Wait...am I on the right thread??? I thought you people were trying to disprove (w/o success) the Book on Mormon because they quoted the Old and New Testament. Am I wrong??? I don't think so. So what if it quoted the scriptures. Is there some kind of rule against prophets quoting other prophets. Oh yeah...there is that rule about BoM prophets quoting other prophets. Give me a break! You people try to disprove this book all you want. It's not possible. :woohoo: Well, its passed my bed time, because I have school tomorrow. I'm sure I'll be even more "enlightened" by your posts tomorrow. good nightlinwood said:
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The Book of Mormon
- Thread starter linwood
- Start date
linwood
Well-Known Member
You and FFH are enough to make me pray for divine intervention.mormonman said:
Perhaps thats your missionary style, overwhelming the subject with such vast inherent ignorance as to make even an infidel beg the gods for mercy.
I`ll do this slowly, one more time and color code it so you can follow it.
I`m sure you have a version of the KJV being a good Mormon and all so please open it to ..
Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Please take note of the red words in the verse.
These words were not in the original text used by those who translated the KJV.
They were added for literary/clarification purposes to make the verse flow in the English language because the direct translation from Hebrew to English is lacking in context and does not read well.
This is not an assertion it is fact and this system is well known to those who use the KJV so I am assuming you are personally aware of it.
In my copy and other copies of the KJV this is done throughout the translation for the same purposes.
In the KJV these "clarification words" are italicized to let the reader know that they are not a part of the original text but there for clarification purposes.
These red words were NOT spoken by the prophet, they were added by the KJV translaters for clarity in context to the English language.
Now please open your Book of Mormon to ..
3 Nephi 24:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
It is obvious this verse from 3 Nephi was directly taken from the KJV Malachi 3:10 because it STILL contains the clarification words (Notice the red) that are used in the KJV.
HOWEVER.......................
These red clarification words WERE NOT SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET according to the original Hebrew.
They do not exist in the original Hebrew text!!
From this one would wonder how the hell these red/clarification words could have been inscribed in Joseph Smiths golden tablets due to the fact that these red clarification words didn`t even exist until the KJV translation many centuries later.
I think thats pretty clear.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Linwood,
I thought these articles might interest you:
http://www.mormonfortress.com/bible5.html
http://www.mormonfortress.com/kjv1.html
Kathryn
I thought these articles might interest you:
http://www.mormonfortress.com/bible5.html
http://www.mormonfortress.com/kjv1.html
Kathryn
FFH
Veteran Member
Linwood, I have read your posts and know exactly where you are coming from. I love this stuff. I love disecting the verses and comparing them, and have spent several years comparing the KJV, with the JST (Joseph Smith translation). Malachi was one of the books that Joseph Smith did not change or mess with. He left it as is. It is true and correct. It was translated correctly into what we know as Malachi in the KJV.
The only original Hebrew text that has remained intact over the years is the first 5 books of the Old Testament, known as The Law, or Torah. If you believe in the words of Jesus Christ then you will know why I say this. I will quote Jesus Christ again, like I have done in other threads.
Matthew 5: 18
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from THE LAW, till all be fulfilled."
This was a promise that The Law would remain intact, untainted by human hands. The transcriptions were done under strict conditions. Nothing was ever left out.
We cannot say for sure that the other books of the Old and New Testament were as carefully transcribed over the years as The Law was. Jesus gave us no promise that there would be no changes made by man.
Man has changed the original texts of the Old and New Testaments. This is why they do not match up with the KJV or the JST.
We can compare them until we are blue in the face and all we will do is say that each other's is not a valid document.
I believe the KJV is mostly translated correctly, according to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith provided for us the corrections to the KJV. I use this "Inspired Version" today when reading the Old and New Testament. I use a book that compares the differences of the KJV and the JST, side by side.
I have noticed that those that use the orginal Hebrew and Greek text are those that do not believe in Jesus Christ. You seem to be fitting into that profile very well. In trying to compare or disprove the Bible and the Book of Mormon, you are only making us realize how correct our translations are.
I do appreciate you and all those that have brought this to my attention. I had not even considered that the original Hebrew and Greek text was tainted. I know now that it is, except for the first 5 books of the Old Testament. The rest of the original text, that we now posses, have too many discrepansies in them, compared to the KJV.
I will also be the first to admit that the KJV also has many flaws in it. I never thought it was a perfectly translated text, and I know that to be the case after studying the JST.
The Book of Mormon was translated correctly and if I remember right there are even verses that correct the KJV verses that are incorrect.
The verse in Malachi is a complete and correct verse, according to Joseph Smith.
Linwood would you like to compare another verse? One at a time, that's all I can handle. Let's look at another one from the Book of Mormon and the Bible. I haven't spent much time doing that, lately, but would like to. You pick a scripture and I will give the JST to go along with the KJ and equivalent Book of Mormon scripture, and you will give us your original Hebrew text.
