his home may have been or how broad its beams. Out from under it came the foundation, and then all the beautiful work on top served only to hasten its crash. That is a life built upon taking a doctrinal position. The moment you think you're smart is the moment you've built upon sand, and Scripture is always a moving target. It is like manna, because you never know what it flavor it will be from one day to the next.
This is the case when your argument is built on the Bible ALONE, anyway. Putting the Bible back in its proper context and interpreting it in light of the rest of the Apostolic Tradition gives you a much more stable foundation, however.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Just in this one thread I was. In other threads I try to be reasonable. In this one I just wanted to have my say, and I appreciate that some folks came to read and comment.

'Scripture' however can be treacherous as the seas, shifting as the sands; because what you get depends upon your perspective, interest, and other factors. Jesus once told the parable of a man who built his house on sand, and it was unable to withstand the weather despite how beautiful his home may have been or how broad its beams. Out from under it came the foundation, and then all the beautiful work on top served only to hasten its crash. That is a life built upon taking a doctrinal position. The moment you think you're smart is the moment you've built upon sand, and Scripture is always a moving target. It is like manna, because you never know what it flavor it will be from one day to the next.
I understand you must have encountered a lot of bad attitudes in the past for you to come out like this in the OP. Yet I think you could have been clear without being belligerent. In this forum I have seen a lot of people willing to give a person's point of view a fair shake.

Jesus did not take the view that scriptures are moving sand.
Jesus put a lot of faith in God's words, just as He said them.

John 12:48-50 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. [49] For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. [50] I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

The house built on sand is not a lesson on doctrine, but of putting Jesus's words into practice.
A person who follows Jesus's teachings on divorce will understand a lot more and be blessed as opposed to a person who only studies them and doesn't do them.
 
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Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Shiranui117 said:
This is the case when your argument is built on the Bible ALONE, anyway. Putting the Bible back in its proper context and interpreting it in light of the rest of the Apostolic Tradition gives you a much more stable foundation, however.
Yes, you are right; but, Shiranui117, very few Christians are orthodox. Orthodoxy requires years, and its real sense concerning scripture is unavailable to a fourth or fifth generation protestant such as me. You can only suggest that everyone join and begin to learn how to be orthodox. (I consider it from time to time!) You believe in veils and symbols, but I struggle to weigh their benefits against their costs. It seems like tradition has many rules to follow without knowing why. Then after spending years of commitment you finally know something, but you can't say anything. You have to watch other people drown in the flood.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
e.r.m. said:
I understand you must have encountered a lot of bad attitudes in the past for you to come out like this in the OP. Yet I think you could have been clear without being belligerent. In this forum I have seen a lot of people willing to give a person's point of view a fair shake.
Its more like misguided humor than true attitude. I disagree about the 'Fair shake' however. Nothing about religion is fair weighed. You start out with a random set of parents, and then you hope for the best. These forums prove that if nothing else.

Jesus did not take the view that scriptures are moving sand.
Jesus put a lot of faith in God's words, just as He said them.
I understand what you're saying. Is that really what you thought I meant? My fault for not being more clear. Let God be true and every man a liar that He may be proven right in his judgments. Let righteousness fall like rain and salvation spring up watered by it. God forms the light and creates darkness. He made us and not we ourselves. Woa to the clay which argues with its potter. There is a way that seems right to a person but in the end it only leads to death. "Truly you are a God who hides himself, O God and Savior of Israel."

These are about the wisdom of doing instead of talking. Righteousness comes from God and each person seeks God. There's never any permanent agreement about scripture between people. Saying that 'Scripture' is your foundation -- this is not what Jesus had in mind.

John 12:48-50 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. [49] For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. [50] I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
I understand what you're saying I think. Did you know that Jesus central message was that the 'Kingdom of God is Here!'. Yes, that was his Gospel. He made sure to point out "For I did not speak of my own accord..."

The house built on sand is not a lesson on doctrine, but of putting Jesus's words into practice.
A person who follows Jesus's teachings on divorce will understand a lot more and be blessed as opposed to a person who only studies them and doesn't do them.
I can appreciate what you are saying, however Jesus really was hoping that all of his disciples would love one another. Instead they are all focused upon doctrines, believing that doctrines will unite them. Belief in the power of Doctrines is sinking sand relatively speaking. After thousands of years of doctrinal emphasis, nothing but division has come from it. Person A believes its important to say "In the name of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost" and another doesn't. One believes in water baptism and another in sprinkling; so they refuse to put up with each other. Divorce is just one issue that has split many many churches and itself was the reason the Anglicans broke off from the Catholics. Its just one of the little needles that Christians see in one another's eyes.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Yes, you are right; but, Shiranui117, very few Christians are orthodox. Orthodoxy requires years, and its real sense concerning scripture is unavailable to a fourth or fifth generation protestant such as me. You can only suggest that everyone join and begin to learn how to be orthodox. (I consider it from time to time!) You believe in veils and symbols, but I struggle to weigh their benefits against their costs. It seems like tradition has many rules to follow without knowing why. Then after spending years of commitment you finally know something, but you can't say anything. You have to watch other people drown in the flood.

