Moslem boy beaten to death in Wales

stephenw said:

British people are currently rioting and trying to murder policemen because they are enthusiastic about their Britishness.
This reflects something of the nature of Britishness and British people need to wake up to the fact that there is something inherently wrong with Britishness because it promotes hate.
Do British people know this?
How are they going to address it?


Such an argument is wholly in line with the one you are making here oldbadger. In the example I offered, Britishness motivates murder and violence. That indicates a problem with Britishness that British people should address.

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Hello again.......!

When people divert to other arguments and discussions..............?

I will leave you to open a thread about our problems in Northern Ireland, and I for one would be there, discussing this centuries old problem. I would not put my head in the sand. I would not try and divert if somebody showed me something that I either did not know, or had failed to mention.

May I invite you to read a fuller list of benefits that fall upon a parent to teaches their child to Hafiz?

More on motivating parents to teach their infants the Koran (to Hafiz)...........

2.The child and it's parents moreover the whole lineage is graced by honour and diginity.
4.Parents will be given a crown on the Day of Judgement, whichs light will be more than that of the sun.
8.By the intercession of a Hafiz 10 persons from his family are granted salvation. (provided that they are Muslims)


Secondly:
With regard to his relatives and descendents, there is evidence his parents that they will be clothed with garments which far surpass everything to be found in this world, and that will only be because they took care of and taught their child. Even if they themselves were ignorant, Allaah will honour them because of their child. But the one who prevented his child from learning the Qur’aan, he will be one of those who will be deprived.
It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘The Qur’aan will come on the Day of Resurrection like a pale man saying to its companion, “Do you recognize me? I am the one who made you stay up at night and made you thirsty during the day…” Then he will be given dominion in his right hand and eternity in his left, and a crown of dignity will be placed upon his head, and his parents will be clothed with garments which far surpass everything to be found in this world. They will say, “O Lord, how did we earn this.” It will be said to them, “Because you taught your child the Qur’aan.”’”



And so.......... no pressure there, then.................!

oldbadger said:

And so.......... no pressure there, then.................!

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No pressure at all.
My point was not to divert. My point is that people who are members of a given group behaving in an awful manner does not mean that the group they hold to is responsible for their behaviour.

Regarding the benefits of learning the Quran by rote - I am indifferent to these benefits.
To be a muslim is to believe that there is no God but God and that Muhammad was His Prophet. That's it. I am not required to believe in the benefits of knowing the Quran by heart. I need not be a literalist, I need not even be especially devout. I believe that the cosmos is Gods first and primordial revelation. It is clear to me that Islam is about love. That which is against love is not what I regard as Islamic.
This tragedy has nothing to do with what I understand Islam to be about.
Your view of Islam seems at odds with mine. That's fine but the fact remains, to be muslim is to believe in the Shahada - that's it.

stephenw said:

No pressure at all.
My point was not to divert. My point is that people who are members of a given group behaving in an awful manner does not mean that the group they hold to is responsible for their behaviour.

Regarding the benefits of learning the Quran by rote - I am indifferent to these benefits.
To be a muslim is to believe that there is no God but God and that Muhammad was His Prophet. That's it. I am not required to believe in the benefits of knowing the Quran by heart. I need not be a literalist, I need not even be especially devout. I believe that the cosmos is Gods first and primordial revelation. It is clear to me that Islam is about love. That which is against love is not what I regard as Islamic.
This tragedy has nothing to do with what I understand Islam to be about.
Your view of Islam seems at odds with mine. That's fine but the fact remains, to be muslim is to believe in the Shahada - that's it.

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It is not about what we believe about the Quran. It is about every mother and father who feels pressure in themselves to make their children Muslim. Why have you made it about you?

It is not only a problem in Islam. The Jehovah's Witnesses also feel pressure to make their children into believers. There are scriptures that are repeated often as "food at the right time" among JWs.

Deuteronomy 6:6,7
These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.

Ephesians 6:4 Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.

Proverbs 29:17 Discipline your son, and he will give you peace; he will bring delight to your soul.

Proverbs 23:24 The father of a righteous man has great joy; he who has a wise son delights in him.

There are also consequences to be avoided that most JW are taught to believe.

Proverbs 10:1 The proverbs of Solomon: A wise son brings joy to his father, but a foolish son grief to his mother.
Proverbs 15:20 A wise son brings joy to his father, but a foolish man despises his mother.
Proverbs 17:21 To have a fool for a son brings grief; there is no joy for the father of a fool.
Proverbs 17:25 A foolish son brings grief to his father and bitterness to the one who bore him.
Proverbs 29:15 The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.

These are all fine when taken with a grain of salt. What people do is they take theses things to heart. Now if loving YHWH or if loving Allah is filling the heart then these things can not control a person's actions. But loving God does not come in a day. It takes time to know God. So what do people do in the meantime? They practice the words they believe are YHWH or Allah.

The problem is parents who do not know how to love God, to love self, and to love their children will falter.

Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold Matthew 24:12

I'd like to add a commentary of my own. Social Services is secular. Parents who would beat god into their children will not listen to secular wisdom. The wisdom that very religious people will listen to is religious. It is not the government's fault. It is the religious communities' fault. It is fellow believers that believers listen to.

Does anyone know the difference between a religion and a religious community? That is my troll thought for the day (I am hoping).

savagewind said:

It is not about what we believe about the Quran. It is about every mother and father who feels pressure in themselves to make their children Muslim.

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What do you mean by Muslim?

savagewind said:

Why have you made it about you?

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I haven't. I responded to an invitation from another poster

May I invite you to read a fuller list of benefits that fall upon a parent to teaches their child to Hafiz?