The only original Hebrew text that has remained intact over the years is the first 5 books of the Old Testament, known as The Law, or Torah. If you believe in the words of Jesus Christ then you will know why I say this. I will quote Jesus Christ again, like I have done in other threads.
Matthew 5: 18
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from THE LAW, till all be fulfilled."
This was a promise that The Law would remain intact, untainted by human hands. The transcriptions were done under strict conditions. Nothing was ever left out.
We cannot say for sure that the other books of the Old and New Testament were as carefully transcribed over the years as The Law was. Jesus gave us no promise that there would be no changes made by man.
Man has changed the original texts of the Old and New Testaments. This is why they do not match up with the KJV or the JST.
We can compare them until we are blue in the face and all we will do is say that each other's is not a valid document.
I believe the KJV is mostly translated correctly, according to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith provided for us the corrections to the KJV. I use this "Inspired Version" today when reading the Old and New Testament. I use a book that compares the differences of the KJV and the JST, side by side.
I have noticed that those that use the orginal Hebrew and Greek text are those that do not believe in Jesus Christ. You seem to be fitting into that profile very well. In trying to compare or disprove the Bible and the Book of Mormon, you are only making us realize how correct our translations are.
I do appreciate you and all those that have brought this to my attention. I had not even considered that the original Hebrew and Greek text was tainted. I know now that it is, except for the first 5 books of the Old Testament. The rest of the original text, that we now posses, have too many discrepansies in them, compared to the KJV.
I will also be the first to admit that the KJV also has many flaws in it. I never thought it was a perfectly translated text, and I know that to be the case after studying the JST.
The Book of Mormon was translated correctly and if I remember right there are even verses that correct the KJV verses that are incorrect.
The verse in Malachi is a complete and correct verse, according to Joseph Smith.
Linwood would you like to compare another verse? One at a time, that's all I can handle. Let's look at another one from the Book of Mormon and the Bible. I haven't spent much time doing that, lately, but would like to. You pick a scripture and I will give the JST to go along with the KJ and equivalent Book of Mormon scripture, and you will give us your original Hebrew text.
Fade
The Great Master Bates
My point is that you guys reference the Hebrew Bible like it doesn't have a single flaw. Any discrepency between the KJV and the HB the HB is always right. The KJV is the most correct translation, besides the Joseph Smith Translation, in use. I'll tell you guys a secret. Are you ready??? The Hebrew Bible was changed and defiled to.Fade said:
So all of this hebrew bible stuff doesn't really matter.
SoyLeche
meh...
Oh, so if the Book of Mormon passages had said "and pour you out a blessing that not enough" you would be okay with it? If God decided to show Joseph the KJV of the refference material, why wouldn't he add the parts that the translators inserted to make the English make sense?linwood said:
He must have plagerized it from memory then, because when he was dictating the Book of Mormon to a scribe he wasn't reading off any papers (according to their accounts). I guess it is possible that he had a Bible in the hat he was looking in, but I'm sure they would have noticed him reaching into the hat to turn the pages.Fade said:
For those of you who are not clear about how Joseph Smith "wrote" the Book of Mormon, he dictated the entire thing. There were a couple of scribes (Emma Smith (his wife), Martin Harris, and Oliver Cowdery). If he were plagarizing out of the Bible I am certain they would have noticed.
SoyLeche
meh...
You forget - it was a vast conspiracy. Many of those involved even agreed to break with the church later on and yet never deny what they saw in order to add validity.jonny said:He must have plagerized it from memory then, because when he was dictating the Book of Mormon to a scribe he wasn't reading off any papers (according to their accounts). I guess it is possible that he had a Bible in the hat he was looking in, but I'm sure they would have noticed him reaching into the hat to turn the pages.
Fade
The Great Master Bates
Not true. The evidence presented is pretty strong. It is you who hasn't provided a rebuttal strong enough to make Linwoods point go away.SoyLeche said:
If we were talking about somebodies thesis in University and the evidence that Linwood has presented came to light, the work would be thrown out.
Fade
The Great Master Bates
So? Lots of people can quote verbatim from the Bible. Oh and what happened to these golden plates?jonny said:He must have plagerized it from memory then, because when he was dictating the Book of Mormon to a scribe he wasn't reading off any papers (according to their accounts). I guess it is possible that he had a Bible in the hat he was looking in, but I'm sure they would have noticed him reaching into the hat to turn the pages.
For those of you who are not clear about how Joseph Smith "wrote" the Book of Mormon, he dictated the entire thing. There were a couple of scribes (Emma Smith (his wife), Martin Harris, and Oliver Cowdery). If he were plagarizing out of the Bible I am certain they would have noticed.