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The Book of Mormon

linwood

Well-Known Member
benjosh said:
Linwood, do your home work. Your time lines are off. When you speak about something you've not studied it shows.
I am doing my homework now Benjosh, correct me where you will and I`ll be thankful for it.
However, again, the exact timelines are irrelevant to the OP.

The BoM quotes the KJV Biblical gospels (John) identically, IDENTICALLY.
The portion of the BoM I`ve seen that does this is 1 Nephi the first and I`m assuming it`s earliest book of the BoM considering thats how it introduces itself.

The content the BoM uses from the KJV Gospel of John is supposedly thousands of years older than the writer of John.
If the BoM is to be believed Nephi had a time machine.

Did you ever think about the context of those New testament scriptures found in the Book of MOrmon? Jesus said he was teaching them the same thing he taught in Jerusalem. So, let's see what does same thing actually mean?
No Benjosh you don`t understand the process the Biblical Gospels went through to become what we find in the KJV.
The point is the KJV doesn`t even have Jesus`s exact words when compared to the oldest texts of the canonical Bible yet somehow Jesus taught the followers of Nephi exactly what the KJV says?

To find the exact same words in the BoM that we find in the KJV gospels is impossible unless they were directly taken from the KJV.
I have different publications of the canonical gospels that don`t even have the same verse let alone wording as the KJV yet the BoM does.

I`d even accept a coincidence here and there but the BoM is rife with identical or near identical text from the KJV.

If the Book of Mormon people had access to Isaiah's writings, it's not a paradox at all.
They certainly didn`t have access to the NT gospels.
How do you explain that paradox?

Why don't you give me an example. It would make it a whole lot easier for me to comment.
1 Nephi 10:8
Yea, even he should go forth and cry in the wilderness: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight; for there standeth one among you whom ye know not; and he is mightier than I, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. And much spake my father concerning this thing.

John 1:23-27
He said,I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

It is possible to those of us who believe in it. :D
Thank you Jonny.
Thats an answer I can accept.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
TheGreaterGame said:
History tells that a Baptist Minister named Solomon Spaulding wrote "Manuscript Found" a book of religious fiction that fell into the hands of one Oliver Cowerdly (the name might be a little off, I'm recalling from memory) which fell into the hands of the Glass Looker Joseph Smith, jnr . . . who, when he could not find any buried treasure in upstate New York, began to think of other ways to become famous.
:biglaugh: Oh, GG, you've outdone yourself now. I'm not even going to dignify that accusation with a response. :biglaugh:
 

TheGreaterGame

Active Member
Katzpur said:
:biglaugh: Oh, GG, you've outdone yourself now. I'm not even going to dignify that accusation with a response. :biglaugh:
You can spin this any way you want . . . you seem to be an expert at that, I commend you for such talent, nonetheless- this is historically acurate.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
linwood said:
They certainly didn`t have access to the NT gospels.
How do you explain that paradox?
In some instances, as I've previously stated, we're talking prophesy. In other cases, they were a record of Jesus' words to the people of the Americas. I'm sorry, but that's the best I can do.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
linwood said:
Disappointing, your strongest argument is a falacy.

Oh well..
My strongest argument, linwood, isn't an argument at all. It's a personal testimony. It's something I can share, but it's not something I can give away. If I could, believe me I would.
 

TheGreaterGame

Active Member
Katzpur said:
My strongest argument, linwood, isn't an argument at all. It's a personal testimony. It's something I can share, but it's not something I can give away. If I could, believe me I would.
Nothing like the old subjective argument . . . "You proved me wrong . . . you proved me wrong . . . so what if 2 x's 2 equals 4 . . . its my own personal testimony that 2 x's 2 equals 5 (arms crossed and head down)" . . . lets get an objective historical perspective . . . thanks
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
TheGreaterGame said:
You can spin this any way you want . . . you seem to be an expert at that, I commend you for such talent, nonetheless- this is historically acurate.
Sorry, your pseudo-scholarship betrays you again, GG.

I'll post this in two separate threads, as it is too long for one. My source is www.jefflindsay.com.

