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Was Jesus really God?

cardero

Citizen Mod
GOD has never incarnated to a physical existence on earth. Even the Bible clearly exemplifies that these are indeed two different entities.
 

Faust

Active Member
Actually Scott my previous post was completely historically accurate.
If you wish to find out more about it I would suggest you read "When Jesus Became God" (The Struggle to define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome) By Richard E. Rubenstein.
Mr. Rubenstein is a graduate of Harvard College, Oxford University (Rhodes Scholar),and Harvard Law School.
The book deals with the conflict between two early church leaders, Arius and Anthanasius, and the resolution of the exact nature of Jesus according to the Catholic Church.
That's the great thing about Christianity. They kept detailed records of everything they did.
 

Corban

Member
thomasedison said:
BTW, Do we proof aside from the Bible that Jesus actually said himself that He was the Son of God?

Yes He said it to His prophets on the American continent as recorded in The Book of Mormon
 

Corban

Member
Faust said:
Actually Scott my previous post was completely historically accurate.
If you wish to find out more about it I would suggest you read "When Jesus Became God" (The Struggle to define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome) By Richard E. Rubenstein.
Mr. Rubenstein is a graduate of Harvard College, Oxford University (Rhodes Scholar),and Harvard Law School.
The book deals with the conflict between two early church leaders, Arius and Anthanasius, and the resolution of the exact nature of Jesus according to the Catholic Church.
That's the great thing about Christianity. They kept detailed records of everything they did.

The dispute between Arius and Anthanasius was not regarding the divinity of Christ, they both accepted him as divine, their question was how that divinity related to the divinity of God, whether equal or lower in some way, but the question was never divine or not, the idea of a divine Jesus existed well before their time
 
the most concise definition i could find: Arianism was a 4th-century Christian heresy named for Arius (c.250-c.336), a priest in Alexandria. Arius denied the full deity of the preexistent Son of God who became incarnate in Jesus Christ. He held that the Son, while divine and like God ("of like substance"), was created by God as the agent through whom he created the universe. Arius said of the Son, "there was a time when he was not."

and actually, it was ultimately a dispute about the divinity of Jesus because in a monotheism such as Christianity, you could not have one aspect of God above the other, because it would throw off the system of worship. Why listen to Jesus, even if he was God, if we could be listening to the surperior God and being a Jew (torrah only)?
 

Faust

Active Member
Thank you Hirohito,
I'm beginning to see that.But I appriciate the fact that there are people here that do like to stick to the information as recorded by those who were involved.:)
 

Corban

Member
Hirohito18200 said:
the most concise definition i could find: Arianism was a 4th-century Christian heresy named for Arius (c.250-c.336), a priest in Alexandria. Arius denied the full deity of the preexistent Son of God who became incarnate in Jesus Christ. He held that the Son, while divine and like God ("of like substance"), was created by God as the agent through whom he created the universe. Arius said of the Son, "there was a time when he was not."

and actually, it was ultimately a dispute about the divinity of Jesus because in a monotheism such as Christianity, you could not have one aspect of God above the other, because it would throw off the system of worship. Why listen to Jesus, even if he was God, if we could be listening to the surperior God and being a Jew (torrah only)?

but this debate was put forth here as proof that the divinity of Christ was a new idea, but this debate shows the opposit as you yourself said, both parties believed Christ was divine, that portion was never in dispute by either party so obviously that idea existed before this dispute arose
 

Faust

Active Member
Corban,
The exact nature of the debate dealt with the problem of the trinity.
One side, those who followed the side represented by Anthinasius believed that the Father, Son and The Holy Ghost where three aspects of the one God. Those represented by the arguments of Arius believed that Jesus was a man who was inhabited by the substance of God. They were both trying to maintain the purity of monotheism and still keep the Trinity.
The reason this argument was going on so late in the history of Christianity is up until the time that Constantine became the first Christian Emperor and made it the state religion Christians were being persecuted and marginalized. Even though it continued to grow it was not easy for them to keep everyone on the same track and many different groups had many different ideas about the true nature of their religion,Gnostics,Coptics,ect...
Obviously this is still a problem today but it was harder for early Christians to meet in larger groups and councils and come up with a consensus on the many facets and issues of their religion.
 

