The spirit problem

flupke · Jan 15, 2006

Many religions (all of them ?) believe in spirits or souls.

Some questions:

Does a fertilized egg cell have a soul ?
Do sperms and egg cells already have pre-souls that merge upon conception ?
Does the soul only 'hop in' at birth ? If yes, that means we can kill fetuses without scrutiny.

If I take a fertilized egg cell out of a womb and let it divide a couple of times, mix up the blastula (lump of cells capable of forming a human being) and re-implant the 64 cells in different wombs, did I just create 63 extra souls ? Am I God ?

Needless to say I don't accept souls or spirits; but I'm curious to see how believers deal with this issue (other than "god will figure it out").

Jaymes · Jan 15, 2006

I doubt a fertilized egg has a soul.
And I highly doubt sperm or eggs have 'pre-souls', since the average male would 'kill' about 40 million pre-souls.
If we do have a soul, I don't think it's a constant thing. Perhaps we have various souls throughout our life.

flupke · Jan 15, 2006

Jensa said:
I doubt a fertilized egg has a soul.
And I highly doubt sperm or eggs have 'pre-souls', since the average male would 'kill' about 40 million pre-souls.
If we do have a soul, I don't think it's a constant thing. Perhaps we have various souls throughout our life.

Same issue remains. At which moment does it 'start' ? And as said, I could create souls if you say it does start somewhere after conception.

Jaymes · Jan 15, 2006

I don't know when it starts.

I doubt that it starts at conception, since losing a fertilized egg before it can implant is more common than most people realize (along with miscarriages only a few days into pregnancy).

flupke · Jan 15, 2006

Jensa said:
I don't know when it starts. I doubt that it starts at conception, since losing a fertilized egg before it can implant is more common than most people realize (along with miscarriages only a few days into pregnancy).

Surely the soul of a 'dead' fertilized egg would go to heaven ? So there shouldn't be a difference as to whether an egg cell dies or whether a 6 month old fetus dies...

But even if the soul starts at a later, e.g. fetal stage, then my test tube experiment still set an option for 63 new souls starting, so I'm still god...

Jaymes · Jan 15, 2006

You'd be a god if you could put the soul in there.

I don't believe in heaven, so where the soul goes is a nonissue for me.

Master Vigil · Jan 16, 2006

flupke said:
Many religions (all of them ?) believe in spirits or souls.

I wonder if my definition fits. We'll see.

First I will give you my definition of "soul." Energy. In any form, shape, etc... Spirit is what gives life, and causes change. It is what causes the heart to pump, the synapses to fire, the cells to divide, etc... It is this energy that is spirit. I also don't believe that the soul is constantly in the same state, for the only constant is change. As we are not the same person as we were yesterday, our spirit is surely not the same as well. So, from that... on your your questions...

Some questions:

Does a fertilized egg cell have a soul ?

The energy that caused the fertilation, and the change after fertilation is it's spirit. So yes.

Do sperms and egg cells already have pre-souls that merge upon conception ?

The energy that allows the sperm to merge with the egg, and the energy that allowed the egg to be fertilized was spirit. So yes.

Does the soul only 'hop in' at birth ? If yes, that means we can kill fetuses without scrutiny.

No spirit does not "hop in" at birth.

If I take a fertilized egg cell out of a womb and let it divide a couple of times, mix up the blastula (lump of cells capable of forming a human being) and re-implant the 64 cells in different wombs, did I just create 63 extra souls ? Am I God ?

No, you are another product of change. Which is a product of spirit (chi). Which is a product of Tao (god).

Needless to say I don't accept souls or spirits; but I'm curious to see how believers deal with this issue (other than "god will figure it out").

As you can see, I don't accept the general idea of souls or spirits either. But that doesn't mean that I can't have my own theory now does it?

Mike182 · Jan 16, 2006

my pagan beliefs kick in now

i believe that person dies, soul is released form body to float the spirit wrolds

when a man and a woman create a featus, as soon as the sperm and egg join, the spirit energies from both the man and woman fuse together, and that spark of energy draws a certain spirit into the featus, to grow and change and adapt as the new life forms

i believe the soul is brought in at conception
i believe the soul grows and learns, cycles, then grows and learns some more

ChrisP · Jan 16, 2006

flupke said:
Same issue remains. At which moment does it 'start' ? And as said, I could create souls if you say it does start somewhere after conception.

I don't believe in souls, I believe in spiritual energy.

We are all conduits of this energy, and due to our time and place that we exist we are more/less open to particular types of energy which creates our personalities. This is particularly important for birth time and date.

K you can label me a fruit cake nutcase now.

sandy whitelinger · Jan 16, 2006

flupke said:
Many religions (all of them ?) believe in spirits or souls.

Some questions:
Does a fertilized egg cell have a soul ?

There is Scripture to suggest that souls come from the father;

Exodus 1:5a "And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls..."

Feathers in Hair · Jan 16, 2006

So having a Y chromosone is what bestows the soul-giving ability? As if some people needed another reason to think being male is the same as being closer to divinity.

Unfortunately, I'm with those that said 'I don't know' on this one. I think, if a person has a soul, that it incarnates whenever it chooses, whether before conception, at conception, at birth, or even later on in life.