One of the earliest attempts to discredit the Book of Mormon was the argument that it was derived from a lengthy manuscript written by Solomon Spaulding (sometimes spelled Spalding) in 1812. The only known manuscript by Spaulding, now called Manuscript Found, was lost for many years, but was discovered in 1884 and finally published in 1885 (see the article, "Spaulding Manuscript" by Lance D. Chase in Vol. 3 of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism). Now that we know what is in the manuscript, it is obvious that it could not have been the source for the Book of Mormon, as I'll discuss below. The Spaulding theory could survive only as long as the evidence was hidden.


The Spaulding manuscript tells of finding a lost Roman document in a cave near Conneaut, Ohio, which was close to Kirtland, Ohio, the latter serving as Church Headquarters for several years at a time of severe anti-LDS propaganda and persecution. Some people in Conneaut, upon learning of the Book of Mormon, claimed it was much the same as Spaulding's manuscript and that they shared common stories, dealt with Israelites in ancient America, and shared names such as Nephi, Lehi, and Zarahemla. The bitter anti-Mormon Philastrus Hurlbut, who had been excommunicated from the Church in 1833 for adultery, gathered affidavits from family members about the manuscript and its relationship to the Book of Mormon. These affidavits would be published in E.D. Howe's archetypal 1834 anti-Mormon book, Mormonism Unvailed, along with many other affidavits that Hurlbut gathered against Joseph Smith from people who claimed to have known him well. (Interestingly, many of the affidavits condemning Joseph Smith show strong signs of common authorship.) Hurlbut also obtained the Spaulding manuscript and was disappointed to find that it was quite unrelated to the Book of Mormon. While there had never been any indication that Spaulding had written more than one manuscript, Howe and Hurlbut then argued that Spaulding had rewritten the story to deal with Israelites at an earlier time and be in scriptural language. It was alleged Joseph Smith used this rewritten Spaulding Manuscript to create the Book of Mormon and that Joseph had probably received it or information about it from Sidney Rigdon (even though Joseph did not meet Sidney until after publication of the Book of Mormon). This theory became a primary anti-Mormon attack on the Book of Mormon for many years.

In 1884, Manuscript Found was finally discovered in Hawaii among "items shipped from the office of the Ohio Painesville Telegraph, owned by Eber D. Howe, when that office was purchased in 1839 by L. L. Rice, who subsequently moved to Honolulu" (Chase, op. cit.). The manuscript was published by Latter-day Saints and the RLDS Church as well. Supporters of Joseph Smith felt vindicated, for it was clearly not the source of the Book of Mormon (the possibility of a second document will be discussed below). But there were some similarities, as L.D. Chase explains (ibid.):
The Spaulding Manuscript is a fictional story about a group of Romans who, while sailing to England early in the fourth century A.D., were blown off course and landed in eastern North America. One of them kept a record of their experiences among eastern and midwestern American Indian tribes. . . . There are similarities in the explanation for the origins of both Manuscript Found and the Book of Mormon. The introduction to the Spaulding work claims that its author was walking near Conneaut, Ohio (about 150 miles west of the place in New York where Joseph Smith obtained the gold plates), when he discovered an inscribed, flat stone. This he raised with a lever, uncovering a cave in which lay a stone box containing twenty-eight rolls of parchment. The writing was in Latin. The story is primarily a secular one, having virtually no religious content. A character in the novel possessed a seerstone, similar to objects used by Joseph Smith. However, none of the many names found in either volume matches any of those in the other, nor is there the remotest similarity in literary styles.

