The Yeast of the Pharisees

Rise, you have said to me "We are told very explicitly that the law does not have the power to transform people,"..."that transformation comes by faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit."..."The law is powerless to change anyone, it can only show them the need to change."

I think that King David has said otherwise, that the Law of Moses has changed him, renewed him. I remember Paul tells Timothy that 'The scriptures' make him wise for purposes of salvation. I truly have read Romans 7 and Romans 8, and I've no problem with you and Shermana discussing the importance of Mosaic Law. My own position is that the Mosaic Law is a path for a Jewish person, and it is a valid path. They have charge of the oracles of God, says Paul. (Romans 3:2) The 'Oracles of God' might refer to the Torah, the Tanach, possibly the Talmud. I'm not sure what Paul's including there, but he definitely affirms the Mosaic Law in my opinion. What he says is that to become circumcised would give you some advantages, but you'd have to start keeping the whole Mosaic Law. Reading only Romans 7 & 8 can give you the false impression that Paul doesn't believe keeping the Mosaic Law is still important, but apparently he still thinks that its important for at least some people to do it.

I should speak to your point that "transformation comes by faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit." That particular wording can be confusing in isolation. This same transformation is described: "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2), "Do not be drunk with wine...instead be filled with the spirit." (Ephesians 5:18), "to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word" (Ephesians 5:26),

These are just a few of the many references that show being filled with the spirit means taking in scripture. It is something you can do, because you are told to do it. Its not like somebody else can do it for you; usually. Usually you do it yourself just like you eat or drink for yourself; so then your faith in Christ is transforming you by this means.

Rise said:

What is the law of the Lord, is it just a list of narrow legal statues? Or are those statues meant to be a guide to point us to Christ, as Paul tells us?

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Neither of the two choices is worded in a way that is consistent. As for your second choice: Paul called the 'Law' a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but at the same time he has affirmed the value of the Mosaic Law and in the same letter (Romans). I truly think that the Law can never be a thing of the past, and even though you and I aren't going through the motions doesn't mean its not important for someone else to do it. Paul has also affirmed the importance of believers studying the Law, regardless of whether he has them wearing tassels or not.

Paul does not tell us that the spirit is a supplement that allows us to keep the mosaic statues and regulations.

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I believe that is not what I meant. Paul seems to think that we, Gentiles, are not merely living by laws as we once did but now are alive by living the law of the spirit. At the same time he does not think Jews were ever merely living by regulations, which he affirms by talking about the many 'Benefits' of circumcision in the present tense. Paul also, it is recorded, continues to enter the Temple while it stands, offering sacrifices and performing ceremonies of cleansing. That is why I think he makes a distinction between Gentile law and Mosaic law. Understandably Shermana does not see it this way, because he thinks Noahic Law is a later Rabbinic interpretation. Who knows, but Paul seems to contradict himself if that is the case. Additionally Hebrews 4:12 proclaims that the Word of God is Living and Active, another reason to think the Mosaic Law brings salvation to those who keep it. If it is alive, then we should not call it 'Dead.'

Nowhere in anything Jesus teaches, or what Paul teaches, do I find any implication that deep study of the mosaic law leads to salvation.

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Ok, but just because you don't find it doesn't mean you're right. Paul says "The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know." (I Corinthians 8:2)

Instead, we find Paul telling us that the only thing the law did was make us aware of the need for grace to actually abide by the law.

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I know, and yet he says it is valuable and important in Romans 3:2 to be circumcised. He appears to contradict himself if he's talking about the same Law. If, on the other hand, he is referring to two sets of Law or else distinguishes between Mosaic Law and non-mosaic Human Law, then I can make better sense of what he is saying. Did not Israelites see Mosaic Law as superior to all other Law? I think they did.