So, in your example, I don't think that makes you a god any more than you are already. If divinity was bestowed simply by the act of creating physical life, everyone capable of reproduction would be gods, and I know too many 'infertile' persons that I consider to have divine attributes to say that this is so.

fromthe heart · Jan 16, 2006

I have to applaude this thread...it made me think...got the brain cells working...lol

To answer the question from my beliefs: I believe that our Spirits are known by God prior to their coming into conception. I feel life begins at the first beat of the heart...to me this is when the electrical energy clicks on to cause the rest of the process of growth.

Now as for dividing up the cells to produce a certian many different fetuses...If God gives these life He gives them a Spirit/soul...did you become God for doing that...no you can divide and transplant but only God can give it a spirit/soul. Someone mentioned spirit/soul upon death..The predestined ones/saved soul goes to Paradise. You can speak of all the scientific forms for whatever but I know God is the director of all life and that even the aborted souls have a place in Paradise as for whether souls are recycled I do not believe in more than one life per soul. Just the same as ALL finger prints differ so do we as souls.
That's my input correct or not...that's what I feel :jam:

sandy whitelinger · Jan 16, 2006

FeathersinHair said:
So having a Y chromosone is what bestows the soul-giving ability? As if some people needed another reason to think being male is the same as being closer to divinity.........So, in your example, I don't think that makes you a god any more than you are already.

You are the one who seems to think that this attributes some form of god-like quality to a man. What the scriptures imply is that when Adam was created he carried all the souls of man-kind in him. This could be the explaination of why the knowlege of good and evil was passed into all men by the eating of the forbidden fruit. It has nothing to do with any concept that being a male imbues one with the ability to create a soul.

nutshell · Jan 16, 2006

I would say we don't know when the "soul" or "spirit" enters the physical body, be it egg and sperm or infant at birth.

It's my opinion, however, that it doesn't matter. Regardless of when the spirit enters the body, the physical body is a "temple" for that spirit and has the potential to progress. To kill this body is wrong, in my opinion, even if the spirit hasn't entered it yet.

gnomon · Jan 16, 2006

Master Vigil said:
I wonder if my definition fits. We'll see.

First I will give you my definition of "soul." Energy. In any form, shape, etc... Spirit is what gives life, and causes change. It is what causes the heart to pump, the synapses to fire, the cells to divide, etc... It is this energy that is spirit. I also don't believe that the soul is constantly in the same state, for the only constant is change. As we are not the same person as we were yesterday, our spirit is surely not the same as well. So, from that... on your your questions......

I'm confused on one point. Is the energy which flows through copper wiring also spirit? Or just chemical energy involved in the growth of life forms?

If so, is it all part of one unified spiritual force?

Feathers in Hair · Jan 16, 2006

sandy whitelinger said:
You are the one who seems to think that this attributes some form of god-like quality to a man. What the scriptures imply is that when Adam was created he carried all the souls of man-kind in him. This could be the explaination of why the knowlege of good and evil was passed into all men by the eating of the forbidden fruit. It has nothing to do with any concept that being a male imbues one with the ability to create a soul.

I do apologize.

I saw " There is Scripture to suggest that souls come from the father;" and thought that it thus meant that souls were a patrilineal thing. (Also, just to clarify, the last part of the post was not directed as a reference to the scripture. I was trying to add that I think that we all share a bit of Divinity.)

Again, I'm sorry that I did not understand the difference. Thank you for clearing it up!

Dentonz · Jan 16, 2006

I don't know at what time, but John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb according to Luke 1:15

Avi · Jan 16, 2006

All this talk about a physical conception of a soul or spirit is a non-issue. It doesn't matter how the soul is created or passed or replicated. The soul and body are separate, they don't affect nor interact with each other. I believe that the soul is the embodiment of our spiritual selves, similar to how our body is the embodiment of our physical selves. G-d, for all I care, could personally (as far as that word can go to describe the Divine Presence) plant our soul into us. Suffice to say, we have a soul and it exists, where it comes from is a non-issue entirely since we are trying to determine a physical relationship between the body and the soul.

flupke · Jan 16, 2006

Master Vigil said:
I wonder if my definition fits. We'll see.

First I will give you my definition of "soul." Energy. In any form, shape, etc... Spirit is what gives life, and causes change. It is what causes the heart to pump, the synapses to fire, the cells to divide, etc... It is this energy that is spirit. I also don't believe that the soul is constantly in the same state, for the only constant is change. As we are not the same person as we were yesterday, our spirit is surely not the same as well. So, from that... on your your questions...

Chemical energy in the form of ATP (made by oxidative fosforylation) and ion-gradients are what drives most biological processes, including the fusion of cells. Are you saying that 'souls' are that type of energy ?
If you say yes, then I think you're a scientist, not a spiritualist

flupke · Jan 16, 2006

Avi said:
All this talk about a physical conception of a soul or spirit is a non-issue. It doesn't matter how the soul is created or passed or replicated. The soul and body are separate, they don't affect nor interact with each other.

If they don't interact or depend on one another, then where is your soul ? On Mars ?
If they're independent, then how could you KNOW (physical process) anything about it ?

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