Joseph, of course, found the gold plates in a stone box, and the Book of Mormon also deals with people who anciently sailed to the Americas and kept a written record. Therein lie the most "impressive" similarities between the only known Spaulding Manuscript and the Book of Mormon. The statements of various witnesses that had been published about Joseph's alleged plagiarism from Spaulding were suddenly exposed as utter fabrications. To illustrate this with an example, we now quote from President Joseph F. Smith, former President of the Church, a man who was in Hawaii at the time Spaulding's manuscript was located and who was personally involved in the events that followed and who conducted extensive analysis of the contents. The following brief quotation comes from an extensive article, largely forgotten today, "The Manuscript Found," published in the Improvement Era, Vol. 3, No. 4, Feb. 1900, now available at Kerry Shirts' site:
Let us review the statement of one of these pretended witnesses [about the Spaulding manuscript]. We will take the testimony of John Spaulding, brother of Solomon. He says:
It was a historical romance of the first settlers of America, endeavoring to show that the American Indians are the descendants of the Jews or the lost tribes.
The fact is, there is not one word in the "Manuscript Story" about the Indians having descended from the Jews. Indeed, after having read it, and copied a large part of it with my own hand, I cannot recall a single reference to the Jews in the whole story. Again:
It gave a detailed account of their journey from Jerusalem by land and sea, till they arrived in America, under the command of Nephi and Lehi.
This is made out of whole cloth. "Spaulding's Story" begins at Rome, not at Jerusalem. The words Nephi, Lehi, Nephites and Lamanites do not occur at all in "Spaulding's Story," nor are there any names remotely resembling them, as the "Manuscript" itself attests. Then Mr. John Spaulding is made to say:
I have recently read the Book of Mormon, and to my surprise, I find nearly the same historical matter, names, etc., as they were in my brother's writings.
How very differently Messrs. Fairchild and Rice viewed this same matter when they compared his "brother's writings" with the Book of Mormon! They saw "no resemblance between the two, in general or detail." Again, Mr. J. Spaulding is made to say:
I well remember that he (Solomon) wrote in the old style, and commenced about every sentence with, "And it came to pass," or, "Now it came to pass,' the same as in the Book of Mormon, etc."
How very unfortunate it is for the author of the foregoing, whether he was John Spaulding or Robert Patterson, or some other person who may have put such cunning words into his mouth, that the phrases, "And it came to pass," or, "Now it came to pass" do not occur anywhere in the "Manuscript Found," much less "commencing about every sentence." And thus every testimony of these alleged credible witnesses might be controverted, but this one is enough to show the falsity of all, owing to their similarity. The example suffices to disprove the great point which Mr. Patterson desired to establish; namely, that the historical portions of the Book of Mormon were certainly derived from the Spaulding manuscript.



 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Continued from Post #28:

Was there a second manuscript? Not wishing to publish the one Spaulding Manuscript that Hurlbut had found, Howe claimed and used affidavits extracted from three people, that it had been rewritten in a way that made it almost the same as the Book of Mormon. None of the original eight primary witnesses from Conneaut who spoke of the relationship between Spaulding's manuscript and the Book of Mormon ever mentioned a second manuscript or spoke of a revision. There is no mention of a second document or a revision to Biblical language until after Hurlbut returned with the disappointing manuscript of Spaulding. It is Howe who claims that there was no relationship between the known manuscript and the Book of Mormon, and that there must be a second manuscript. As B.H. Roberts explained in an excellent and lengthy analysis of Howe's discussion (Defense of the Faith and the Saints, Vol.2, p.122):


That statement bears all the earmarks of an "afterthought," a silly invention. There is not a single scrap of evidence in all that has been written upon the subject, that goes beyond the date of Hurlbut's delivery of "Manuscript Found," to E. D. Howe, to the effect that Spaulding had written more than one paper that purported to deal with a found manuscript, or the ancient inhabitants of America. . . . Why was it that the neighbors of Spaulding about Conneaut did not say before this manuscript was brought to light by Howe, Hurlbut et al., that Spaulding had written several manuscripts on the subject of the ancient inhabitants of America; one that told of a Roman colony came to America and settled in the Ohio valley, the story of their adventures being "written in modern style;" but that this story he abandoned and wrote another, going farther back with his dates and assigning to the people an Israelitish origin and writing in the old scripture style? How valuable such evidence, ante-dating Hurlbut's coming to Conneaut with Spaulding's manuscript, would be! But it does not exist.
Howe's claim was not that there was a completely new, unrelated missing manuscript, but a missing manuscript that was a revision of the one Hurlbut had found. But such a rewrite would be analogous to rewriting a chapter in Moby Dick to come up with the Book of Genesis (both mention whales and water). It is pure fantasy. Manuscript Found, marked with name of Conneaut on its cover page, was almost certainly the one that the witnesses of Conneaut had heard over twenty years before hearing of the Book of Mormon. The memory and truthfulness of the witnesses, zealous to defend religious orthodoxy, are highly questionable (see B.H. Roberts, ibid.). Even more disappointing is the deceitfulness of Howe.

