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How are those misleading being misled?

savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
2 Timothy 3:13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
New World Translation But wicked men and imposters will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled
Young's Literal Translation and evil men and impostors shall advance to the worse, leading astray and being led astray.
Calvin's Commentary
13 But wicked men and impostors This is the most bitter of all persecutions, when we see wicked men, with their sacrilegious hardihood, with their blasphemies and errors, gathering strength. Thus Paul says elsewhere, that Ishmael persecuted Isaac, not by the sword, but by mockery (Galatians 4:29.) Hence also we may conclude, that in the preceding verse, it was not merely one kind of persecution that was described, but that the Apostle spoke, in general terms, of those distresses which the children of God are compelled to endure, when they contend for the glory of their Father.

I stated, a little before, in what respect they shall grow worse and worse; for he foretells not only that they will make obstinate resistance, but that they will succeed in injuring and corrupting others. One worthless person will always be more effectual in destroying, than ten faithful teachers in building, though they labor with all their might. Nor are there ever wanting the tares which Satan sows for injuring the pure corn; and even when we think that false prophets are driven away, others continually spring up in other directions.

Again, as to the power of doing injury, [188] it is not because falsehood, in its own nature, is stronger than truth, or that the tricks of Satan exceed the energy of the Spirit of God; but because men, being naturally inclined to vanity and errors, embrace far more readily what agrees with their natural disposition, and also because, being blinded by a righteous vengeance of God, they are led, as captive slaves, at the will of Satan. [189] And the chief reason, why the plague of wicked doctrines is so efficacious, is, that the ingratitude of men deserves that it should be so. It is highly necessary for godly teachers to be reminded of this, that they may be prepared for uninterrupted warfare, and may not be discouraged by delay, or yield to the haughtiness and insolence of adversaries.
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I have been surfing for a definition of what "being misled" means. We understand how wicked men mislead but how are they misled? Calvin says by Satan they are misled but does not explain sufficiently how Satan misleads. We cannot assume Satan is whispering in the ears of wicked men. It is the twenty first century. Is there a reasonable real world explanation of it?

What do you say?
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Matthew 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Matthew 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

Isaiah 9:17 Therefore the Lord will take no pleasure in the young men, nor will he pity the fatherless and widows, for everyone is ungodly and wicked, every mouth speaks vileness. Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised.

Everyone?

What is it that can cause a man to choose to mislead?
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A leader needs people to mislead to mislead. It is people who mislead them. In other words the people who listen to leaders to believe them are the ones misleading their leaders. The leader thinks "they want me" so he leads them. And they keep coming so he leads them some more. Without people to be led there can be no leaders to mislead.

Did I get it right?
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
savagewind said:
2 Timothy 3:13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
New World Translation But wicked men and imposters will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled
Young's Literal Translation and evil men and impostors shall advance to the worse, leading astray and being led astray.

I have been surfing for a definition of what "being misled" means. We understand how wicked men mislead but how are they misled? Calvin says by Satan they are misled but does not explain sufficiently how Satan misleads. We cannot assume Satan is whispering in the ears of wicked men. It is the twenty first century. Is there a reasonable real world explanation of it?
What do you say?
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I believe Satan is still influencing this world.
a good book to reference to is Made to Stick. This book covers a lot of the psychology that explains why people believe things that are not true.

Even in Christianity, people do not require truth to believe in something.
This book covers 6 criteria with which most people believe almost anything. Two of which I could remember off the top of my head are simplicity and concreteness.
 
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Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
savagewind said:
I suspect I know. I just want to check if I am right.
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How about deception as compared to misconception?
(note my signature)

Once exposed to a notion of belief, most people stick to it.
Not much of a loyalty if you let go at every occasion.

So pose any item as you care to and then, think about it.
Is it really sound thinking?
Can you go about professing the idea as if profound?

What seems firm in reason can be found out as a lie.
But only if you test the notion in everyway.
Be thorough in your methods.
Trust no one.....question everything.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
2 Timothy 4:3-5 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths But you, keep your head in all situations.

