The Yeast of the Pharisees

Before I address all that, 1 Cor 14:26 does NOT say that having multiple interpretations is a good thing. It's talking about having a translation for the person who has the gift of tongues.

This is one of a few verses the NLT is handy for explaining the meaning:

New Living Translation (©2007)
Well, my brothers and sisters, let's summarize. When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you.

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I Find the idea that there's multiple possible acceptable translations to be absolutely ludicrous. The goal is to figure out what was originally intended, not what you want it to mean.

Shermana said:

I Find the idea that there's multiple possible acceptable translations to be absolutely ludicrous. The goal is to figure out what was originally intended, not what you want it to mean.

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Perhaps 'Multiple interpretations' is too confusing a phrase, but submission to each other is another way of putting it. I can understand how perhaps I have not phrased it properly or that it simply seems far fetched, but there are many examples of this principle in action. Advice given to certain women is the classic one. II Peter 1:1 a woman whose husband is not a believer can win him over by being submissive to him. (I presume it is someone who does not believe in submitting). Where normally people think "That could never work!" Somehow submitting to each other and allowing for multiple interpretations -- works. Does it mean all interpretations are correct? No, I'm not suggesting they're all correct. I'm suggesting "Let God be true and every man a liar that he may be proved right in his judgements." Glory to God, in other words.

Do you recall the ancient vision that Daniel interpreted in which the kingdom of God started with a stone "Not made with hands" that would crush all other kingdoms and fill the earth? That stone made without hands is like bread made without yeast, without your or my input. That is so hard for us to accept. Christians are told to submit to each other, to God, to authorities, to masters, to kings and to every institution of mankind set up over them. That's why early Christians (Nazarines?) would not go to war. Submission is and was superbly important. Knowledge and brains were and are much less important.

1 Cor 14:26 does NOT say that having multiple interpretations is a good thing. It's talking about having a translation for the person who has the gift of tongues.

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Ok, well I can see that, yet buried in the verse another gift is the gift of revelations. Revelations. "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church." The emphasis is always upon strengthening the church. What we have nowadays with people dividing churches over disagreements about the meaning of 'Tongues' is a bad sign. "Pride comes before a fall." I submit it as another evidence that this was the 'Yeast' -- this insistence upon getting everyone making the same sounds with their mouths.

Brickjectivity said:

In Matthew 16 Jesus warns his disciples against the 'Yeast of the Pharisees'. I put forward, imply and defend that the yeast of the Pharisees had to do with their emphasis upon discipleship and their stringent requirements. They were like clones multiplying like the loaves and fishes multiplied, like yeast multiplies in a loaf.

They always would work very hard on their disciples to teach them exactly everything they knew, but Jesus said they made their disciples worse than themselves. This has parallels with today's ridiculous emphasis upon discipleship among the various Christian factions who rely upon creeds. Its very unbiblical to do that and also unbiblical to make creeds a condition of fellowship. This was never a part of the gospel, so I put forward.

Care to discuss? The Bible defends my point of view.

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Jesus didn't say shun the Pharisees, but don't get poisoned by them.
Denominations can get along and be respectful while still disagreeing.
1 Peter 3:15-16. Now, if someone is trying to kill you like some of those Pharisees, you don't go over their house for dinner.

E.R.M. said:

Jesus didn't say shun the Pharisees, but don't get poisoned by them.

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Literally he said to watch out for the 'yeast of the Pharisees,' but he wasn't talking about bread.

Denominations can get along and be respectful while still disagreeing.

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"No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat," (I Corinthians 11:19-20)

1 Peter 3:15-16. Now, if someone is trying to kill you like some of those Pharisees, you don't go over their house for dinner.

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Jesus did eat with Pharisees, including prominent Pharisees, civilly disputing and disagreeing with them. (Luke 14:1) Pharisees were not the type to poison people. The Iscariots would be another matter, but his own disciple, Judas, was one. Jesus was put to death because the high priest prophesied (by the Holy Spirit) that he should die for the good of the nation. (John 11:50) It was not just Pharisees that Jesus opposed but Sadducees, Priests and all the various sects. All of them wondered how he was able to do miracles, because they thought he was teaching an evil thing. They really, really thought divisions were right and necessary -- just as you really think its right to have denominations, when actually you are crucifying Jesus through them.