There is no contradiction, the laws are useful however shouldn't take precedence over the idea of 'the law of Liberty' etc., likewise the laws are not forbidden to Christians, but merely optional
Some laws are purely cultural (Hebraic) using common sense we can conclude that these would be less important to people coming from other cultures

disciple said:

There is no contradiction, the laws are useful however shouldn't take precedence over the idea of 'the law of Liberty' etc., likewise the laws are not forbidden to Christians, but merely optional
Some laws are purely cultural (Hebraic) using common sense we can conclude that these would be less important to people coming from other cultures

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That makes sense to me, too. I'd add that Paul seems to think its important that somebody keep the Mosaic Law, though he thinks requiring all believers to get circumcised and keep the law would be a nullification of Jesus death.

disciple said:

There is no contradiction, the laws are useful however shouldn't take precedence over the idea of 'the law of Liberty' etc., likewise the laws are not forbidden to Christians, but merely optional
Some laws are purely cultural (Hebraic) using common sense we can conclude that these would be less important to people coming from other cultures

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What is the "Law of liberty" exactly and does that law involve being able to "break and teach to break the least of these commandments"?

Shermana to disciple said:

What is the "Law of liberty" exactly and does that law involve being able to "break and teach to break the least of these commandments"?

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I also look forward to disciple's response -- just putting my oar in. I know I've been pushing the 'Two Law' idea, but I'm not discussing that in this response and am strictly talking responding to your (possibly rhetorical?) question.

No I don't think it teaches to break the least of the commandments. The phrase appears in James 1:25 and in NIV is "perfect law that gives freedom." I feel the word 'Perfect' is an allusion to the same idea as is in Psalm 19:7 which says "The Law of the LORD is perfect...making wise the simple." It also brings to mind the spirit (of wisdom) which the LORD partly took from Moses to place upon Israel's elders.(Numbers 11:25) That 'Wisdom' to help the elders to judge is to me a connection which connects the spirit placed upon the elders with the wisdom from the Law of the LORD. When the LORD places this spirit upon the elders it may refer to the passing on of the Pentateuch, either verbally or in writing. The main thing is that the law makes the person 'Wise'. Now what is wisdom for if not to give a person discernment in areas where the law is unclear? That is why the Elders were given the 'Spirit', so I feel there's a connection here. That spirit of wisdom is the 'Perfect law of liberty' to which James refers.

Example: The written law says its ok to pick kernels in a neighbor's field but not ok to fill a basket without asking. (Deuteronomy 23:25) This can teach several things that aren't directly written, and I think those things would be part of the 'Perfect Law'.

I think that King David has said otherwise, that the Law of Moses has changed him, renewed him.

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I remember Paul tells Timothy that 'The scriptures' make him wise for purposes of salvation.

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Where?

My own position is that the Mosaic Law is a path for a Jewish person, and it is a valid path.

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What he says is that to become circumcised would give you some advantages, but you'd have to start keeping the whole Mosaic Law.

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That's a misreading of Romans.

In Romans 2, which is what you are referencing, he is saying that the Law has value if it is kept, but he says this only to call attention to the fact that the Jews haven't actually kept the law, so it cannot save them.
In Romans 3 he says that no one can actually keep the law, and they never could.
Then he transitions into explaining how Christ solved this problem, and carries on in the next two chapters about salvation by faith.

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the
law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when
Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the
law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting
thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you
are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20
an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you then who teach
others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do
you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24 For, as
it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So,
if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then he who
is physically[c] uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code[d] and circumcision but break the law. 28
For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and
circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.


Romans 3
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?
5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us?
(I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7
9 What then? Are we Jews[a] any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under
sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole
world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being[c] will be justified in his sight, since through the law
comes knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the
righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall
short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Reading only Romans 7 & 8 can give you the false impression that Paul doesn't believe keeping the Mosaic Law is still important,
but apparently he still thinks that its important for at least some people to do it.

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Galatians leaves no doubt as to position the mosaic covenant holds for us:

Galatians 5
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself
through love.

14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Galatians 6
12 Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to
avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised
that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through
which[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts
is the new creation.

I should speak to your point that "transformation comes by faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit." That particular wording can
be confusing in isolation. This same transformation is described: "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2),

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Renewing of the mind comes by setting your mind on the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set
their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and
peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who
are in the flesh cannot please God.