Corban

Member
Faust said:
Corban,
The exact nature of the debate dealt with the problem of the trinity.
One side, those who followed the side represented by Anthinasius believed that the Father, Son and The Holy Ghost where three aspects of the one God. Those represented by the arguments of Arius believed that Jesus was a man who was inhabited by the substance of God. They were both trying to maintain the purity of monotheism and still keep the Trinity.
The reason this argument was going on so late in the history of Christianity is up until the time that Constantine became the first Christian Emperor and made it the state religion Christians were being persecuted and marginalized. Even though it continued to grow it was not easy for them to keep everyone on the same track and many different groups had many different ideas about the true nature of their religion,Gnostics,Coptics,ect...
Obviously this is still a problem today but it was harder for early Christians to meet in larger groups and councils and come up with a consensus on the many facets and issues of their religion.

that was beautiful, but doesn't pertian to OUR debate. Which is on the nature of Jesus, and the debate of Arius was introduced as proof that his divinity was a new idea, which is false, and therefore does not pertain to our debate.
 

Hope

Princesinha
carrdero said:
GOD has never incarnated to a physical existence on earth. Even the Bible clearly exemplifies that these are indeed two different entities.
Hmmm....didn't quite get that from reading the Bible. Where exactly in the Bible does it say, or 'exemplify', that Jesus and God are two different entities? :confused:
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
Hope writes: Hmmm....didn't quite get that from reading the Bible. Where exactly in the Bible does it say, or 'exemplify', that Jesus and God are two different entities?

Excerpts from the Holy Bible
John 4:34- I must declare the good news of the kingdom of GOD because for this I was sent forth.



If Jesus and GOD were the same entity the scripture should read : “I must declare the good news of the kingdom of me because for this me was sent forth.



Galatians 4:4- When the full limit of the time arrived, GOD sent forth his Son who came to be out of a woman.



If Jesus and GOD were the same entity the scripture should read “When the full limit of the time arrived GOD sent forth Himself who came to be out of a woman.



John 17:5- Father glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.



If Jesus and GOD were the same entity the scripture should read. “Me, glorify me alongside me with the glory that me had alongside me before the world was.



Matthew 3:16- After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water and look! The heavens were opened up and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. Look! Also there was a voice from the heavens that said “this is my Son, the beloved whom I have approved”



If Jesus and GOD were the same entity the scripture should read. “this is my me, the beloved whom me have approved

.

Other examples:

John 17:6

Luke4:43





Excerpt from my presoanl Bible:

Hello It’s Me: An Interview With GOD pg 48


GOD: I have never incarnated into a physical existence.
 

Hope

Princesinha
Carrdero, with all due respect, I find what you wrote kinda funny. :p

I think that you simply have a total misunderstanding of the whole concept of the Trinity. None of those verses 'exemplifies' to me that Jesus and God are two different entities. And by switching the wording around to what you think it should say, if Jesus and God are one and the same, you are assuming a close-minded approach to the very nature of God.

'The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." ' ~John 4:25,26

'Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." '~John 8:58

' "And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me." '~John 12:45

' "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" '~John 14:9

In these verses Jesus seems to distinctly be saying that He and the Father are one, and proclaiming His deity. :)
 

Raphael

Member
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth and in Jesus Christ his only Son, Our Lord. God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten not made one in being with the Father....
Obviously the Church from its infantcy always believed Jesus to be God. Those who do not are not Christian.
 

Faust

Active Member
Corban,
I'm sorry, I haven't been specific enough.
The Arian conflict was actually an extenuation of the debate over the divinity of Jesus.
They were well aware of the teachings of Paul but still could not rationalize the difference between the Trinity and polytheism. They also could not come to terms with God "dying" on the cross. Divinity was not presented as a new concept then, but as a point of contention and confusion that had to be cleared up in order to come to a consensus regarding church doctrine.