Jesus established a biblical model of discipleship for His followers as a way of expanding the Kingdom through direct interaction with other people, as a means of helping them establish a relationship with God through His Holy Spirit.

Romans 10
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]


Although leaven was traditionally associated with how a little sin can spread to ruin an entire dough, Jesus also uses leaven as a picture of how the Kingdom of God will spread;
　
Luke 13:
20 And again he said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened."

Matthew 13
33 He told them another parable. "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."


It's the opposite of sin spreading, it's light spreading out from one small group to save the word rather than corrupt it.

So, scripture doesn't support your idea that discipleship based Kingdom growth is the "leaven of the pharisees".
Quite the opposite - It is the leaven of the Kingdom!




I'll tell you what the leaven of the pharisees actually is:

Luke 12:
"Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 3 Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops.
　
Matthew 16:
Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Galatians 5
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view,


Paul uses the phrase here in relation not just to wrong teaching in general, but to religious legalism which stands in opposition to faith and love.

Some have suggested that the word hypokrisis used in luke 12 actually implies a kind of hypercriticalism (ie. religious legalism), and not hypocrisy as we use the term today.
This is consistent with much of Jesus's preaching about how the pharisees lacked love and genuine devotion to the spirit of the law, keeping only the letter expecting to be justified.
However, it's not necessary to view it that way, because it could also be considered hypocritical (in the modern sense of the word) to keep laws that are suppose to reflect a certain condition of the heart whilst having a heart that is still evil, expecting to be judged as righteous for doing a seemingly righteous action without having any real love motivating that action.

So, while it's possible that some churches can be operating in a kind of leaven like the pharisees had (legalism and hypocrisy), it would be wrong of you to conclude that any form of church organization, especially one focused on the kind of biblical discipleship that Jesus and his apostles modeled, is automatically equated with what the pharisees did.

The problem with the pharisees wasn't that they had disciples, but that they discipled people to depend on keeping their laws and rituals instead of seeking God's heart.

Brickjectivity said:

Thanks, that is another good point.

Lets say you are...a great philanthropist. You give millions of dollars away to the poor, you build mosques, run several orphanages and you pray not 5 but 10 times a day. Most people would say "Wow he is amazing. We must be very careful not to accidentally start worshiping him." You are a nice guy and therefore very influential in your community. Suddenly this prophet named Jesus shows up and calls you a viper, to your face. He says you are hypocritical and block other people from righteousness. He says you "strain out a gnat and swallow a camel," and you "place heavy burdens upon men." You are a pretty good guy. What more could he possibly expect from you? Also, he is saying these terrible things that are bound to make him unpopular with you. He just won't swim with the stream. Why is he picking on you?

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You're assuming a lot of things about the character of the pharisees which we have no reason to believe is true.

Jesus called them white washed tombs because they were dead inside, having not a heart of love for their fellow man, but only a selfish love of the benefits they thought they were getting for themselves by following the letter of the law (which only made them appear good outwardly). Or, just as bad, they loved only the praise and adoration and power they got from their special position in society, and to that end only did what was necessary to be considered superior to the average person, giving no thought to what God actually wanted.

In the parable of the good Samaritan, he describes the priests and levites walking by a man in need.

Rise said:

Jesus established a biblical model of discipleship for His followers as a way of expanding the Kingdom through direct interaction with other people, as a means of helping them establish a relationship with God through His Holy Spirit.

Romans 10
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]


Although leaven was traditionally associated with how a little sin can spread to ruin an entire dough, Jesus also uses leaven as a picture of how the Kingdom of God will spread;
　
Luke 13:
20 And again he said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened."

Matthew 13
33 He told them another parable. "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."


It's the opposite of sin spreading, it's light spreading out from one small group to save the word rather than corrupt it.

So, scripture doesn't support your idea that discipleship based Kingdom growth is the "leaven of the pharisees".
Quite the opposite - It is the leaven of the Kingdom!




I'll tell you what the leaven of the pharisees actually is:

Luke 12:
"Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 3 Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops.
　
Matthew 16:
Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Galatians 5
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view,


Paul uses the phrase here in relation not just to wrong teaching in general, but to religious legalism which stands in opposition to faith and love.

