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shalom...JonM said:Shalom, y'all. Looks as if the Jewish community is pretty small around here. Hopefully, I'll make it a little bit bigger. I'm a Reconstructionist (disappointed that there's no Reconstructionist forum), and I'm considering becoming a rabbi. Any other Reconstructionists in the house?
Well, like the Reform movement, the Reconstructionist movement is progressive, but they are distinct; in fact, they're unrelated. Reconstructionism was founded by the writings of Mordecai Kaplan in the mid-20th century as an offshoot of the Conservative movement for progressive Jews dissatisfied with the Reform movement. The Reform movement emphasizes the notion that Jews should be, first and foremost, good citizens of their nation in order to promote the common good, an idea taken from Baruch Spinoza, a philosopher whom I like very much but whom most traditional Jews don't even consider Jewish (he was excommunicated for his radical panentheistic ideas). The way this teaching has manifested itself in the Reform movement is alarming to Reconstructionists; Reform services are very anglicized and, well, Christian-feeling. There is a feeling of assimilation into Christianity-dominated society which is upsetting to many Jews for whom tradition is very important, even if they are ethically very progressive.Deut 13:1 said:shalom...
what exactly is reconstructionst??? sounds like reformed to me.
I'm sorry that you choose to introduce yourself by stigmatizing Liberal Judaism, but that is your right. Perhaps we can discuss Kaplan's transnaturalism someday. Shalom.JonM said:The way this teaching has manifested itself in the Reform movement is alarming to Reconstructionists; Reform services are very anglicized and, well, Christian-feeling. There is a feeling of assimilation into Christianity-dominated society which is upsetting to many Jews for whom tradition is very important, even if they are ethically very progressive.
So who chooses what was meant for the ancient hebrews and meant for today?JonM said:We see the Torah as holy for many reasons, but not because the words came directly from God. Words are human inventions, imperfect symbols for which God has no use. We believe that the words were inspired by God, and that inspiration has held our people together for nearly 6,000 years, and that makes the Torah holy, but we believe that the mitzvot must be updated with the times as people and society evolve. Those commandments that were written down in the five books of Moses were appropriate for their own era, and they represent overall Jewish attitudes that have remained fairly constant, but our cultural context for those attitudes is very different from the context in which the Torah was compiled. With that in mind, Reconstructionists observe the mitzvot with which they are personally comfortable, but the major ethical framework, the moral tenets as close to universal as possible, are as Jewish as those of any other denomination.
It isn't that Halacha isn't important, it's that it's important because it is tradition and not because it is the binding word of God. Tradition is very important to Reconstructionists, because it is what makes Jews a family, and therefore many Reconstructionists intentionally keep as many mitzvot as any other mainstream Jew. Nothing is followed unconditionally; rather, we follow the commandments which our community makes us feel responsible to follow, which is most of the important ones.Avi said:Halacha isn't important? Do Reconstructionists do away with the Mishna? What about the basic inspirations of the Torah such as the 10 commandments; are those followed unconditionally?
The community does. Of course there are grey areas, but Judaism is all about grey areas. For the most part, we see the near-universal importance of most of the commandments, anyway, but we do away with those which clearly offend and discriminate.Deut 13:1 said:So who chooses what was meant for the ancient hebrews and meant for today?
I meant to stigmatize nothing; I merely wished to express my sentiments and those of my congregation on their behalf.Jayhawker Soule said:I'm sorry that you choose to introduce yourself by stigmatizing Liberal Judaism, but that is your right. Perhaps we can discuss Kaplan's transnaturalism someday. Shalom.
Yes and those 'grey' areas are cleared up with intense study into the Oral Law and the surrounding commentaries. IE. Mishnah, Gemora, Midrash. I assume you're at least familiar with those terms. Let's start with something simple, pork. Who chooses if it's okay to eat pork?JonM said:The community does. Of course there are grey areas, but Judaism is all about grey areas. For the most part, we see the near-universal importance of most of the commandments, anyway, but we do away with those which clearly offend and discriminate.