I agree the answer is other people. It is the people misleading the misleading leaders. I once read a goat synopsis written by a farmer. I wish I had copied it. The farmer noticed an interesting characteristic of goats that is different than sheep. As sheep need the shepherd, which is a well known fact, goats seem to need each other. Goats are happiest with other goats.

Isaiah 14:9 Calls the leaders of the Earth goats (Strong's #6260)
Zechariah 10:3 Against the shepherds did Mine anger burn, And against the he-goats I lay a charge, For inspected hath Jehovah of Hosts His flock, the house of Judah, And set them as His beauteous horse in battle

Ezekiel 34:10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What do goats have to do with it you might ask?

Goats are happiest with other goats. It is a fact that people who are similar gather together. People with similar beliefs gather together in religion. People with similar politics gather together in government. People with similar money gather together in society. The people who are gathered together choose leaders and trend setters. The leaders and trend setters would not be such without the rest of the group. Did you never wonder what makes a goat a goat?
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
savagewind said:
What do goats have to do with it you might ask?

Goats are happiest with other goats. It is a fact that people who are similar gather together. People with similar beliefs gather together in religion. People with similar politics gather together in government. People with similar money gather together in society. The people who are gathered together choose leaders and trend setters. The leaders and trend setters would not be such without the rest of the group. Did you never wonder what makes a goat a goat?
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I agree with your assessment, but I think there's more to it. I think it goes both ways. Martin Luther was not recruited by a group, he was upset and motivated by the likes of Johann Tetzel. Only after he posted the 95 theses on the Catholic Church door did he get a large following. Zwingli was assigned by the Catholic Church as a priest to a certain congregation. He then begin making changes which the congregations enjoyed. Only then was Geneva willing to join with him in separating from the Catholic Church. Many leaders can also receive credit for misleading others. It's case by case.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
e r.m. said:
I agree with your assessment, but I think there's more to it. I think it goes both ways. Martin Luther was not recruited by a group, he was upset and motivated by the likes of Johann Tetzel. Only after he posted the 95 theses on the Catholic Church door did he get a large following. Zwingli was assigned by the Catholic Church as a priest to a certain congregation. He then begin making changes which the congregations enjoyed. Only then was Geneva willing to join with him in separating from the Catholic Church. Many leaders can also receive credit for misleading others. It's case by case.
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It is a good example, thank you.

Is this word a flub? "Many leaders can also receive credit for misleading others"

Credit: Brownie points, acclaim, acknowledgment, approval, attention, belief, commendation, confidence, credence, distinction, faith, fame, glory, honor, kudos*, merit, notice, pat on the back, points, praise, reliance, strokes, thanks, tribute

Should there power in the air to combat the power in the air to give credit for leading astray such as that?
ie the protagonist who affords these? disacknowledgement, disapproval, disbelief, disclaimer, discredit, dishonor, disregard, disrespect

or

do you mean

believe, depend on
Synonyms: accept, bank on, buy, consider, deem, fall for, feel, hand it to one, have faith in, hold, pat on back, rely on, sense, swallow*, take as gospel truth, take stock in, think, trust

Which would not make sense with the word "misleading". It would make sense with the word "leading".

Please do not take it to heart too much. It's me, not you.

In other words I am not finding fault with your post. It is the best present I have received all day. I am finding fault with the air we all must breath.

I'm a word person.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I should probably explain myself about that.

The credit given to leaders comes from them who are led. The ones who are being led almost never believe they are being "misled". I can not think of one example where a person would be misled on purpose. Can you?
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is a good example?

"Martin Luther was not recruited by a group". He found error in the church teachings and published them. People liked what he said so they became his followers.

The early Bible Students found error in the church teachings and published them. People like what they said so became their followers.


He is saying it is not the people who create the leader. The leader creates himself. The people feed the leader so he keeps on leading. It becomes a codependency relationship.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
savagewind said:
What is a good example?

"Martin Luther was not recruited by a group". He found error in the church teachings and published them. People liked what he said so they became his followers.

The early Bible Students found error in the church teachings and published them. People like what they said so became their followers.


He is saying it is not the people who create the leader. The leader creates himself. The people feed the leader so he keeps on leading. It becomes a codependency relationship.
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Huh? Are you sure that was the intent of the post?
 
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