Any argument that tries to credit Solomon Spaulding for anything in the Book of Mormon faces the overwhelming obstacle of establishing a real connection between Joseph Smith and Solomon Spaulding. There is no evidence that they ever met or that Joseph ever even heard of Spaulding's manuscript before publication of the Book of Mormon. Some recent critics have noted that an uncle of Spaulding lived in Sharon, Vermont at the same time Joseph Smith's family did. However, the Smiths moved away several years before the Spaulding manuscript existed, and left Vermont altogether before Joseph reached the age of ten (Isaac Carter, Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1994, p.116). Any conjectured relationship between Joseph and Spaulding during his years in Vermont seems implausible. The Spaulding theory was rejected by anti-Mormon writer Fawn Brodie in 1946, but continues to be repeated in many anti-Mormon publications (along with many other long-refuted allegations from E.D. Howe and other early anti-Mormons, whose writings are repeatedly parroted). There is no substance to any resurrected form of the Spaulding theory and allegations of a second missing document. Certainly nothing known to Solomon Spaulding could account for the presence of chiasmus in the Book of Mormon, or the amazing evidence concerning the Arabian Peninsula in First Nephi, or any of the other evidences of authenticity for the Book of Mormon.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
TheGreaterGame said:
History tells that a Baptist Minister named Solomon Spaulding wrote "Manuscript Found" a book of religious fiction that fell into the hands of one Oliver Cowerdly (the name might be a little off, I'm recalling from memory) which fell into the hands of the Glass Looker Joseph Smith, jnr . . . who, when he could not find any buried treasure in upstate New York, began to think of other ways to become famous.
History also tells us that when the manuscript was actually found and evaluated that it had NOTHING to do with the Book of Mormon. Even the anti-Mormons dropped this argument over 100 years ago.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
This is interesting.

It would appear that the BoM not only takes verse from King James it also takes injected italicized words from the KJV that aren`t in original texts.
You`ll notice that the KJV italicizes parts of it`s translation in order to make the transliteration from Hebrew to English understandable to it`s intended readers.
The KJV uses italics in these instances to note that these words were not in the original but added for clarification.

..in III Nephi 24:10, the phrase `...that there shall not be room enough to receive it...' follows the King James Version, even though seven of these words are not original to the text. The King James Version of Malachi 3:10 reads `...that there shall not be room enough to receive it...'.

Also, translaters of the KJV made mistakes.
These mistakes were copied into the BoM.

As previously noted, the Authorised Version(KJV) had some trouble with Hebrew technical terms. This is very apparent with animal names. The King James Version often refers to `dragons', `unicorns' and `satyrs', all mythological beasts. ...
The fact is that these names were interpolated whenever the actual animal referred to was unclear or unknown. Later research has uncovered the truth behind the Hebrew names, and most modern English Bibles no longer refer to such interesting creatures. II Nephi 23:22 contains a reference to dragons. `And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces...'. This is a quotation from Isaiah 13:22. Most modern translations have `jackals' for `dragons', and `hyenas' for `wild beasts'.

Verse 21 of the same chapter has a reference to satyrs. `But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.' This word `satyrs' is translated `wild goats' in most modern translations.


Last but not least the KJV made blatent translational errors.
These too were copied into the BoM.


II Nephi 12:16, a quotation from Isaiah 2:16 reads as follows `And upon all the ships of the sea, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.'. The problem here is that the word `pictures' should be translated as `ships', which makes more sense. The New International version reads `..and every stately vessel...'

As an aside, this verse adds the phrase `upon all the ships of the sea' to the King James wording. Mormon scholars have often pointed out that this follows the Septuagint, and should thus be considered a more ancient reading of the Biblical text. In fact, this is not entirely true. Neither the Septuagint nor the Masoretic text have both phrases; they include either one or the other. A close examination of the text will reveal the reason for this. Isaiah 2:16 is part of a poetic section which employs a device known as a rhyming couplet. Each stanza of the poem consists of two complimentary phrases. The Book of Mormon, however, has three phrases at this section, and thus could never have been an original part of the text. The obvious conclusion is that Smith had access to a Septuagint translation, or, more likely, to a commentary on Isaiah that included the Septuagint reading.


That kinda blows the whole prophecy/Jesus just teaching the same word on two continents apologetic all to hell.

benjosh said:
Did you ever think about the context of those New testament scriptures found in the Book of MOrmon? Jesus said he was teaching them the same thing he taught in Jerusalem. So, let's see what does same thing actually mean?
I dunno Benjosh.
What does it mean when the BoM `s context follows the context of the KJV`s errors?
Was God teaching the translation mistakes made in the KJV?
Care to help me with my homework?

