Something I've mentioned in passing in several threads, but never really explored in detail, is some statements Paul makes in his letters to lying and using deception to gain converts. I'll post these here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
2 Corinthians 12:16
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
This is the 3rd visit so how did the other two go, was deception not used to open the door in the verse below, a practice done ones as far as the Bible recorded it.
Covering the events of the first two visits would need to be done to clarify what that actually means.
Ac:17:23:
For as I passed by,
and beheld your devotions,
I found an altar with this inscription,
TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship,
him declare I unto you.
Ac:17:24:
God that made the world and all things therein,
seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth,
dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Originally Posted by
1 Corinthians 9:19-22
For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.
How is being someone that the other can relate to being dishonest, especially when it would have been the Spirit choosing to deliver the message inn that style?
Also, look at the three narratives of his conversion experience in Acts 9:3-7, Acts 22:6-10, and Acts 26:12-20. There are contradictions in these three narratives. Even the great western saint Jerome said of Paul:
The voice heard by the men could have been the opening sentence and the rest was private for Saul alone. The light was seen by some but not by others there, perhaps the men that fell down also did not see the light
Ac:9:3:
And as he journeyed,
he came near Damascus:
and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Ac:9:7:
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless,
hearing a voice,
but seeing no man.
Ac:22:9:
And they that were with me saw indeed the light,
and were afraid;
but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
Ac:26:13:
At midday,
O king,
I saw in the way a light from heaven, a
bove the brightness of the sun,
shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
Ac:26:14:
And when we were all fallen to the earth,
I heard a voice speaking unto me,
and saying in the Hebrew tongue,
Saul,
Saul,
why persecutest thou me?
it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
So, how can we trust one who admits to using deceit, and not only that, but even those who followed his words and teachings admitted he did so? Can we really trust the letters of Paul to support any kind of spirituality if this is the case? And not only that, but later church fathers followed his lead, in finding great use for deception and lying, as long as they gained things for their god:
Someone who admits to deciet is being honest, the one who doesn't own up is the one not to be trusted.
Care to expand on the other deception and lies, not that I disagree, after all it is in prophecy about the Roman Church.
Da:8:12:
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression,
and
it cast down the truth to the ground;
and it practised,
and prospered.
So, in Clements opinion, even if something is true, if it contradicts their faith, it's not to be regarded as true.
Confessing a deception is telling the truth is it not?
Even the great reformer Martin Luther said:
Is this the faith that was inspired by Paul? One of deceit and lies, in order to gain for their god? The Bible, in other places, and even in Paul's letters, warns against lying, using deceitful speech, and misleading others. What are we to make of all of this? Is this the kind of example we want to follow for spirituality? How about today's Christian leaders, are we to trust them? I'll let another quote from St. Jerome illustrate this point:
Paul's confession to the flock fulfilled this verse did it not?
M't:5:23:
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar,
and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
M't:5:24:
Leave there thy gift before the altar,
and go thy way;
first be reconciled to thy brother,
and then come and offer thy gift.
The Bible says that "satan is the father of lies". Jesus even mentioned that it might be possible for the antichrist to deceive the apostles, just as they had been done by Paul. Is it possible that Paul was the one Jesus had in mind when he said that satan is the father of lies? What does this mean for Christianity, which is mostly built on the teachings of Paul, who (and this is for another thread), contradicted Jesus on many matters?
It means your premise is full of holes as Paul corrected his errors, Jews failing to update the diet changes is deception in practice so who is following Satan?
