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Afterlife Exists says Top Scientist

outhouse

Atheistically
We have dead people, dead as any dead person living in another existence,



No you have a Dr in a coma, not daed making claims, he cannot back up.

If he was dead he would have stayed that way, but he was never dead.



All I see is wishful thinking for some theist
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Maybe there's no "coherent identification of the physical mechanisms involved" because the mechanisms are super-physical (spiritual) in the NDE.
"Super-physical" is a made up term that has no recognised meaning. If you are proposing a mechanism behind this phenomena, "super-physcial" or otherwise, it still needs to be coherently identified. Without that, you can't make any definitive statements about their causes.

Here's the viable hypothesis. Consciousness is not a product of the physical brain. Consciousness only expresses itself through the physical brain during physical life. After physical death consciousness moves back to where it was previously 'focused'; super-physical realms/dimensions.
That is a viable hypothesis but it doesn't change my fundamental point. You're still talking about some form of energy (known or unknown) being transferred for which there is currently zero evidence while there is some evidence of consciousness being generated by the brain.

Dreams and false memories are not spiritual phenomena and we can find physical mechanisms. The NDE's require super-physical mechanisms.
They require nothing of the kind. There is no reason why all reported NDEs can't be explained by "conventional" mechanisms. There could be as yet unknown mechanisms involved but to state that as truth you would need to identify those mechanisms and demonstrate that they are occurring.

The fact that 'physical mechanisms' are not found with the NDE, actually argues more in favor of NDE's being genuine.
Not yet found and all that points to is that they remain unexplained. If my friend was in London yesterday and New York today but I don't know how he travelled, it would not be reasonable to assume he learned to teleport.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Maybe there's no "coherent identification of the physical mechanisms involved" because the mechanisms are super-physical (spiritual) in the NDE.

Maybe, but there's no reason to believe this with the examples we have so far.

Here's the viable hypothesis. Consciousness is not a product of the physical brain. Consciousness only expresses itself through the physical brain during physical life. After physical death consciousness moves back to where it was previously 'focused'; super-physical realms/dimensions.

Sure, that's a possibility. There's no evidence for it, and it's less likely than consciousness being a product of the brain, but it's a possibility.

Dreams and false memories are not spiritual phenomena and we can find physical mechanisms. The NDE's require super-physical mechanisms.

The fact that 'physical mechanisms' are not found with the NDE, actually argues more in favor of NDE's being genuine.

What do you mean "the fact that physical mechanisms are not found with the NDE"? There are perfectly valid physical-mechanism explanations for every NDE account I've ever seen. And that argues more in favor of NDEs not being genuine.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
"Super-physical" is a made up term that has no recognised meaning.

Not true at all. Things above the physical plane are talked about and described very well in eastern (Indian) Vedic science. Not to mention 150 years of western psychical/paranormal research. I'm going to assume that since the term is not defined in western science is why you're calling it 'a made up term'.
 
If you are proposing a mechanism behind this phenomena, "super-physcial" or otherwise, it still needs to be coherently identified. Without that, you can't make any definitive statements about their causes.

It has been 'coherently identified' in Vedic science.
 
That is a viable hypothesis but it doesn't change my fundamental point. You're still talking about some form of energy (known or unknown) being transferred for which there is currently zero evidence while there is some evidence of consciousness being generated by the brain.

No transfer of energy takes place. Consciousness just moves its focus from the physical vehicle to its super-physical vehicle (these super-physical bodies are discussed in detail in Vedic science). If you are just studying events on the physical plane you won't detect any transfer of energy.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Not true at all. Things above the physical plane are talked about and described very well in eastern (Indian) Vedic science. Not to mention 150 years of western psychical/paranormal research. I'm going to assume that since the term is not defined in western science is why you're calling it 'a made up term'.
Vedic science isn't. It lacks the foundation of science - experiment.

No transfer of energy takes place. Consciousness just moves its focus from the physical vehicle to its super-physical vehicle (these super-physical bodies are discussed in detail in Vedic science). If you are just studying events on the physical plane you won't detect any transfer of energy.
There is no experimental evidence to suggest that conciousness is non-physical, or for that matter, anything more than data.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
There is no experimental evidence to suggest that conciousness is non-physical, or for that matter, anything more than data.