This is empirical evidence that portions of the BoM were indeed copied from the KJV.
There are only two options as to how this happened.

1> The authors of the BoM (Mormon prophets) had access to a time machine.
2> Joseph Smith directly copied portions of the BoM from the KJV and was indeed the author of the BoM.

Take your pick.

There`s lots more at the site I pasted this stuff from.

KJV BoM Comparison



 

FFH

Veteran Member
linwood said:
Something just struck me tonight.

The BoM has alot and I mean ALOT of text directly taken from the King James Bible word for word or damn close.
The BoM was written by Mormon in 400BC.
The King James Translation was written in the early 1600`s.

How did Mormon know what would be written 2000 years later in the King James version?
or
How did the the committe King James put together to re-translate the Bible know what was written in the BoM when it wasn`t revealed to mankind until the 1800`s?
Two hundred years later.

Kinda weird.
I am glad to see that you have done your homework. You have pointed out a very great fact that the Book of Mormon contains many Old Testament and New Testament writings, EXACTLY the way they were written in the King James Bible. The Book of Mormon is "Another testament or witness of Jesus Christ". Jesus Christ is the author of all inspired scripture. He wrote it all, and He can repeat Himself if he wants too, in order to make His point more clear and valid. Two or more testimonies, or inspired and recorded scripture, are better than one, and are more convincing when trying to teach someone the truth. Two or more witnesses, or testimonies, are better than one.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
jonny said:
It's a translation. Mormon didn't write in English. Joseph Smith read the King James Version of the Bible. It's not that weird.
It IS weird, and the only way that two very different original texts could have EXACTLY the same scriptures in them would be if they were inspired by the same person, Jesus Christ, and then translated correctly by the power of Jesus Christ. Jesus does not mess around, he makes sure these things get written down correctly, and then translated correctly.

2 Timothy 3: 16

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
 

FFH

Veteran Member
linwood said:
This is not coincidence.
Can you begin to understand the process involved in translating through and from three different languages to get the end result of the KJV?
I doubt very much the oldest texts we have of these Biblical qoutes were written in quite this exact way so the reason couldn`t be divinity because the KJV is not how God originally said it.

For the BoM to use almost the exact same wording throughout as was used centuries or even millenia later in the abused KJV is...not possible.
The translation of the KJV was mostly correct and inspired of God. The translation of the Book of Mormon was also inspired of God. Jesus Christ spoke to the "Old World" and the "New World". These are inspired scripture and you can only know this through the Holy Ghost testifying this to you. Inspiration is unseen and can't be proven or disproven unless it contradicts with history in some way. The Book of Mormon and the Bible do not contradict historical events. The record of events in the Book of Mormon and the King James Bible were recorded by inspiration and truly prophesy of things to come. Truly Inspired scripture tell us of things past, present and future. Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega. He knows the end from the beginning. There are no contradictions in truly inspired scripture, historically or otherwise.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
The only original text of scripture that would survive intact, Jesus said, would be "The Law" or the Torah, which is the first 5 books of the Old Testament.

This is why we hear of contradictions to the KJV of the Bible. It is not because the KJV is wrong it is because the original text of the Old Testament, after Deuteronomy have been incorrectly transcribed from the original text and/or mistranslated. THE ONLY ORIGINAL TEXT OF THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT THAT IS 100% ACCURATE IS THE FIRST 5 BOOKS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT. Ask any Hebrew/Greek Christian Bible scholar.

Jesus said, while he was on earth, in Matthew 5: 18

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from THE LAW, till all be fulfilled."

The Law was the only scripture that would survive the tamperings of man and come out without a scratch. No one will ever mess with it. Jesus Christ has prophesied this. The other books of the Old and New Testament, Jesus did not comment on. The other parts of the Old and the New Testaament have obviously been tampered by man, otherwise, those, in this forum who claim to know and posses original Hebrew and Greek text would not contradict the King James version of the Bible, which was mostly translated correctly, according to Joseph Smith. Those in this forum that think that the King James version is an embarrassment to the original text, do not even believe in Jesus Christ and it would be in THEIR best interest to claim to have a more perfectly transcribed Hebrew and Greek text. In reality these texts were not transcribed correctly and have many mistranslations to the original text of the Old and New Testament.

