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Israel Palestine Conflict?
- Thread starter F0uad
- Start date
Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
Upon further reading, I stand corrected. Originally, Israel was widely expected to sign it, but there was apparently a debate about it and they didn't in the end. Thanks!
Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
If I bother to reply to every single point, this will devolve into an ever-lengthening barrage, so I will reply to you in general. My position is clear. Israel has a right to defend itself within its 1967 borders. Anything it occupies outside that is illegal. It doesn't matter if China or Burma or any other country is also violating the law. If you want to talk about those countries, start a new thread about that and I'll be more than happy to discuss them.
If Israel, as you seem to suggest, is guided solely by the atrocities it can get away with while under US protection, then by the picture you paint me, Israel is a deeply unjust country. Perhaps not each and every Israeli, many of whom I'm certain are fine people, but certainly the governments of Israel which have continually perpetuated the theft of Palestinian land.
So far, the arguments counteracting the clear UN position that Israel's occupation beyond its 1967 borders is illegal have revolved around trying to paint Israel as a special snowflake that deserve a magical exemption from international law. Even if Jim "the Hammer" Shapiro himself made that case successfully, that still does not excuse the many civilian casualties Israel has inflicted on the Palestinians, nor does it justify a land grab ethically. Nor does it justify blocking the Palestinian bid for statehood, nor does it justify the attempt to stop Iran from developing nuclear arms.
Nor am I saying that Hamas and Iran are completely innocent, either. Firing at civilian targets is reprehensible (and also a violation of international law). Threatening Israel is inexcusable. Using children as suicide bombers is beyond disgusting. Both sides are at fault, but I don't want to make it seem like the blame is shared equally. Clearly one side is more powerful. One side has nuclear weapons, a large, advanced military, a powerful missile defence system, billions of dollars in military aid, protection from a superpower. The other side throws rocks and inaccurate rockets, most of which are shot down.
One side has the ethical responsibility to be "the bigger person", not to "send a message" by killing scores of civilians. In the end, I'm certain that the average Palestinian no longer wants to live with the fear of an airstrike killing them randomly, nor does the average Israeli want to live with the fear of a rocket attack. Everyone on Earth deserves peace and security. People get tied up in this stupid ideology of land that God supposedly gave them and are willing to kill and die over it.
No amount of blowhard arguing will change the fact that both sides do not have clean hands. The sooner both sides recognize that, the sooner peace will be achieved.
Shermana
Heretic
First off, I'm assuming you retract on the use of those "quotes" by your reply, yes?
Vile Atheist:
Part of the problem when debating such a topic is such inflammatory rhetoric like "THEFT of Palestinian land". Well by your logic, ALL countries are based on Theft. Including wherever you live. If the Arabs would have accepted the peace treaties from 1948 and onwards and not attacked Israel at every point possible, even in between the major wars, there'd be no strategic need to occupy contested territory. Taking land in war is not theft, by any stretch. Otherwise, I hope you're prepared to call every country from Turkey to the USA the theft of land, and apply the same rhetoric and language. To accuse Israel of "Land theft/land grabbing" is an example of the kind of unjust characterizations and displays of total ignorance of the actual situation. War gains (especially in defensive war) does not equal land theft. If someone attacks someone and loses and loses territory, that's how it goes. It ain't theft. I'm assuming you have virtually no understanding of the actual history, so it's going to be difficult even discussing this unless you have read beyond just the Pallywood sound bites of what went down.
That's what I suggest? No, that's what you straw man. Israel was "commiting atrocities" as you may call it long before the USA became so closely tied, even to the time when the US was more aligned with Egypt. And what you call "Atrocities" is up to question, as you seem to have this pre-determined judgment of what constitutes such regardless of the context of the facts. Numerous countries bulldoze improperly zoned territory and crack down on armed separatists. Another part of the issue is singling out Israel's dealings as if they are the special snowflake who has to be condemned for such.