I should have been more specific and said that this was the conflict that finally decided the divinity of Christ as official doctrine of the Catholic (universal) Church, but there are still religious orders today who follow the teachings of Jesus but deny his divinity,Coptics, and there are also still those who identify themselves as Ebionites.
Simply framed the argument would go something like this, Why would God send God To be sacrificed to God in order to appease God so that God would forgive man (His imperfect creation) for sin?(Sin being a Greek term meaning to fall short of the mark.) How could three be one, and how could God "die" on the cross? There were still debates going on concerning the resurrection at this time between different groups that considered themselves to posess the true knowledge of Christianity and they often became violent.
I simply thought it would be valid to present the argument in a different form than Christian vs. Atheist considering the remnants of this debate among religionists remain with us to this day.
The solution according to the Arians was that Jesus "the man was not himself God" but was inhabited (or possessed by) the substance of God. Therefore Jesus the man died on the cross but the substance of God or indeed God Himself did not.
I hope I have made myself a little clearer.
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
Hope writes: I think that you simply have a total misunderstanding of the whole concept of the Trinity.
Actually I used to have a total understanding/belief of the Trinity but recently have shed those beliefs in favor of new enlightenment.

Hope writes: None of those verses 'exemplifies' to me that Jesus and God are two different entities.


Though I have read THE BIBLE and I am familiar with its message, I was never a big on utilizing it in my daily life or using it for the expression of pointing out beliefs to someone else. With THE BIBLE there is too much room for misinterpretation. Here let me explain through example.

Hope writes: The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." ' ~John 4:25,26
Now, if I understand this correctly, the women is talking about the coming Messiah Christ and that he will declare all things to us. Now I can interpret Jesus’ answer as if he is only agreeing to the women that he is, the coming Christ, the coming Messiah and not GOD. The capitalization of the word “He” doesn’t even have an impact when we compare the fact that we have to capitalize the letter “I” when we are talking about ourselves.

Hope writes: 'Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."


This scripture just tells me that Jesus existed “with” GOD before Abraham was born and doesn’t tell me that Jesus “Is” GOD. I believe that ALL of us were spiritual entities before we decided to incarnate to a physical existence.

Hope writes: "And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me."

"...He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?"
These scriptures just explain that Jesus upholds and lives the qualities of GOD (LOVE, patience, consideration, forgiveness) and anyone who observes and takes notice of these examples will have a fine idea of what GOD is about. I believe this was Jesus’ exact PURPOSE for a physical existence.

I believe we all have different natures about us (sometimes more than three). There is “carrdero” the artist, “carrdero” the musician, “carrdero” the full time state employee, but we do not express these different natures to other people in the third person. On the other hand if Jesus did outright proclaim that he was GOD or he was Jehovah his ministry probably would have been cut a lot shorter than it was. As you can recall in THE BIBLE just knowing who GOD truly is was enough to bring authority down around him.

I can honestly admit to you through my REALationship with GOD, GOD has never given me any indication that he incarnated into a physical existence nor adopted the physical personality of Jesus.


 

Hope

Princesinha
Carrdero, one name God uses for Himself frequently in the Old Testament is I AM. When Jesus said 'I AM', He was therefore claiming divinity--why else would the Pharisees then want to stone Him after He said it? It was blasphemy in their eyes for anyone to claim to be God. I think that if He never made such claims, the Pharisees and such wouldn't have wanted to get rid of Him so bad.

Also, as far as your "Show us the Father" argument, if Jesus wasn't really divine, then in my opinion, his claim that anyone who saw Him saw the Father was a very pompous and arrogant thing to say. No other prophets in the Bible, that I know of, made such high claims. If Joe Schmoe off the street said to you, "Hey, look at me--don't you see God? Yup, that's right, when you see me you actually see God!"--would you believe him, or think him crazy? It's one or the other, right?

If you have been 'enlightened', then I won't argue with you. But, personally, I find your arguments not entirely convincing.

Peace to you..... :)
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
Hope writes: Carrdero, one name God uses for Himself frequently in the Old Testament is I AM.
I was also told that this was the appropriate/acceptable name for GOD.

Hope writes: When Jesus said 'I AM', He was therefore claiming divinity--why else would the Pharisees then want to stone Him after He said it? When Jesus said 'I AM', He was therefore claiming divinity--why else would the Pharisees then want to stone Him after He said it? It was blasphemy in their eyes for anyone to claim to be God.