Wow. Good description.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Its more like misguided humor than true attitude. I disagree about the 'Fair shake' however. Nothing about religion is fair weighed. You start out with a random set of parents, and then you hope for the best. These forums prove that if nothing else.

I understand what you're saying. Is that really what you thought I meant? My fault for not being more clear. Let God be true and every man a liar that He may be proven right in his judgments. Let righteousness fall like rain and salvation spring up watered by it. God forms the light and creates darkness. He made us and not we ourselves. Woa to the clay which argues with its potter. There is a way that seems right to a person but in the end it only leads to death. "Truly you are a God who hides himself, O God and Savior of Israel."

These are about the wisdom of doing instead of talking. Righteousness comes from God and each person seeks God. There's never any permanent agreement about scripture between people. Saying that 'Scripture' is your foundation -- this is not what Jesus had in mind.

I understand what you're saying I think. Did you know that Jesus central message was that the 'Kingdom of God is Here!'. Yes, that was his Gospel. He made sure to point out "For I did not speak of my own accord..."

I can appreciate what you are saying, however Jesus really was hoping that all of his disciples would love one another. Instead they are all focused upon doctrines, believing that doctrines will unite them. Belief in the power of Doctrines is sinking sand relatively speaking. After thousands of years of doctrinal emphasis, nothing but division has come from it. Person A believes its important to say "In the name of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost" and another doesn't. One believes in water baptism and another in sprinkling; so they refuse to put up with each other. Divorce is just one issue that has split many many churches and itself was the reason the Anglicans broke off from the Catholics. Its just one of the little needles that Christians see in one another's eyes.
If you don't hear from me by Saturday on this, remind me please.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Yes, you are right; but, Shiranui117, very few Christians are orthodox. Orthodoxy requires years, and its real sense concerning scripture is unavailable to a fourth or fifth generation protestant such as me. You can only suggest that everyone join and begin to learn how to be orthodox. (I consider it from time to time!) You believe in veils and symbols, but I struggle to weigh their benefits against their costs. It seems like tradition has many rules to follow without knowing why. Then after spending years of commitment you finally know something, but you can't say anything. You have to watch other people drown in the flood.
You know, I've been meaning to get to this, and I just now finally got around to it. :eek:

I appreciate your honesty here; it's a breath of fresh air. I think I know just as well as you the challenge of learning to be Orthodox, given that I'm walking that path myself. I know and openly admit that I don't know much, and I often do a crappy job of explaining what little I do know. But there is plenty of help available for those learning to be Orthodox; there's over 2000 years of teaching and experience that's right there for us to access. In order to learn the Orthodox interpretation of Scripture, all you need to know/do is go to the Liturgy and the other services, and get something like the Orthodox Study Bible that has commentary from the Fathers, and when need be, ask some questions to your priest or to other Orthodox, either online or offline if you don't know where to look. If you don't know why you're doing something in worship or in your spiritual life, again, you can just ask a question or find the right place to look. Learning to be Orthodox can seem daunting, intimidating, unfamiliar and confusing, but if you just ask questions, find a good Orthodox book, or find the writings of a Saint or Church Father who talks about these things, you'll figure out that the answers aren't very hard at all to get. In that sense, what you put into learning Orthodoxy is what you get back out.

And if I may ask, what do you mean exactly by your last comment?
Then after spending years of commitment you finally know something, but you can't say anything. You have to watch other people drown in the flood

Thank you and God bless,
-Shiranui
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Shiranui said:
And if I may ask, what do you mean exactly by your last comment?
Shiranui, thanks for asking about this. Its not a slander.

I Peter 1:9 said:
Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
I began to realize some ways back that this is about the Catholic walk, and I came to believe that eternal life is the life you invest in the church, not some ghostly apparition of yourself or regrown flesh. A man is nothing before God and in all of eternity. Now the member of the Church has placed themselves onto a boat waiting for the world to be cleansed of evil (though Church members do good works I'm not saying you are the Watchers or something like that). You plan to be in that boat indefinitely until the LORD has provided dry land. Perhaps the evil will destroy one another or will all convert or will learn to be good, but ideally your church will begin to shine so that all men will be drawn towards God through Jesus.

  • I Peter 3:20-21 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
  • I Peter 2:21-23 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.
  • Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
I Peter is very explicit and reveals your church's purpose. I did not reveal it. It was revealed when the scriptures were translated into English. You are in the church, because you believe God's glory is eternal but your individual glory is not. Your baptism places you into an ark where you have food and shelter and are dry while everyone else is drowning. Think of it this way: What you do through Christ is eternal, but what everyone else does is temporal.