Physical experiments to find the super-physical is almost by definition impossible. I believe that Vedic Science, 150 years of psychical research and millions of untold personal experiences leads me to believe there's something there.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Physical experiments to find the super-physical is almost by definition impossible. I believe that Vedic Science, 150 years of psychical research and millions of untold personal experiences leads me to believe there's something there.

What does Vedic science have to say on the issue?

What is this 150 years of "psychical research"?

If the personal experiences are untold, how do you know about them? And why do you think personal experiences that aren't repeatable or verifiable have so much weight in terms of evidence?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Magic Man......I know we've debated very similarly in the past and I don't see either of us changing. But for the sake of any interested on-lookers out there and the sport of debate here are my replies:

What does Vedic science have to say on the issue?

Vedic science is vast beyond what I or any one person knows. On this issue, in a nutshell, it says we are pure consciousness limited by five bodies (sheaths). The outer sheath is what we call the physical body. After death we first experience but through one less sheath.
 
What is this 150 years of "psychical research"?

Paranormal research of which the NDE discussed in this thread is one topic amoung many. There are many topics that imply physical only conciousness is an insufficient explanation..

If the personal experiences are untold, how do you know about them?

So many people I have heard tell individual stories that suggest a paranormal explanation. It's obvious I could have only heard the tiniest, tiniest fraction of them considering how many billions have lived.
 
And why do you think personal experiences that aren't repeatable or verifiable have so much weight in terms of evidence?

Each personal experience may be a thread. Enough threads can make a strong twine.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Vedic science is vast beyond what I or any one person knows. On this issue, in a nutshell, it says we are pure consciousness limited by five bodies (sheaths). The outer sheath is what we call the physical body. After death we first experience but through one less sheath.

OK, so it's not science; it's philosophy/religion. It's fine for you to believe in that, but it's no better than a Christian saying "God did it".
 
Paranormal research of which the NDE discussed in this thread is one topic amoung many.

Ah, so your basic NDE stories. Essentially you're saying you believe all the NDE stories from the past 150 years are evidence.

There are many topics that imply physical only conciousness is an insufficient explanation..

Do any of them have actual evidence?

So many people I have heard tell individual stories that suggest a paranormal explanation. It's obvious I could have only heard the tiniest, tiniest fraction of them considering how many billions have lived.

Ah, so you're assuming there are many others.
 
Each personal experience may be a thread. Enough threads can make a strong twine.

Only if the individual threads don't break down. I have yet to see a personal experience that holds up to inquiry. All of the ones people point to have problems, and leave you with the conclusion that there's no reason to believe the experience was anything more than a dream or other mundane explanation. It doesn't matter how many there are, when individually they don't hold up.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I'm going to assume that since the term is not defined in western science is why you're calling it 'a made up term'.
Not directly. Science isn't western, it's a very general set of concepts, principals and methods the early aspects of which were developed in the East while we were still hitting rocks with bigger rocks.

I said it’s a made-up term because it refers to an imagined concept to explain something unknown. Just because we're not able to explain everything in terms of the physical world is no reason to assume there must be something "beyond" the physical world. I could just mean we don't understand all of it.

It's like you showing me a fruit I don't recognise and me assuming it must be a magical gem delivered by the aliens from Alpha Centauri rather than just a perfectly ordinary fruit form a perfectly ordinary plant that happens to be outside the scope of my current knowledge.

It has been 'coherently identified' in Vedic science.
Great. You should be able to point us to a precise description of the mechanisms for life after death and NDEs and the methods used to identify them. I suggest you're no more able to do that than anyone else is. The fact remains that this field is firmly within everyone's "don't know" area.