Some have suggested that the word hypokrisis used in luke 12 actually implies a kind of hypercriticalism (ie. religious legalism), and not hypocrisy as we use the term today.
This is consistent with much of Jesus's preaching about how the pharisees lacked love and genuine devotion to the spirit of the law, keeping only the letter expecting to be justified.
However, it's not necessary to view it that way, because it could also be considered hypocritical (in the modern sense of the word) to keep laws that are suppose to reflect a certain condition of the heart whilst having a heart that is still evil, expecting to be judged as righteous for doing a seemingly righteous action without having any real love motivating that action.

So, while it's possible that some churches can be operating in a kind of leaven like the pharisees had (legalism and hypocrisy), it would be wrong of you to conclude that any form of church organization, especially one focused on the kind of biblical discipleship that Jesus and his apostles modeled, is automatically equated with what the pharisees did.

The problem with the pharisees wasn't that they had disciples, but that they discipled people to depend on keeping their laws and rituals instead of seeking God's heart.

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No, Jesus was ONLY talking about the false interpretations of the Scribes and Pharisees, the "legalism" that he was referring to was obviously their corrupted proto-Talmudic concepts that he considered deviations from the original Law. He specifically said that anyone who teaches to break the least of the commandments shall be called the least in the kingdom. That's almost as legalistic as you get. He said not one of the Laws would be void until Heaven and Earth collapse. (And even in 2 Peter it's mentioned that the New Heaven and Earth is still a long ways away).

With that said, Jesus can be considered to be VERY Legalistic. He did not teach a free-for-all anything goes mentality at all. He taught a very strict, very narrow and very rigid lifestyle. He warned his own disciples to avoid doing things which would cause them to go to hell. The concept of "legalism" being a bad thing altogether is not even something the Orthodox church espoused. It ultimately boils down to a "Do as thou wilt as long as it harms no one" mentality. To say that Jesus considered structure and behavioral conditionals to be wrong altogether is the exact opposite of what the entirety of the NT encompasses.

With that said, Luke 12 and Matthew 16 as you quote them do not in any way directly address this concept as you're saying, all they do is mention the concept itself.

Paul as well. For Paul said that those who are unrepentant sinners will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. The "Faith and love" that he preaches obviously encompasses various aspects of what can be determined as "legalism". In many respects, Paul was a great legalist. Only by cherry picking a few select passages and ignoring the rest can one remotely get Paul to NOT be a legalist.

And 1 John is perhaps the most Legalistic book in the whole NT.

Even 1 Peter can be argued to be quite legalistic. Along with Hebrews, which says that anyone who continues to sin after receiving knowledge of the truth has nothing but firey indignation to look forward to.

You'd have to snip out virtually 90% of what both Paul and Jesus taught, as well as all of 1 John and Jude and James, to get this anti-Legalism concept.

The only Leaven of the Pharisees is about wrongfully interpreted Legalism. Not legalism in general.

Otherwise, you're saying that there are no rules whatsoever, which not even Paul says.

Shermana, you are projecting legalism. It is called 'Legalism' when you project a critical and narrow view into places it doesn't exist. Its like you're saying black & white television proves the world wasn't color during the civil war. It is a sad, sad way to look at the Bible and not at all the way that Jesus viewed it.

Rise said:

You're assuming a lot of things about the character of the pharisees which we have no reason to believe is true.

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We have plenty of reasons to trust that the Pharisees had very good character but were distracted by their factional approach to community. They were overlooking part of the meaning of the Shema: "...the LORD is one."

Jesus called them white washed tombs because they were dead inside, having not a heart of love for their fellow man, but only a selfish love of the benefits they thought they were getting for themselves by following the letter of the law (which only made them appear good outwardly). Or, just as bad, they loved only the praise and adoration and power they got from their special position in society, and to that end only did what was necessary to be considered superior to the average person, giving no thought to what God actually wanted.

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Perhaps you do not understand the nature of the Mosaic Law and have not focused upon it. It is trans-formative, and the Pharisees loved it. Its beauty is beyond question to those who are familiar with it, and even a Pharisee (if they were as bad as you say) could not have resisted its influence. The law was given to transform people, and people kept it because it worked. You imply that reading the New Testament gives you some kind of an insight into the daily life of an ancient culture. Instead you should study that culture in order to be able to understand the New Testament. Its very important, so that you can find out what Jesus was criticizing the Pharisees for.

In the parable of the good Samaritan, he describes the priests and levites walking by a man in need.