Those that say that the original Hebrew and Greek text do not coincide with the King James version of the Bible also have one thing in common, THEY DO NOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE MESSIAH. This is a common denominator with those that say that the original text does not match up with the King James version, when in fact their so-called original text of Hebrew and Greek are WAY more messed up and WAY more innacurate than the King James.

The Book of Mormon and the King James Bible are companion scriptures inspired by God. All other original Hebrew and Greek texts, except the first 5 books of the Old Testament, are not correctly transcribed scripture and have been tampered with by man over the years.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
The Book of Mormon was translated only once from it's original text. This is something that even the King James version can not boast of, yet the KJV is the most correct translation of the Bible second only to the Joseph Smith's translation or Inspired Version of the Bible. The KIng James is mostly translated correctly, what we have of it, according to the words of Joseph Smith.

I have from a very young age known that Joseph Smith spoke to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I knew this the first time it was presented to me at an extremely young age. There was never any doubt in my mortal mind as to who Joseph Smith was, or his purpose on this planet. It was to bring the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to earth. The Book of Mormon, along with other modern revelations, helped to accomplished this. We have the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ restored here upon the earth once again. If you reject the Book of Mormon, you reject the fact that Jesus Christ visited the American continent after his resurrection in Jerusalem. You reject the fact that Jesus Christ cares about other people in the world. Truly Jesus Christ visited the American continent and many other places after his resurrection in Jerusalem. If you reject the Book of Mormon as valid scripture, then you also reject the very same scriptures that are in the Old and New Testament. The Book of Mormon is a companion to the Bible and does not contradict it. It confirms the truths of the Bible.

Jesus said "Other sheep I have which are not of this fold"

John 10: 16

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

3 Nephi 15: 16-24

16- This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them.

17- That other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

18- And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.

19- But, verily I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were seperated from among them because of their iniquity, therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.

20- And verily I say unto you again that the OTHER tribes hath the Father seperatied from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

21- And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said Other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

22- And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles, for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.

23- And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice---that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.

24- But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me, and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.

3 Nephi 16: 1

"And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have OTHER sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister."

This elludes to the fact that there are OTHER sheep, OTHER than those of the Book of Mormon, which Christ ministered to on the American continent, and also OTHER than those of Jerusalem, where He ministered.

3 Nephi 16: 2-5 (continues to say)

2- For they of whom I speak are they who HAVE NOT AS YET HEARD MY VOICE, neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.

3- But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.

4- And I command you that ye shall write these sayings after I am gone, that if it so be that my people at Jerusalem, they who have seen me and been with me in my ministry, do not ask the Father in my name, that they may receive a knowledge of you by the Holy Ghost, and also of the OTHER tribes whom they know not of, that these sayings which ye shalll write shall be kept and shall be manifested unto the Gentiles, that through the fulness of the Gentiles, the remnant of their seed, who shall be scatttered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in, or may be brought to a knowledge of me, their Redeemer.

5- And THEN WILL I GATHER THEM IN FROM THE FOUR QUARTERS OF THE EARTH, and then will i fulfil the covenant which the Father hath made unto ALL the people of the house of Isreal.

Doctrine and Covenants 10: 59

"I am he who said---Other sheep have I which are not of this fold---unto my disciples, and many there were that understood me not."

Doctrine and Covenants 10: 60

"And I will show unto this people that I had other sheep, and that they were a branch of the house of Jacob."

I am speaking to you as one who has the Smith family blood in me. I have Joseph Smith's Father's blood in me, through Hyrum Smith (Joseph Smith's brother). The Book of Mormon is the most correct and true ancient scripture that we have today. Give the Book of Mormon a chance. Read it before you bash it.
 

benjosh

Member
linwood said:
This is interesting.

It would appear that the BoM not only takes verse from King James it also takes injected italicized words from the KJV that aren`t in original texts.
You`ll notice that the KJV italicizes parts of it`s translation in order to make the transliteration from Hebrew to English understandable to it`s intended readers.
The KJV uses italics in these instances to note that these words were not in the original but added for clarification.

..in III Nephi 24:10, the phrase `...that there shall not be room enough to receive it...' follows the King James Version, even though seven of these words are not original to the text. The King James Version of Malachi 3:10 reads `...that there shall not be room enough to receive it...'.