No transfer of energy takes place. Consciousness just moves its focus from the physical vehicle to its super-physical vehicle (these super-physical bodies are discussed in detail in Vedic science). If you are just studying events on the physical plane you won't detect any transfer of energy.
So you know exactly how NDEs are explained yet it is impossible to demonstrate? You seem to have as much misplaced confidence and unsupported faith in your assumptions as those how claim any form of "spiritual" explanation for NDEs is impossible.
 

tempter

Active Member
Now that we are getting evidence that there is an afterlife, through NDEs and through interaction with the spirit world, the only questions now is which religion is correct. I know, but do you? :D

"Dr Eben Alexander, a Harvard-educated neurosurgeon... ...says he had heard stories from patients who spoke of outer body experiences but had disregarded them as "wishful thinking" but has reconsidered his opinion"... Afterlife exists says top brain surgeon - Telegraph

An afterlife, doesn't always denote a religious POV. Religions developed after the thought of an afterlife, not the other way around.
In other words, an after life doesn't = God.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
You should be able to point us to a precise description of the mechanisms for life after death and NDEs and the methods used to identify them.
Vedic, Theosophical and other literature provide a quite detailed description of the mechanisms involved. If you're waiting for physical proof of the super-physical it may be by definition impossible and you will never be satisified.

So you know exactly how NDEs are explained yet it is impossible to demonstrate?

Everyone will demonstrate this to themselves when they die. Physical proof of the super-physical is is almost by definition impossible.

You seem to have as much misplaced confidence and unsupported faith in your assumptions as those how claim any form of "spiritual" explanation for NDEs is impossible.

I don't engage myself in 'unsupported faith'. I present a theory and evidence that supports my theory. I don't claim physical proof of my beliefs. I look at theories and evidence and conclude many NDE's are very likely genuine. You are free to take a neutral stance. You are also free to not consider the ideas of Indian spirituality where you might be impressed like me in the quality of the minds and intellect most westerners show no interest in.

Honestly Joe, there doesn't seem anywhere to go with our discussion from here than to politely disagree.
 

Dan4reason

Facts not Faith
Now that we are getting evidence that there is an afterlife, through NDEs and through interaction with the spirit world, the only questions now is which religion is correct. I know, but do you? :D

"Dr Eben Alexander, a Harvard-educated neurosurgeon... ...says he had heard stories from patients who spoke of outer body experiences but had disregarded them as "wishful thinking" but has reconsidered his opinion"... Afterlife exists says top brain surgeon - Telegraph

If these experiences are legit, then why do the Jesus' in people's NDEs look different?
Jesus - near-death experiences
 

The Wizard

Active Member
Now that we are getting evidence that there is an afterlife, through NDEs and through interaction with the spirit world, the only questions now is which religion is correct. I know, but do you? :D

"Dr Eben Alexander, a Harvard-educated neurosurgeon... ...says he had heard stories from patients who spoke of outer body experiences but had disregarded them as "wishful thinking" but has reconsidered his opinion"... Afterlife exists says top brain surgeon - Telegraph

One of my favorite articles from author, Nathan L. Earney.

"And the angel spoke to me... Imagine dying, going through a tunnel of light and then waking up to a winged humanoid looking Angel. "

"Yes, this is the Heaven, but not in the way you were taught to believe. We are in this Angel form becouse we are simply another advanced race who transported your consciousness at your time of death because we decided to give you an afterlife. You do have a choice to go back into the silence if you desire."

"We've been doing it for eons. We are of the oldest in conscious existence. You deserved the gift and reward for being good. You passed the test. We operate and record everything at a distance from the other side of the Universe... Our knowledge and technology is what you would call works of God. We just like giving all the good conscious beings who we observe from afar a second Life... it's our part in the grand scheme of Eternal Justice...

Second Contemplation...

"Yes, this is the Heaven. But, we are actually your own species a million years into the future who went transhuman and developed the backwards engineering technology to resurrect you by extraction and deduction, to the exact point when you died, of course before your consciousness evaporated into the silence. Our AI machinese do most the work. The tunnel simply sent you through a zillion light years distance to our cosmic place or a million years from the past into your own future in one instant... so smile immortals... and hope that you're not in trouble...and above all, behave yourself."

Right now, in our limited infant stage of discovery/development we would only make a replica version of ourselves, which would just be a different person. Same thing with teleportation.