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savagewind said:

It is not only a problem in Islam. .......

Does anyone know the difference between a religion and a religious community?

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What do you understand by the term Islam?

ssainhu said:

She beat him to death. The fact she was even hitting him for not reciting what she wanted him to is another sign of mental illness.

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No, it's not.

stephenw said:

What do you understand by the term Islam?

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I don't know. Please ask Lady B.

I'm kidding. OK

Islam means the teachings of Mohammad to follow them. It is believing the prophet Mohammad is he who knows the best way to worship God the Highest One

It is the first time I wrote Islam. I did it because it is what I read of Lady B's posts. I read all the posts.
I do not read all Lady B's posts. That is not what I said. When I enter a debate I read all the posts.

savagewind said:

I don't know. Please ask Lady B.

I'm kidding. OK

Islam means the teachings of Mohammad to follow them. It is believing the prophet Mohammad is he who knows the best way to worship God the Highest One

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That's not how I understand it. Islam is a lot more nuanced than that to my mind. Moreover, there are a myriad of currents within Islam all pulling in different directions.
To my mind, Islam is as far from a monolith as is possible to imagine so therefore suggesting Islam is a problem that contributed to this childs murder is absurd.
Whether you agree with my point or not - have I made the point clear?

stephenw said:

What do you mean by Muslim?

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I know the text book version. It seems you know more about it. Please tell us that Muslim does not mean a person who follows the teachings of the religion Islam. Because that is what the majority believes it means. Does it?

stephenw said:

That's not how I understand it. Islam is a lot more nuanced than that to my mind. Moreover, there are a myriad of currents within Islam all pulling in different directions.
To my mind, Islam is as far from a monolith as is possible to imagine so therefore suggesting Islam is a problem that contributed to this childs murder is absurd.
Whether you agree with my point or not - have I made the point clear?

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That is how you are making it about yourself. Someone will read the scriptures that oldbadger researched and take them literally. Where in Islam is there a direct order not to take the words literally?

You are seemingly saying you are too smart to be fooled. Because you are too smart means everyone is too smart? No, of course not. You are making it about yourself. Do you have a son?

savagewind said:

I know the text book version. It seems you know more about it. Please tell us that Muslim does not mean a person who follows the teachings of the religion Islam. Because that is what the majority believes it means. Does it?

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To my mind muslim indicates that one believes that there is no God but God and that Muhammad was His Prophet.
What constitutes the teachings of Islam?
The Islam that I hold to teaches peace and love. To suggest that child murder is a conssequence of the teachings I know is absurd.

stephenw said:

To my mind muslim indicates that one believes that there is no God but God and that Muhammad was His Prophet.
What constitutes the teachings of Islam?
The Islam that I hold to teaches peace and love. To suggest that child murder is a conssequence of the teachings I know is absurd.

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Everyone should know that a beating can cause death but everyone does not know that. Some people, young people like the mother of the child, can not know everything. She may have believed that if it was not her purpose to kill the boy, then of course she wouldn't.

If you backed you big SUV out of the driveway before checking behind you so hit your son and he died you would be a murderer. It is true.

savagewind said:

That is how you are making it about yourself. Someone will read the scriptures that oldbadger researched and take them literally. Where in Islam is there a direct order not to take the words literally?

You are seemingly saying you are too smart to be fooled. Because you are too smart means everyone is too smart? No, of course not. You are making it about yourself. Do you have a son?

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Where is it ordered to take them literally?
To say that I consider myself too smart seems more than a little unfair, below the belt. I am a muslim and I am offering my views as to what it means to be a muslim and what islam means in order to counter the narrow view of islam being advanced in this thread, if you consider this invalid why so?
No I have daughters, but I don't see the relevance, care to expand?

stephenw said:

Where is it ordered to take them literally?
To say that I consider myself too smart seems more than a little unfair, below the belt. I am a muslim and I am offer my views as to what it means to be a muslim and what islam means in order to counter the narrow view of islam being advanced in this thread, if you consider this invalid why so?
No I have daughters, but I don't see the relevance, care to expand?

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She is not you. You see the spirit behind the words. That is good. Maybe you do not even know the words oldbadger shared. I do not care. The woman in question might have not been taught the spirit behind the words. You see she is young. Why are there words if they are not to be obeyed? That is a real question.

savagewind said:

Why are there words if they are not to be obeyed? That is a real question.

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Words exist to convey meaning and meanings should in my view be investigated, challenged and contested.

stephenw said:

Words exist to convey meaning and meanings should in my view be investigated, challenged and contested.

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You are right. But everyone does not do that. Very very few people do. That is the problem. What is the solution?

savagewind said:

That is the problem. What is the solution?

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I agree that is the problem. But it is not a problem unique to Islam, far from it. As to the solution - I don't know .

I find it really strange and frightening when people use their religion to punish their children. I watched an episode of wife swap and Christian family were on the show. The parents would make their children write lines of the bible as punishment if they misbehave. That would just make your children hate your religion.

Also for savagewind: when my mum took my sister to the Kingdom Hall as a child and she would play up, an elder and friend adviced her not to smack her because then she would associate the Kingdom Hall with punishment and not want to go. He said to take her in the hallway and tell her off and explain why she has to keep quiet. Most likely that person who told you to smack your son was smacked as a child and smack their own child, I find some religious people can be such busy bodies they give such bad advice even sometimes over stepping the parents and telling off children that aren't theirs. Of course you're not evil every parent makes mistakes. But in the case of this woman she never made a mistake she abused her child repeatedly until she eventually killed him.