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Yes, a parable known as the Parable of the Good Samaritan. You could also call it The Parable of the Good Guy From the Bad Part of Town . Its called a parable, because nothing in it has to be real except the point the story-teller is making. Jesus uses the 'Good' Pharisees and the 'Evil' Samaritans, reversing their roles to make the point that your neighbor is everyone who needs your help -- not just those people who agree with you.

Shermana, you are projecting legalism. It is called 'Legalism' when you project a critical and narrow view into places it doesn't exist. Its like you're saying black & white television proves the world wasn't color during the civil war. It is a sad, sad way to look at the Bible and not at all the way that Jesus viewed it.

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Ummm no, Jesus was all about Legalism. And Legalism is not a bad thing. This "Anti-legalism" concept is a purely post-Lutheran concept that ultimately wants to have no rules. And kinda IGNORES EVERYTHING JESUS ACTUALLY TAUGHT. I don't think you even understand what Legalism means, nor do I think you are familiar with what Jesus even taught in the first place. Or Paul for that matter. Or Jude. Or Peter. Or James. Or the author of Hebrews. With that said, would you like to actually address what I actually said?


Seriously, would you like to actually address what I said?

Anyone who says that Jesus did not espouse what can be considered "legalism" I suspect has not read what he actually taught.

So yeah, instead of just dismissing my post as "preaching Legalism" and basically saying "Nuh uh", why don't you try and actually rebut what I specifically said, sounds like a plan?

I actually did post several minutes ago a fairly thorough response to you in the 'What is sin' thread. Its basically the same topic, but I don't mind responding and didn't mean to frustrate you.

Were you planning a separate response to my previous post in this thread, or should I respond to the post you left for Rise?

Brickjectivity said:

Perhaps you do not understand the nature of the Mosaic Law and have not focused upon it. It is trans-formative, and the Pharisees loved it. Its beauty is beyond question to those who are familiar with it, and even a Pharisee (if they were as bad as you say) could not have resisted its influence. The law was given to transform people, and people kept it because it worked.

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Your views do not line up with scripture. Read the book of Romans.
We are told very explicitly that the law does not have the power to transform people, that transformation comes by faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit.
The law is powerless to change anyone, it can only show them the need to change.


Romans 2
29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 3
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 5
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Romans 8
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.

Hebrews 7
19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 10
For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.


　

Here in Romans 7 Paul describes what it is like to know the law but be unable to fulfill it.

Romans 7-8:
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.
　
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

If this transformation comes by faith alone, why is it that so many antinomian Christians are some of the worst offenders and sinners? Are their sins automatically forgiven and have no condemnation? Are they not TRUE Christians? Do they not believe strongly enough? Is it just a "Slow process"? Not even Paul goes that far.

But anyways, this merely highlights how badly Paul clashes with Jesus and everyone else.

Read Romans 8. Transformation comes by yielding to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
It can be as fast or as slow as you are willing to allow it to be.

Transformation by the Holy Spirit in this way comes through faith in Christ.
This is a gift to you, not something you earn, and that what is meant by grace.

Rise said:

Read Romans 8. Transformation comes by yielding to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
It can be as fast or as slow as you are willing to allow it to be.

Transformation by the Holy Spirit in this way comes through faith in Christ.
This is a gift to you, not something you earn, and that what is meant by grace.

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And what exactly does "Yielding to the SPirit" mean exactly? How does one allow it specifically?

Why does he give the gift to some but not others specifically?

If it's not something you earn, why are many called but few chosen?

Why are the Luke warm spat out in Revelation?

Romans 8 tells you what that means, that's why I told you to read it.


Life in the Spirit

8 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2 And because you belong to him, the power[a] of the life-giving Spirit has freed you[b] from the power of sin that leads to death. 3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature.[c] So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
5 Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. 6 So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. 7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. 8 That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.) 10 And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life[d] because you have been made right with God. 11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.
12 Therefore, dear brothers and sisters,[e] you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. 13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature,[f] you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children[g] of God.
15 So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children.[h] Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”[i] 16 For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children. 17 And since we are his children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God’s glory. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering.


Maybe the issue is that you don't understand what that looks like in practice, having not experienced it or been around those who live that way. I can describe that for you if it would help.

So you believe it involves letting the Spirit control your mind. That's fine. I'm aware what Romans 8 says.

But that doesn't explain how you let it happen.