This is becouse of the "I-ness" factor. Our so called non-stop consciousness or I-ness cannot be transferred yet. There is no pause for it either. If it pauses we cease to exist (so they say) and whatever pops out the other side is just a copy. We are not even near it, but everything is going to change about everything. At the rate of scientific and tech. advancement going on at present, we will nearly have super god-like powers in only about three hundred years. Now, imagine a million years into the future, hence. Really! Can it even be contemplated? From nano tech to energy based tools, AI and beyond. There is just no possible way to describe it- The Civilization of Light. OUR VERY DESTINATION!

Now, when you die and see that tunnel of light. That "tunnel" could most likely be a million years into your own future and our god-like species resurrected and recreated you, reverse engineered to the moment of your death. Sure, it seemed like a moment to you but it certainly wasn't. If they have wings or something that may be becouse the civilization went transhuman and hybrid. This here is just another example of the ways of thought absolutely nobody bothers concieving... Integrate those pieces together and apply it to us as a growing species through eons. Overlook the mere holes you can find in this cheap example, for it is irrelevant. You will see that afterlife and immortality is THE only real eternal, Universal Justice for all deserving, decent and good conscious beings... either by religion or no religion at all or even by other civilizations, it makes no difference. Either way leads to the same ending result! Yes?

The chances that an afterlife and immortality exists, by whatever means and direction, is so great it dwarfs all other ridiculous, illogical theories that imply it doesn't, won't and has never....

And, to top it all off. All advanced civilizations get help from all others with the task of giving the afterlife to all in a future Civilization of Light... And that advancement, knowledge and power is endless, undefeatable. The Creator, making sure everyone is taken care of no matter how they died or were destroyed. There is sure to be some sort of life review and reward or penalty for the way you choose to live and treat others in this Life (karma). So, you know what? All is just and fair... ultamitely.

And, lets not forget time travel. If such power is indeed possible then you should be able to conclude it will be used for providing an afterlife and immortality to every conscious being who has ever existed. That would be the first PRODUCT demanded from time travel. Think about it! With their concsiousness transferring tech. and dimensional technology, upon dead, you will find yourself zapped into a billion year old Civilization of Light a billions years into the future...

And, last but not least there is already a science of deduction. That is, a way of determining the condition or form of everything by means of observing the relationship and association of trace elements. Everything can be reverse engineered to original state and form- becouse we live in a cause and effect Universe.

Perhaps there is like a great mirror that may be created which lets one see anything in time. Realize that if any of this "far fetched" stuff is even near a possibility then the afterlife will be a fact. But, even further, the point, if we are discussing such things now...imagine later what will be discussed...

So, do realize... if you believe in time travel or super advanced civilizations. It is a good wager that you're in contrafiction of yourself if you don't also believe an afterlife will be a possibility.....

1. A GOD means an afterlife... Developed Time Travel equals an afterlife! Our civilization a million years from now most likely means an afterlife! Billion year old super advanced alien civilizations. What do you think they'd eventually provide to the cosmos? Immortality or an afterlife to all deserving!

So, take your pick... And, above all, be a good person...


:medwheel::
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
One of my favorite articles from author, Nathan L. Earney.

"And the angel spoke to me... Imagine dying, going through a tunnel of light and then waking up to a winged humanoid looking Angel. "

"Yes, this is the Heaven, but not in the way you were taught to believe. We are in this Angel form becouse we are simply another advanced race who transported your consciousness at your time of death because we decided to give you an afterlife. You do have a choice to go back into the silence if you desire."

"We've been doing it for eons. We are of the oldest in conscious existence. You deserved the gift and reward for being good. You passed the test. We operate and record everything at a distance from the other side of the Universe... Our knowledge and technology is what you would call works of God. We just like giving all the good conscious beings who we observe from afar a second Life... it's our part in the grand scheme of Eternal Justice...

Second Contemplation...