Also, translaters of the KJV made mistakes.
These mistakes were copied into the BoM.

As previously noted, the Authorised Version(KJV) had some trouble with Hebrew technical terms. This is very apparent with animal names. The King James Version often refers to `dragons', `unicorns' and `satyrs', all mythological beasts. ...
The fact is that these names were interpolated whenever the actual animal referred to was unclear or unknown. Later research has uncovered the truth behind the Hebrew names, and most modern English Bibles no longer refer to such interesting creatures. II Nephi 23:22 contains a reference to dragons. `And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces...'. This is a quotation from Isaiah 13:22. Most modern translations have `jackals' for `dragons', and `hyenas' for `wild beasts'.

Verse 21 of the same chapter has a reference to satyrs. `But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.' This word `satyrs' is translated `wild goats' in most modern translations.


Last but not least the KJV made blatent translational errors.
These too were copied into the BoM.


II Nephi 12:16, a quotation from Isaiah 2:16 reads as follows `And upon all the ships of the sea, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.'. The problem here is that the word `pictures' should be translated as `ships', which makes more sense. The New International version reads `..and every stately vessel...'

As an aside, this verse adds the phrase `upon all the ships of the sea' to the King James wording. Mormon scholars have often pointed out that this follows the Septuagint, and should thus be considered a more ancient reading of the Biblical text. In fact, this is not entirely true. Neither the Septuagint nor the Masoretic text have both phrases; they include either one or the other. A close examination of the text will reveal the reason for this. Isaiah 2:16 is part of a poetic section which employs a device known as a rhyming couplet. Each stanza of the poem consists of two complimentary phrases. The Book of Mormon, however, has three phrases at this section, and thus could never have been an original part of the text. The obvious conclusion is that Smith had access to a Septuagint translation, or, more likely, to a commentary on Isaiah that included the Septuagint reading.


That kinda blows the whole prophecy/Jesus just teaching the same word on two continents apologetic all to hell.

I dunno Benjosh.
What does it mean when the BoM `s context follows the context of the KJV`s errors?
Was God teaching the translation mistakes made in the KJV?
Care to help me with my homework?

This is empirical evidence that portions of the BoM were indeed copied from the KJV.
There are only two options as to how this happened.

1> The authors of the BoM (Mormon prophets) had access to a time machine.
2> Joseph Smith directly copied portions of the BoM from the KJV and was indeed the author of the BoM.

Take your pick.

There`s lots more at the site I pasted this stuff from.

KJV BoM Comparison





By the things you say it appears to me that you are a realist. You do not believe in God or the transcendent. Maybe, I am wrong in this, but that is what I induce from the tone of your observations and conclusions.

Fred Alan Wolf, a well known writer on the subject of the relationship of spirit and matter (drawn from quantaum physics) demonstrates how such one-sided observations as yours will never present a whole picture.

In other words, no matter how much is presented to you from another perspective, your mind will stay entrenched in its current pattern unless you allow yourself the possibility of another vantage point to observe from.

in quantam physics the principle of complementarity says that physical universe can never be known independent of an observer's choice of what to observe. Moreover, these choices fall into two distinct, or complementary, sets of observations called observables. Observation of one observable always precludes the possibility of simultaneous observation of its complement.

You are passing on the observations/views of others as your view. This is valid, I am doing the same thing. We are doing this to say "this is what resonates in my experience".

I approach the Bible and the Book of Mormon from a different point of observation than you. I approach it with a belief in the spiritual basis of matter. You approach it from the point of a materialist.

If I am wrong in this set me straight.

Your purpose does not seem to be to obtain other observation points to enhance your experience; rather you seem to need the argument to re-inforce the conclusions you've already come to.

That is a state of no growth or non-evolving.

But, hey. . . . that's your choice to make.

BenJosh
 

Fade

The Great Master Bates
benjosh said:
Your purpose does not seem to be to obtain other observation points to enhance your experience; rather you seem to need the argument to re-inforce the conclusions you've already come to.

That is a state of no growth or non-evolving.

But, hey. . . . that's your choice to make.

BenJosh
Great! So because he doesn't believe a fairy tale that cannot be shown to have any truth to it, he is willfully ignorant? :bonk:
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
FFH said:
It is weird and the only way that two very different original texts could have EXACTLY the same scriptures in them would be if they were inspired by the same person, Jesus Christ, and then translated correctly by the power of Jesus Christ.
Are you stating that the translational errors and clarifying italics of the KJV were inspired by Jesus through the KVJ translaters centuries after the original texts were written?