Do you ask nicely? Do you pray for the Spirit to take over your body and soul and redirect you to no longer sin?



And if so, what does it mean to no longer sin?

What happens for Christians who claim to believe in Christ but don't take the time or effort to sincerely pray for the Spirit to take over their body and mind and lead them away from lawlessness?

Maybe the issue is that you don't understand what that looks like in practice, having not experienced it or been around those who live that way. I can describe that for you if it would help.

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Please by all means describe it, I assume you think you have experienced the Spirit taking over your mind and body and leading you away from all sin and temptation, so do your best to tell me.

Shermana said:

Do you pray for the Spirit to take over your body and soul and redirect you to no longer sin?

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The Spirit leads us, convicting us of sin and encouraging us with what is right.
By making a choice to be sensitive to the leading of the spirit and do what is says we are being led by the Spirit.

The key to success in this is recognizing that it is only by the power of the spirit that the bondage to sin and the flesh is broken, so if we're having trouble breaking free from established fleshly patterns of behavior/thinking/feeling then we need to ask for the Holy Spirit to enter into us and deal with that issue, surrendering to Him whatever part of us we may be holding on to.

It is ultimately a choice of surrender. Not a striving to do better by our own willpower. A surrendering of our will to His will.

And if so, what does it mean to no longer sin?

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To see the world the way God does to such an extent that we not only don't perform actions that go against His will, but we don't even entertain thoughts or have feelings that go against His will.

This is exactly what Jesus describes in Matthew 5, where He was stating that the law of God really is far beyond anything they will find in the written letter of the Torah if taken at face value alone - He actually tells them, in conclusion after his sermon on what the law really is, that we should "be perfect, just as God is perfect".

That's an impossible task to achieve by your own willpower and effort. You can only achieve that by choosing to let yourself die and be resurrected spiritually with a new birth, to be born into a new state whereby it's possible to live by the leading of the Spirit, submitting your soul to God's will.

What happens for Christians who claim to believe in Christ but don't take the time or effort to sincerely pray for the Spirit to take over their body and mind and lead them away from lawlessness?

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They stay in their sin until they let the Holy Spirit deal with it and submit to the lordship of Jesus Christ.

There's also a difference between no longer actively sinning and being imputed with righteousness from God's perspective.
By faith in Christ, and a heart set on following Him, we are imputed with righteousness, even if we don't always succeed in following His will the fact that we desire to and are making some positive steps in that direction is what matters. He judges based on discerning what is in our heart, and makes allowances for our own ignorance and weaknesses as we desire to live up to the standard He has set.

Please by all means describe it, I assume you think you have experienced the Spirit taking over your mind and body and leading you away from all sin and temptation, so do your best to tell me.

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The Holy Spirit does not take over someone to the point where they cease to be in control of themselves.

We invite the Holy Spirit in to change us to conform to the image of Christ.
He does this, actually changing us to the point where we lose the desire to sin in ways we use to enjoy.
Reaching this point requires repentence, which is coming into agreement with the Spirit when he convicts you of sin, agreeing that what he wants you to do instead is the right option.
Recognizing the right path and desiring it is the first step, next is asking the Holy Spirit to change you so that you can actually do it. He may then lead you internally to deal with issues of forgiveness, wrong thinking, wrong actions, demonic oppression, or anything else which would hinder you from being healed fully.

You see the world's ways of doing thing will try to teach you to manage your issues or repress them, but the underlying problems remain until you allow the Holy Spirit to atually remove the causes and heal your soul so that you stop acting out in sin as the reactive wounds on your soul are pressed by people and situations.
Only then can you respond to every situation with the love of the Father, not having any agreements made with satan about his rebellious ways of doing things (As Jesus said, the enemy had "nothing in him", nothing by which he could control or afflict or influence Him, because he never came into agreement with him through His words, feelings, or actions)

It's really not so much changing you into a new person as much as it is changing you back into the person God intended you to originally be, minus all the damage the world, satan, and your own will has done to your soul.
It's about allowing the Holy Spirit to prune from your life the things which lead to death (the things which are in agreement with satan and cause you to act in rebellion to God's will) so that the fruit of your reborn spirit can start to blossom into a life that reflects what God originally intended you to be: Someone who reflects His love and character to the world around them.

The Spirit leads us, convicting us of sin and encouraging us with what is right.

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How so? Is it something you can tangibly describe?