"Yes, this is the Heaven. But, we are actually your own species a million years into the future who went transhuman and developed the backwards engineering technology to resurrect you by extraction and deduction, to the exact point when you died, of course before your consciousness evaporated into the silence. Our AI machinese do most the work. The tunnel simply sent you through a zillion light years distance to our cosmic place or a million years from the past into your own future in one instant... so smile immortals... and hope that you're not in trouble...and above all, behave yourself."

Right now, in our limited infant stage of discovery/development we would only make a replica version of ourselves, which would just be a different person. Same thing with teleportation.

This is becouse of the "I-ness" factor. Our so called non-stop consciousness or I-ness cannot be transferred yet. There is no pause for it either. If it pauses we cease to exist (so they say) and whatever pops out the other side is just a copy. We are not even near it, but everything is going to change about everything. At the rate of scientific and tech. advancement going on at present, we will nearly have super god-like powers in only about three hundred years. Now, imagine a million years into the future, hence. Really! Can it even be contemplated? From nano tech to energy based tools, AI and beyond. There is just no possible way to describe it- The Civilization of Light. OUR VERY DESTINATION!

Now, when you die and see that tunnel of light. That "tunnel" could most likely be a million years into your own future and our god-like species resurrected and recreated you, reverse engineered to the moment of your death. Sure, it seemed like a moment to you but it certainly wasn't. If they have wings or something that may be becouse the civilization went transhuman and hybrid. This here is just another example of the ways of thought absolutely nobody bothers concieving... Integrate those pieces together and apply it to us as a growing species through eons. Overlook the mere holes you can find in this cheap example, for it is irrelevant. You will see that afterlife and immortality is THE only real eternal, Universal Justice for all deserving, decent and good conscious beings... either by religion or no religion at all or even by other civilizations, it makes no difference. Either way leads to the same ending result! Yes?

The chances that an afterlife and immortality exists, by whatever means and direction, is so great it dwarfs all other ridiculous, illogical theories that imply it doesn't, won't and has never....

And, to top it all off. All advanced civilizations get help from all others with the task of giving the afterlife to all in a future Civilization of Light... And that advancement, knowledge and power is endless, undefeatable. The Creator, making sure everyone is taken care of no matter how they died or were destroyed. There is sure to be some sort of life review and reward or penalty for the way you choose to live and treat others in this Life (karma). So, you know what? All is just and fair... ultamitely.

And, lets not forget time travel. If such power is indeed possible then you should be able to conclude it will be used for providing an afterlife and immortality to every conscious being who has ever existed. That would be the first PRODUCT demanded from time travel. Think about it! With their concsiousness transferring tech. and dimensional technology, upon dead, you will find yourself zapped into a billion year old Civilization of Light a billions years into the future...

And, last but not least there is already a science of deduction. That is, a way of determining the condition or form of everything by means of observing the relationship and association of trace elements. Everything can be reverse engineered to original state and form- becouse we live in a cause and effect Universe.

Perhaps there is like a great mirror that may be created which lets one see anything in time. Realize that if any of this "far fetched" stuff is even near a possibility then the afterlife will be a fact. But, even further, the point, if we are discussing such things now...imagine later what will be discussed...

So, do realize... if you believe in time travel or super advanced civilizations. It is a good wager that you're in contrafiction of yourself if you don't also believe an afterlife will be a possibility.....

1. A GOD means an afterlife... Developed Time Travel equals an afterlife! Our civilization a million years from now most likely means an afterlife! Billion year old super advanced alien civilizations. What do you think they'd eventually provide to the cosmos? Immortality or an afterlife to all deserving!

So, take your pick... And, above all, be a good person...


:medwheel::
God-like intelligences wouldn't believe in any justice, because they wouldn't believe in free will, especially so if they evolved from us by whatever means.
 

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
Why should only one religion among many religions, be the absolute holder of all that is True?

Because each religion claims to be true, but they all can't. Matter of fact if any one religion is true, then that forces all others to be false, unless of course they are mere offshoots of the same religion, such as Baptist or Methodist, but even then some of their beliefs must be false if they are different. For example Christianity claims that there is no reincarnation, people go to heaven or hell the very first time they die. Well if the religion of reincarnation, Hinduism is true then Christianity must be false.
 
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