Agreed, but we don't expect congregants to study commentary. We believe that a good, Jewish life can be lived without them. The answer to your question here is very simple: We keep kosher if we're moved to do so, and we don't if we're not, just like any other mainstream denomination. However, I'd be willing to bet that a disproportionately high number of Reconstructionists are vegetarians, as am I, so we keep kosher by default, I suppose, unless you want to get REALLY technical, because I certainly don't search for the kosher label on everything I eat.Deut 13:1 said:Yes and those 'grey' areas are cleared up with intense study into the Oral Law and the surrounding commentaries. IE. Mishnah, Gemora, Midrash. I assume you're at least familiar with those terms. Let's start with something simple, pork. Who chooses if it's okay to eat pork?
No rabbinic supervision = non-kosherJonM said:Agreed, but we don't expect congregants to study commentary. We believe that a good, Jewish life can be lived without them. The answer to your question here is very simple: We keep kosher if we're moved to do so, and we don't if we're not, just like any other mainstream denomination. However, I'd be willing to bet that a disproportionately high number of Reconstructionists are vegetarians, as am I, so we keep kosher by default, I suppose, unless you want to get REALLY technical, because I certainly don't search for the kosher label on everything I eat.
Give me an exact time that the laws of kashrut wore out. Then explain why you arbitarily picked that day.JonM said:Interestingly, though, my dietary choices are based in a way on my religious responsibility. My interpretation of the laws of kashrut is that they were written for their time out of the same health and environmental sustainability concerns that drive me to stop eating meat, and buy organic and fair trade produce whenever possible. Some political party in Israel recently tried to change the kashrut laws to reflect similar concerns. I thought that was pretty cool. It was updating kashrut for a much more complicated time.
Just for you: Recontructionist forum, Shalom.JonM said:I'm a Reconstructionist (disappointed that there's no Reconstructionist forum)...
WOW! I forgot what being on a relatively small forum was like! Or maybe this one just has particularly benevolent moderators! Thank you!Maize said:Just for you: Recontructionist forum, Shalom.
And where have I put forth an argument based on health? Open your version of the Torah to Exodus 23:19, Exodus 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21.Avi said:A good case can be made that the laws of kashrut have mostly nothing to do with health, but rather are to be obeyed because G-d views them as spiritually clean. How is mixing dairy and meat unhealthy? Or eating Pork?
Well, that was out of nowhere. Don't worry, I'm quite familiar with the contention that I'm not a Jew. Usually I just wonder how the dogma machine that says it to me missed that whole "I am your God" commandment thing and decided that a book was God instead.Deut 13:1 said:And where have I put forth an argument based on health? Open your version of the Torah to Exodus 23:19, Exodus 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21.
I love G-d, and G-d says that we need to do commandments in the Torah. When I do what G-d wants me to do, this is one of the ways in which I show my love for him. G-d revealed Himself to people on Sinai and allowed us a relationship with Him. Now, considering the fact that man is nothing, and G-d is everything, on whose terms do you think that this relationship should be on??? G-d's? Or yours?
G-d's terms... Furthermore, G-d gave us the terms of the relationship (His commandments). He basically says, if you love Him, then do His commandments. If you love Him, then express your love on His terms. Because He is G-d, and you are NOT.
That is the essence of Judaism. Having a relationship with G-d on HIS terms, not yours.
So my problem with your approach to having a relationship with G-d and Christianity's general approach is this, you basically are saying, "G-d, those terms You laid out in our relationship, they are too much, we don't need to follow them anymore. Now, before You say anything, G-d, it's important for you to know that we still love You a lot...but not on Your terms. On our terms...Now what are our terms??? Well, G-d, I'm thrilled for You to ask, we looooooooooooove you very,very, very much. We ignore most of the terms on which You established a relationship with us, but we still loooove You.".
This is basically your approach which I find nothing but trash
Were you born of a Jewish mother? Then you're Jewish. Period. Nor have I claimed yer not Jewish, so don't put words in my mouth.JonM said:Well, that was out of nowhere. Don't worry, I'm quite familiar with the contention that I'm not a Jew. Usually I just wonder how the dogma machine that says it to me missed that whole "I am your God" commandment thing and decided that a book was God instead.
I respect your right to worship whatever you want, I just don't give it much validation for the reasons above.JonM said:We have very different views on God, religious life, and Judaism itself. I respect yours, but evidently you don't respect mine.
Oh, I'm interested in listening to your opinion on Torah and what verses mean as well as rabbinic commentaties, just realize, I don't give it much credit when you set the relationship on your terms and not G-ds. Simple as that. That's why I posted what I did, to explain the difference between yer approach and mine.JonM said:I really thought you were interested up to this point.