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Questions about the Crucifixion

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Yet Jesus(pbuh) didn't sin but he is not living on earth at the moment (remember that he was killed during the crucifixion) nor is he planing to do so in the near future after hes Messianic appearance according to scriptures.

Jesus was resurrected to heavenly life...he is a spirit now. He will not be returning to earth in the flesh. He is the head of Gods heavenly kingdom and will rule over mankind from that location.

Could you quote me a specific verse that says the Messiah will die for our sins from prior prophets? God promising to remove death thought a Messiah has nothing to do with sinning it can also mean a physical death.

Gen 3;15 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” The messiah was to receive a 'heel' wound, something from which he would recover. The serpent would receive a 'head' wound... fatal.

Isaiah 55 is a messianic prophecy showing that he would be 'cut off' and his burial place would be among the rich,
7 He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering; and like a ewe that before her shearers has become mute, he also would not open his mouth. 8 Because of restraint and of judgment he was taken away; and who will concern himself even with [the details of] his generation? For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke...


Your asserting that God is unjust and not merciful. He did not bring the dead back to live Jesus(pbuh) was crucified (according you) over 2000 years.

Jesus was resurrected on the 3rd day. God raised him from the dead and gave him immortal spirit life. So he is alive, he has been alive since his resurrection and he has been waiting for the time to arrive when he goes into action against Gods enemies.

Hmm what about slaying the enemy is that not a sin? I am correctly the Messianic appearance is also prophesied in Luke right?

Could you please respond to Mark 5-10 where Jesus(pbuh) did forgive people.. Why the need for a crucifixion?

The time of the resurrection is not upon us yet. It can only take place after Christ has destroyed Satan the devil and the demons. During the 1,000 year rule of Christ, the dead will be restored to life in paradise.

Jesus has been given 'authority' to forgive sins 'completely' during his 1,000 year rule. That is called the 'Messianic Era' That is when all the nations will be taught the truth about God Jehovah, and Christ is the one who has been given authority to lead the nations back to God.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
i wont be going to heaven, my hope is to live forever on earth... but if i die, i'll be going to hell feeding the worms and fertilizing the ground ... i'll be useful in death, it will be great :D
Even if you are 89 old have a disease?
Why go to hell is there no heaven? So against my question if you go to "hell" do you still have a conscious and what will you be doing just lying down?

mankind is born into 'imperfection'... this means that a little baby will eventually grow up and will be prone to make the same mistakes as its parents make...they will fall into sin. Just because they die before they are old enough to consciously sin, doesn't mean they have not inherited imperfection. We all inherited it from our parents at conception.
But during the resurrection, God will restore all lives that have been lost in this world. He knows them all.
I am talking about a baby that dies.. So a baby is guilty of sin even if he or she did not commit a act? Being alive is a sin that is harsh won't you say? In your reasoning God created us solely on the purpose so we can be punished?
Not sure how your last sentence was relevant but i am used it by now.

yes it does... but only AFTER he became the Messiah. When he returned to heaven and when he was given authority, he became the judge of mankind.... but before this, he was subject to God just as we all are.
Do you mean after the Crucifixion? If that is the case i have a advice read the bible instead of telling other people to do so. This "incident" happened before he was crucified. So why the crucifixion when he simply forgives people, you still haven't answered this after 5/7 posts. You made the statement that Jesus(pbuh) never forgave or had the authority are you willing to reconsider?

After he has finished his role as the Messiah, the scriptures state that he will 'hand back' authority to his father and subject himself to God once more. So Jesus authority is only temporary...and it never overrides Gods authority.
You said he never had the authority so when did he not have the authority and when did he get the authority according you?

he didnt pay for our individual sins...he paid collectively the price of 'divine justice' (death)

It is merciful on Gods part to make a way for us to not have to die by divine justice.
Your first sentence is irrelevant and doesn't make sense even if he paid each individual it becomes a collective anyway in the end. So its god's mercy and justice to let a innocent person die and the guilty ones free?

Don't you see this contradicts being merciful and justice on the same time?
Lets say there is a trial and there is a group of murders sentenced collectively and each of those murders killed over 200 people. Would it be justice to sentence them free? Would it be merciful or just of the judge to bring forth hes innocent child and give him the punishment instead and let the murders go free? :confused:

So the verse actually should go this way:

for god so loved the criminals that he gave his only son?

God condemned Isrealites to offer human sacrifices because ALL mankind are sinners. There is not one human child that they could offer to save themselves from sin, so he wrote it in his law that they were forbidden from offering human sacrifices.
Well that reason is not part of the commandment but sure if you think that's why. Its not talking about children but human-beings in general.. Jesus(pbuh) was a human-being according you.