I wasn’t aware that saying “I AM” was a crime worth that kind of punishment back in Jesus’ time. I AM just glad that the law was lifted because I say ’I AM” all the time.

Hope writes: No other prophets in the Bible, that I know of, made such high claims
No other prophets from the Bible, that I K(NOW) of, are alive to back up those high claims.

Hope writes: If Joe Schmoe off the street said to you, "Hey, look at me--don't you see God? Yup, that's right, when you see me you actually see God!"--would you believe him, or think him crazy?


Actually, I would believe him. Everyday I live, in everything I see, in everyone I meet, in everything I do, in everything I AM, I see GOD. It is only in this way, that I can TRULY validate his existence. Do you believe me or do you think I AM crazy?

Hope writes: If you have been 'enlightened', then I won't argue with you.


Why do we have to argue? Beliefs are designed to be shared.

Hope writes: But, personally, I find your arguments not entirely convincing.


Patience, UNDERSTANDING takes time.

 

Adrianay

New Member
Satans Boast (No One Believes In Me Anymore) - Keith Green

Oh, my job keeps getting easier,
as time keeps slipping away,
I can imitate your brightest light and
make your night look just like day,

I put some truth in every lie,
to tickle itching ears,
You know I'm drawing people just like flies,
cause they like what they hear,

I'm gaining power by the hour,
they're falling by the score,
You know, it's getting very simple now
cause no one believe in me anymore.

Oh, heaven's just a state of mind,
my books read on your shelf,
And have you heard that God is dead,
I made that one up myself,

They dabble in magic spells,
the get their fortunes read,
You know they heard the truth,
but turned away and followed me instead,

I used to have to sneak around,
but now they just open their doors,
You know, no ones watching for my tricks
because no one believes in me anymore.

Everyone likes a winner,
with my help, you're guaranteed to win,
And hey man, you're ain't no sinner,
you've got the truth within,

And as your life slips by you believe the
lie that you did it on your own,
But don't worry, I'll be there to help you share
our dark eternal home.

Oh, my job keeps getting easier,
as day slips into day,
The magazines, the newspapers,
print every word I say,

This world is just my spinning top,
it's all like childs-play,
You know, I dream that it will never stop,
but I know it's not that way,

Still my work goes on and on,
always stronger than before,
I'm gonna make it dark before the dawn
since no one believes in me anymore,

Well now I used to have to sneak around,
but now they just open their doors,

You know, no one watches for my tricks
since no one believes in me anymore,
Well I'm gaining power by the hour,
they're falling by the score,

You know, it's getting very easy now
since no one believes in me anymore,
No one believes in me anymore,
no one believe in me anymore.

I Know both the devil and jesus to be very real. Firstly because of the miracles I have seen, second because of the word which is living and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword.

The director of signs said this:

I am not a very religious person my self, if i was the devil i would create religion to kill people with.

jesus hated religion, he loved God. He hated the religious people but loved those who were the social outcasts nd those who thought little of themselves. he choose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. Jesus is coming again. His bride (the church) is being raised up with the power of the holy spirit. Gods power is breaking through and very soon this world is going to be very different. jesus is coming back to take those who have recieved him. God offers you salvation and you have a choice, you can choose jesus, he is life, love and so good or you can choose the devil, death and suffering. Jesus can change your entire life bring physical heling, emotional healing. brake the bonds of satan. Satan is trying tro take this world as his. Look everywhere you go you will see it, tarot cards, fortune balls, weigie boards, demonic forces are very real and si are te heavenly forces. People are being raised from the dead, healed, eyesight restored,n hearing restored. Jesus is coming to take his world as his and destroy the things ofte devil and you have a choice. You can question it with logic but you cant run from the fact that you are loved by God, he is so passionate about yopu. he gave his blood t save your life and you go and follow satan. Turn to Jesus let him set you free. He is, dontlet he lies of the devil bind you but bind the lies of the devil from your life, theres so much your missing out on and so much God wants to do in your life if you would only believe
 
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