Your life is invested in renewing the world, but you must rely upon your symbols and limited revelations to call the weak & foolish. You aren't allowed to attract people by argument, by convincing them, by reasoning with them. The wise must fend for themselves. (I Corinthians 1:20) There is no bullhorn calling people into the ark. People think you're as crazy as old Noah, because you are so disciplined and because they don't get it. They don't get it, because it is a vailed purpose calling upon only the foolish, not upon the wise. If wise people were being called, then your church would merely be a collection of wise people instead of a transformed people. As you progress in understanding the NT writings it requires you to understand the OT ones as well, and then you become more & more silent. Finally you would rather listen than talk and no longer believe that talking accomplishes anything eternal. James writes about this at length.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Shiranui, thanks for asking about this. Its not a slander.

I began to realize some ways back that this is about the Catholic walk, and I came to believe that eternal life is the life you invest in the church, not some ghostly apparition of yourself or regrown flesh. A man is nothing before God and in all of eternity. Now the member of the Church has placed themselves onto a boat waiting for the world to be cleansed of evil (though Church members do good works I'm not saying you are the Watchers or something like that). You plan to be in that boat indefinitely until the LORD has provided dry land. Perhaps the evil will destroy one another or will all convert or will learn to be good, but ideally your church will begin to shine so that all men will be drawn towards God through Jesus.

  • I Peter 3:20-21 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
  • I Peter 2:21-23 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.
  • Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
I Peter is very explicit and reveals your church's purpose. I did not reveal it. It was revealed when the scriptures were translated into English. You are in the church, because you believe God's glory is eternal but your individual glory is not. Your baptism places you into an ark where you have food and shelter and are dry while everyone else is drowning. Think of it this way: What you do through Christ is eternal, but what everyone else does is temporal.

Your life is invested in renewing the world, but you must rely upon your symbols and limited revelations to call the weak & foolish. You aren't allowed to attract people by argument, by convincing them, by reasoning with them. The wise must fend for themselves. (I Corinthians 1:20) There is no bullhorn calling people into the ark. People think you're as crazy as old Noah, because you are so disciplined and because they don't get it. They don't get it, because it is a vailed purpose calling upon only the foolish, not upon the wise. If wise people were being called, then your church would merely be a collection of wise people instead of a transformed people. As you progress in understanding the NT writings it requires you to understand the OT ones as well, and then you become more & more silent. Finally you would rather listen than talk and no longer believe that talking accomplishes anything eternal. James writes about this at length.
Thanks, now I know what you're saying. Very interesting points, and I completely get where your coming from with this.

Arguments ARE used by the Orthodox (we have our apologists just like everyone else) but we recognize through experience that logic and arguments and evidences alone won't convert anyone to Christianity; I myself have been reminded of this on every single thread on every forum where I've made a logical argument for some part of Orthodoxy. Words and arguments won't work on people. Example and experience will. Actions speak louder than words. The idea is, we Orthodox live our lives in an Orthodox manner, and that makes us stand out as a light to the world. When people ask why we do what we do, then we can formally introduce them to Orthodoxy. You can tell people what being an Orthodox Christian has to offer, but then you have to demonstrate the impact that it has on your life. You can tell them that the Trinity is right, why Jesus is both God and Man, and why the Apostolic Tradition and Succession is necessary and then give logical arguments and sound evidence for all that, but you have to show them why that matters. You can lead a horse to water just as you can give compelling arguments for Christianity. But those same arguments will not make the horse drink; the horse has to want it, and you need to show the horse that it needs to drink the water.

Also, I'm not sure that James told people to remain silent. He DID say to refrain from idle and evil talk, but he didn't say anything against refusing to speak altogether. Likewise, I don't think God REJECTS the wise from being members of His Church, but the message of Christianity is foolish to the wise, even though it is the wise who are truly foolish.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Shiranui117 said:
Also, I'm not sure that James told people to remain silent. He DID say to refrain from idle and evil talk, but he didn't say anything against refusing to speak altogether. Likewise, I don't think God REJECTS the wise from being members of His Church, but the message of Christianity is foolish to the wise, even though it is the wise who are truly foolish.
Unfortunately for you I am always right in this thread, so you will just have to take my word for it. You can be right in some other thread, and I'll feign humility.

we recognize through experience that logic and arguments and evidences alone won't convert anyone to Christianity
You do have 'Apologists', but as you affirm they accomplish little. The three tools are: 1. Blood of the Lamb 2. Word of their testimony 3. Did not love their own lives even unto the point of death. (Revelation 12:11)

Job 6:25 How painful are honest words! But what do your arguments prove?

Job 42:5-6 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.

II Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Colossians 2:2-4 "My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments."

Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible."
 
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