"Do not be drunk with wine...instead be filled with the spirit." (Ephesians 5:18), "to make her holy, cleansing her by the
washing with water through the word" (Ephesians 5:26),
These are just a few of the many references that show being filled with the spirit means taking in scripture.

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Those two verses aren't connected with each other. They are two seperate thoughts.

And, besides, Christ is the Word (John 1)
Christ told us to abide in Him, through the Spirit, and by doing that we bear righteous fruit (John 15)

Additionally Hebrews 4:12 proclaims that the Word of God is Living and Active, another reason to think the Mosaic Law brings
salvation to those who keep it. If it is alive, then we should not call it 'Dead.'

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Salvation came by faith under the old covenant, not ones ability to keep the law. Because if that were the case, then nobody would have
been saved.


Hebrews 11
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous,

5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken
he was commended as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must
believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household.
By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.


Romans 4
What then shall we say was gained by[a] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has
something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as
righteousness.”


Romans 5
5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also
obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we[c] rejoice[d] in hope of the glory of God.

Rise said:

Where?

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Oh, David says the Law renews in Psalm 19:7. NIV translates it as "Reviving the soul."

Paul is talking to Timothy in II Timotheus 3:15, where Paul tells his son in the faith "...you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."

That's a misreading of Romans.

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It could be, but if I can misread it than so can you. We are both trying to read the same thing. Its not like we're reading two different texts.

In Romans 2, which is what you are referencing, he is saying that the Law has value if it is kept, but he says this only to call attention to the fact that the Jews haven't actually kept the law, so it cannot save them.
In Romans 3 he says that no one can actually keep the law, and they never could.
Then he transitions into explaining how Christ solved this problem, and carries on in the next two chapters about salvation by faith.

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He says 'Circumcision' has value and much 'In every way', and he doesn't limit it to 'Perfect circumcisions' or 'Perfectly kept laws'. I gather that circumcision represents a lifelong process (called heart circumcision) that begins in childhood but continues throughout the life of the male. Paul refers (in Romans 4:7) to (Psalm 32:1) when he says "Blessed is the man whose sins are covered."

he says this only to call attention to the fact that the Jews haven't actually kept the law, so it cannot save them.

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But its gentiles who need to know this, because Jews already do; and Paul isn't suggesting they need to know it. Jews already know that keeping the law 'Perfectly' cannot save them. Paul is not revealing new information but revealing to you, the gentile, already basic components of Jewish faith. He is including you in the household of faith, feeding you basic milk like a new baby. You keep projecting ignorance onto Jews, and I think this creates a misunderstanding about the purpose of the letter. Moses law was meant to transform the individual keeping it and successfully so. It was gentiles who had the attitude of 'Bust the deal and face the wheel' in our laws. It was Jews who believed 'Mercy and truth must kiss.' Approaching Romans without this very trivially basic information causes misunderstanding, because its like listening to half of a phone conversation. It is a complete cultural gap that cannot be bridged easily. I was surprised to find this out, but it is very much the case. Its not what you hear commonly preached, yet it is true. I'm not trying to make you angry, but you really should be.

Galatians 5
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

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Yes, but this does not contradict what I've been saying. All one has to do is read the prophets, psalms, proverbs, pentateuch and its expressly obvious what Paul is saying, already. I realize Jesus was very hard on the Pharisees, speaking in a prophetic style; but his criticism is not an introduction to their faith or to the law. His criticism is not where you can begin to understand the Mosaic Law. You start with the law, and then you might make sense of his criticism.

Renewing of the mind comes by setting your mind on the things of the Spirit.

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Yes, a topic already discussed thoroughly in the Tanach a fact which Paul, the author, has wrongly assumed you to know already. You are of the impression that this was something Jews didn't know about, so of course I can understand why you'd think them to be unsaved. It isn't the case, however.

Salvation came by faith under the old covenant, not ones ability to keep the law. Because if that were the case, then nobody would have been saved.

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Again, this wasn't news but olds. The news was that the household of faith was being opened up to a larger group than just law-keepers. (In my opinion of what Paul is saying.)