But God could provide a perfect human life by which to redeem fallen mankind. He and only he could bring a perfect life into the world. Our earliest ancestors knew that blood would have to be spilled for sins to be taken away. But they didnt want it to be their own blood because that would end their life...so they offered animals... but those animals did not save them from death. Only a perfect HUMAN life could be exchanged for what Adam lost.
This doesn't neglect the Law according to the Bible the law is ever binding so i don't see how Jesus(pbuh) is a exception since you agreed that Jesus(pbuh) was a human-being. There is also no verse that justifies a human sacrifice even if that human is sinless.

Adam lost perfect human life, Jesus gave it back to God by offering his own life in exchange.
Curious how many times are you going to repeat yourself without actually making a good point or actually addressing the things i am saying.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
I am not sure why i bother but ill reply to you tomorrow i am off to bed and please consider to re-read everything a bit careful since your statements are not consistent.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Even if you are 89 old have a disease?
Why go to hell is there no heaven? So against my question if you go to "hell" do you still have a conscious and what will you be doing just lying down?

what do the scriptures say?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all,
if you get buried, you wont just by 'lying down'... you body will decompose until it returns to dust. And you wont be conscious of anything...dead is dead.

What does Islam tell you happens to you when you die?


I am talking about a baby that dies.. So a baby is guilty of sin even if he or she did not commit a act? Being alive is a sin that is harsh won't you say? In your reasoning God created us solely on the purpose so we can be punished?

every baby born to an imperfect parent will have 'imperfection'. When a child is born with sickness, it is evidence of imperfection in the child. When it is born with a deformity, it is evidence that even babies are imperfect while they are being formed.
Psalms 51: 5 Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains,
And in sin my mother conceived me.


When a baby dies, it is further evidence of imperfection of mankind. Now, that baby didnt choose to be born that way, but it was none the less and there is nothing the parents can do to change that.

If God is a loving merciful God with power, then surely he can do something about our situation. What does Islam teach with regard to the problems of mankind...our sickeness/death/suffering/sin.... what does Islam teach will fix all these problems?????

Do you mean after the Crucifixion? If that is the case i have a advice read the bible instead of telling other people to do so. This "incident" happened before he was crucified. So why the crucifixion when he simply forgives people, you still haven't answered this after 5/7 posts. You made the statement that Jesus(pbuh) never forgave or had the authority are you willing to reconsider?

There is the forgiveness and mercy that Gods shows mankind...but it is not 100% absolute forgiveness. How do we know? Because the divine penalty for sin is still applied to everyone. God says he will forgive us, but he doesnt say he will remove the divine penalty from us just because he has forgiven us.
Exodus 34:7 preserving loving-kindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin,
but by no means will he give exemption from punishment

What does this verse show? It shows that forgiveness of itself does not take away sin or death. Yes Jesus was given authority to forgive sins, but those who he may have said were forgiven, still died. They were still punished by divine justice.

The complete removal of sin, resulting in death, can only begin to happen during the Millenial Reign of Christ as Messiah. Any forgiveness that has taken place prior to that time, was not 100% complete and absolute. Punishment for sins has still been applied to every individual on earth who has sinned.


You said he never had the authority so when did he not have the authority and when did he get the authority according you?

Christ was given heavenly authority when God placed him on the throne of the heavenly kingdom....this was AFTER he was killed and resurrected. It did not happen during his time on earth as a man but some time after he had been resurrected to heavenly life.

So its god's mercy and justice to let a innocent person die and the guilty ones free?

Yes. God willingly sacrificed his son so that we might live. Yes. That is Gods love and mercy in action. He did what was necessary to save mankind.

What does Islam say God will do to save mankind?

Don't you see this contradicts being merciful and justice on the same time?
Lets say there is a trial and there is a group of murders sentenced collectively and each of those murders killed over 200 people. Would it be justice to sentence them free? Would it be merciful or just of the judge to bring forth hes innocent child and give him the punishment instead and let the murders go free? :confused:

Every one of mankind each have a death sentence hanging over their head whether they killed someone or not. We are all condemned to die because we all sin. But our sin is an inheritance.
God has shown the greatest love and mercy by providing a ransom in exchange for all of us.

What does Islam teach...Is God going to leave mankind forever more in the situation where evildoers and wicked people can do what they want in the world??? Or is God going to fix our problems?


So the verse actually should go this way:
for god so loved the criminals that he gave his only son?

we are ALL criminals by the standards of Gods perfect law. We are all law breakers by Gods perfect standards of righteousness. We are all evildoers by virtue of our failure to show perfect love and we are all rebels for the reason that we have all failed to abide perfectly by Gods laws.

so yes, God gave his only son for the criminals.

What does islam teach... are all mankind perfect? Are children born perfect?
 
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