I don`t see how this is a rational point of view.

My point is that the BoM not only holds direct textual content from the KJV but that it also contains the identical errors in translation and "uninspired" (text not written in the originals but added only by the KJV translaters) added text the KJV used for clarification, down to the letter.

FFH said:
The Book of Mormon was translated only once from it's original text.
Perhaps but it has undergone several editions and content changes over the years since it`s origin in 1830.
Much has been changed in it`s content since 1830.
Offhand I refer to the mellowing of it`s use of white skin = good, dark skin = bad implications.

This is not the point of my OP however and for clarities sake I`d like to leave it aside for now.

FFH said:
These are inspired scripture and you can only know this through the Holy Ghost testifying this to you. Inspiration is unseen and can't be proven or disproven unless it contradicts with history in some way.
The BoM directly contradicts the history of the American continent and the history and beliefs of native Americans.
It`s been disproven.

FFH said:
Those that say that the original Hebrew and Greek text do not coincide with the King James version of the Bible also have one thing in commn, THEY DO NOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE MESSIAH. This is a common denominator with those that say that the original text does not match up with the King James version, when in fact their so-called original text of Hebrew and Greek are WAY more messed up and WAY more innacurate than the King James.
The beliefs held by those who study the texts make no difference regarding their conclusions as long as they use proper scholarly standards to verify or deny the authenticty of any text.
You have made the claim that the source I`ve provided is comparing the BoM and KJV to an inaccurate original source.
Please supply some reference to support this claim or it will remain nothing more than unfounded gossip.

benjosh said:
By the things you say it appears to me that you are a realist. You do not believe in God or the transcendent. Maybe, I am wrong in this, but that is what I induce from the tone of your observations and conclusions.
This is absolutely true.
I make no secret of my atheism/materialism.
However I want to make the point that I do not reject God, I simply see no evidence of his existence.
This point however has no bearing on the content of my OP.

benjosh said:
Fred Alan Wolf, a well known writer on the subject of the relationship of spirit and matter (drawn from quantaum physics) demonstrates how such one-sided observations as yours will never present a whole picture.
The entire history of scientific inquiry shows that my methods are the only way to reach the "correct" picture.
No human will ever possess the "whole" picture although many have made the mistake of believing they do through their own arrogance.

I don`t know of Fred Allen Wolf but if he infers that an understanding of spirituality can be had through quantum physics he is speaking in ignorance.
When quantum physics speaks of "observations" it does so definitively refering to the "physical world".
It is not capable of supplying guidance of "spiritual observation"
It`s not it`s purpose nor does it claim to make such an attempt.

This however has no bearing on my OP.

benjosh said:
In other words, no matter how much is presented to you from another perspective, your mind will stay entrenched in its current pattern unless you allow yourself the possibility of another vantage point to observe from.
This is untrue and can be attested by those who know my history on these forums.
Many here have changed my mind, opinions, and beliefs but they have done so through evidenced debate not by preaching.

This also has on bearing on my OP

benjosh said:
I approach the Bible and the Book of Mormon from a different point of observation than you. I approach it with a belief in the spiritual basis of matter. You approach it from the point of a materialist.
This is correct.
Revealed faith cannot ever give us a "correct" picture of our surroundings and the universe we live in.In fact it has led to the greatest misunderstanding in human history.
When my "beliefs" do not follow what I can directly evidence in nature/environment then my beliefs need to be altered to correspond with the truth of nature/environment.
This is what I call "common sense".

benjosh said:
Your purpose does not seem to be to obtain other observation points to enhance your experience; rather you seem to need the argument to re-inforce the conclusions you've already come to.

That is a state of no growth or non-evolving.
This statement is a falsity that exists for no other reason than the fact that you have no evidenciary support to attack my argument.
Lacking this support, the best you can do is build a blind unfounded strawman of my purpose and personal belief system in order to attack my person.
This is known as ad hominum and not very persuasive whatsoever.

If you`d actually like to know why I challenge the BoM and other religious texts I`ll start a thread in the appropriate debate forum and tell you.

This however has nothing to do with my OP either.
Do you care to address the actual content of my assertions at all?
 
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