By making a choice to be sensitive to the leading of the spirit and do what is says we are being led by the Spirit.

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So if one chooses to be "Sensitive to the leading of the Spirit" is that all there is to it? When does it actually happen? Does it happen to everyone and anyone or only people of a particular scriptural interpretation? How do you know I'm not already sensitive to it? Because my interpretations are different? And only those who agree with you have it?

The key to success in this is recognizing that it is only by the power of the spirit that the bondage to sin and the flesh is broken, so if we're having trouble breaking free from established fleshly patterns of behavior/thinking/feeling then we need to ask for the Holy Spirit to enter into us and deal with that issue, surrendering to Him whatever part of us we may be holding on to.

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So there IS a particular theological implication in that you think its ONLY by the power of the Spirit can one be changed, as if people are robots who can't possibly fix themselves without this Deterministic factor. Do you have scripture to support this view?

It is ultimately a choice of surrender. Not a striving to do better by our own willpower. A surrendering of our will to His will.

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Where does it say this? I agree we are to surrender to God's will, but that's not the same story. And in fact, the idea of not striving to be better by our own willpower kinda contradicts what scripture actually teaches. Jesus is very much talking about personal effort. So you're saying that no man is capable of stopping sinning and doing what God wills without God filling him, what a nice way to remove personal responsibility from the equation.

Trust me, I've heard all this before. And there's no scripture to support it.

But moving on...

To see the world the way God does to such an extent that we not only don't perform actions that go against His will, but we don't even entertain thoughts or have feelings that go against His will.

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And what is His will? How do you determine what His will is? Because obviously it's not the commandments or anything, right?

This is exactly what Jesus describes in Matthew 5, where He was stating that the law of God really is far beyond anything they will find in the written letter of the Torah if taken at face value alone - He actually tells them, in conclusion after his sermon on what the law really is, that we should "be perfect, just as God is perfect".

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That's not what Matthew 5 says at all. Have you even read Matthew 5? It's all about personal action and responsibility as WELL as getting the "Spirit of the Law", but it has nothing to do with not following the Written Letter. It's about how to follow the Written WITH the Spirit of the Law. To be perfect is to follow the Law as God commanded. Otherwise, perhaps you'd like to start a thread on Matthew 5 explaining why what Jesus meant isn't what he really said there. Jesus didn't say "Go ahead and break the commandments as long as you love each other". Well, how does one love God or neighbor without obeying his commandments? How does one have the Spirit of the Law without the written Law? How can one be perfect without at least following the basics?

That's an impossible task to achieve by your own willpower and effort. You can only achieve that by choosing to let yourself die and be resurrected spiritually with a new birth, to be born into a new state whereby it's possible to live by the leading of the Spirit, submitting your soul to God's will.

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Okay, where does it say this? What makes you think that I haven't already submitted my Soul to God's will? Because my Theology and interpretations are different than yours by chance?

They stay in their sin until they let the Holy Spirit deal with it and submit to the lordship of Jesus Christ.

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But many of these self-claimed Christians accept the lordship of Jesus Christ. How does the Spirit "Deal with it" and why are some even able to perform miracles in Jesus's name, yet they don't do what the Father wills and will be rejected?

There's also a difference between no longer actively sinning and being imputed with righteousness from God's perspective.

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So you're saying one can still sin while having the righteousness of Jesus imputed on them? Are you sure that it has nothing to do with "Walking as Jesus walked" for that to be imputed in the first place?

By faith in Christ, and a heart set on following Him, we are imputed with righteousness, even if we don't always succeed in following His will the fact that we desire to and are making some positive steps in that direction is what matters.

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So if you still sin knowingly and willfully (Which in Hebrews 10:26-27 says you have nothing but firey condemnation to look forward to), it's just a "Momentary weakness of the flesh" that is forgiveable regardless? To what extent can you not "always succeed" and what kind of sins do you think one is still allowed to commit? What do you mean by "Some positive steps"? Do you even know what kind of positive steps you should be making? Name some specific examples of these positive steps.

He judges based on discerning what is in our heart, and makes allowances for our own ignorance and weaknesses as we desire to live up to the standard He has set.

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What kind of weaknesses does he make allowances for? Fornication? Does he allow you to fornicate and still inherit the kingdom? Not even Paul says that.

What exactly is this standard He set since it obviously can't be the commandments of the Law he specifically said were for all generations or anything, right?

The Holy Spirit does not take over someone to the point where they cease to be in control of themselves.

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So what does it do then?

We invite the Holy Spirit in to change us to conform to the image of Christ.
He does this, actually changing us to the point where we lose the desire to sin in ways we use to enjoy.

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What does it mean to "conform to the image of Christ", does that mean if you still have weakness and lapses that the Spirit is defective? Or you just weren't trying hard enough? What kind of sins do they lose the desire for exactly? Examples please.

Reaching this point requires repentence, which is coming into agreement with the Spirit when he convicts you of sin, agreeing that what he wants you to do instead is the right option.

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And what are you repenting of? Where is this list of sins, since obviously "Lawlessness" can't be "breaking the Law" or anything.

What if I already agree that He wants me to do what's right? What if I already have invited God to direct me?

Recognizing the right path and desiring it is the first step, next is asking the Holy Spirit to change you so that you can actually do it. He

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Can actually do it? Are you saying it's impossible to recognize the Right path without the Spirit guiding you? What is that right path exactly? Surely it can't be obeying the commandments that are for all generations or anything, right?

may then lead you internally to deal with issues of forgiveness, wrong thinking, wrong actions, demonic oppression, or anything else which would hinder you from being healed fully.

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What are some of these wrong actions and wrong thinkings exactly?

You see the world's ways of doing thing will try to teach you to manage your issues or repress them, but the underlying problems remain until you allow the Holy Spirit to atually remove the causes and heal your soul so that you stop acting out in sin as the reactive wounds on your soul are pressed by people and situations.

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And what is "Sin" exactly? Funny, I already have asked God to help me stop sinning and have trusted Him to help me do this. Perhaps you just don't agree on what exactly constitutes sin so you think I don't have this "transformation" that you think you have.

Only then can you respond to every situation with the love of the Father, not having any agreements made with satan about his rebellious ways of doing things (As Jesus said, the enemy had "nothing in him", nothing by which he could control or afflict or influence Him, because he never came into agreement with him through His words, feelings, or actions)

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I thought you said you were going to describe this actually happening. All I'm getting here is the same standard vagueness and fluff from others who try to find ways to implant their own cherry picked doctrines and confirmation biases. Because rebellion against him can't possibly mean rebelling against the commandments for all generations or anything.

It's really not so much changing you into a new person as much as it is changing you back into the person God intended you to originally be, minus all the damage the world, satan, and your own will has done to your soul.
It's about allowing the Holy Spirit to prune from your life the things which lead to death (the things which are in agreement with satan and cause you to act in rebellion to God's will) so that the fruit of your reborn spirit can start to blossom into a life that reflects what God originally intended you to be: Someone who reflects His love and character to the world around them.

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Ah for a second there I thought you were gonna actually describe what this transformation looks like with details, not just explaining to something I already believe in and have heard 1000x time before that offers no details or specifics. I guess asking for an example of what this changed person actually looks like was hoping for too much.

Shermana said:

So there IS a particular theological implication in that you think its ONLY by the power of the Spirit can one be changed, as if people are robots who can't possibly fix themselves without this Deterministic factor. Do you have scripture to support this view?

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You'll find ample scripture to support that, but you will find no scripture to support the idea that it's ever possible for any man to clean up their own act and be declared righteous on their own.

　
Matthew 5
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Romans 3:
10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;

Matthew 19
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Romans 3
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 5
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Hebrews 7
19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 10
For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.
　
John 3
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
　
Ezekiel 37
3 And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord God, you know." 4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the Lord."

Genesis 2:7
7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
　
Romans 8
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
...
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
　
2 corinthians 3
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
　
Philipians 1
6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
　
Galatians 2
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

Galatians 5
5 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
...
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.
　
Ephesians 4
17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Romans 12
2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
　


To sum it all up:
Supernatural intervention via the Holy Spirit is required to remove the damage and influences that keep us walking in opposition to God.

David understood the concept that transformation came from God, not from his own efforts:


Psalm 51:
Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your steadfast love;
according to your abundant mercy
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin!
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
and blameless in your judgment.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being,
and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones that you have broken rejoice.
9 Hide your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will return to you.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God,
O God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
16 For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
　

Psalm 139
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
24 And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting!
　
1 John 1:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
　
2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
...
. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
　
Romans 5
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
...
because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.