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Vile Atheist:
First off, it's NOT Palestinian land. Part of the problem here, is that you make such assumptions. It was land part of the "Mandate of Palestine". Most Palestinians are the descendents of emigrants from Egypt and Syria who came around the same time as the Zionist pioneers, and there was a Jewish presence in Jerusalem for far longer (they had a majority in Jerusalem for most of its history), the word "Palestinian" is very recent, wasn't in circulation until the 1960s. The Turkish government invited the Jews to fill up what was mostly empty unused land, the grand majority of the Arabs in the region until the Zionists came were in the Transjordan, and they mostly migrated to the Jewish areas seeking the jobs and capital they provided. Use of the word "Palestinian land" to define the "Mandate/Turkish Region of Palestine" in no way whatsoever inferred that the Arabs of that region were "Palestinian". It's not "Their" land. At best, Jordan can be called "Palestinian" land because its currently occupied by a majority of Palestinians and constitutes 80% of the Mandate/regional boundaries. But there's simply no way one can objectively call the land in question "Palestinian" as if they have any greater claim to it than the Jews. And that itself is a debate topic. The use of the word "Palestine" does not necessarily confer "Palestinian" status in the same use of the word.
Part of the problem when debating such a topic is such inflammatory rhetoric like "THEFT of Palestinian land". Well by your logic, ALL countries are based on Theft. Including wherever you live. If the Arabs would have accepted the peace treaties from 1948 and onwards and not attacked Israel at every point possible, even in between the major wars, there'd be no strategic need to occupy contested territory. Taking land in war is not theft, by any stretch. Otherwise, I hope you're prepared to call every country from Turkey to the USA the theft of land, and apply the same rhetoric and language. To accuse Israel of "Land theft/land grabbing" is an example of the kind of unjust characterizations and displays of total ignorance of the actual situation. War gains (especially in defensive war) does not equal land theft. If someone attacks someone and loses and loses territory, that's how it goes. It ain't theft. I'm assuming you have virtually no understanding of the actual history, so it's going to be difficult even discussing this unless you have read beyond just the Pallywood sound bites of what went down.
That's what I suggest? No, that's what you straw man. Israel was "commiting atrocities" as you may call it long before the USA became so closely tied, even to the time when the US was more aligned with Egypt. And what you call "Atrocities" is up to question, as you seem to have this pre-determined judgment of what constitutes such regardless of the context of the facts. Numerous countries bulldoze improperly zoned territory and crack down on armed separatists. Another part of the issue is singling out Israel's dealings as if they are the special snowflake who has to be condemned for such.
No, it's those like yourself who makes Israel the special snowflake that HAS TO FOLLOW International Law. The other way around. Re-examine your opening paragraph. If there was a single country that fully obeyed international law in such circumstances, they would be the special snowflake. Try again.
Is any land grab justified? All countries today are based on "Land grabs". When Jordan invaded Israel, their land became up for grabs. That's how ALL war works. Why do you insist on special exceptions for Israel to be the special snowflake to not be able to take territory in war, especially in defensive war? Are you planning on handing your house over to a Native American? If not, rethink your position. Civilian casualties are kind of hard to avoid when the enemy is using human shield tactics and blending in among civilians. The difference between Israel and the Palestinians is that Israel doesn't deliberately target them.
So should every country worldwide allow every Separatist faction a bid for statehood?
That's another subject entirely.
Yes, and the difference is that Israel doesn't deliberately do so.
So if it's inexcusable, what's the solution?
So you place your balance based on who is more powerful, interesting. Are you aware that the war is more than just against Palestinians but has historically been against Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, etc? If your judgment is purely about who is more powerful at the moment, then that's hardly a sound basis of reasoning.
So what do you think the side with rocks and "Bottle rockets" is doing provoking the one with the large, technologically advanced army? I'll give you a hint: It's to fuel the PR war to get people like yourself to feel sorry for them, they hope to get as many civilian casualties on their own side as they do to inflict on Israel so they can get sob stories like this. How do you explain that the grand majority of Hamas casualties are indeed from armed combatants? When the grand majority of Israeli casualties are civilians and the majority of Palestinian are militants, that should give you all you need to know about "being the bigger person".
And most of the casualties are due to militants, Israel's attacks are VERY accurate, but accidents happen when human shield tactics are involved. I see no reason why Israel should have to be the "bigger person", if anything you're saying the Palestinians do NOT have some kind of "ethical responsibility" and are allowed to be more "unethical". Why don't you explain what "being the bigger person" entails, not firing back at all?
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I'm sure most of them don't, but they could also try rising up against the people who are forcing Israel's hand and not allowing them to blend in with them to make the eggshells even harder to walk on for Israel, you think?
So what's the solution, tell them both to stop believing that God gave them the land? If anything, the Quran even acknowledges the land is proscribed for the Jews (5:20). Is your solution to tell the Jews to abandon their claims?
You really think peace will be achieved just by admitting that they don't have clean hands? Do you honestly expect the PA and Hamas to come closer to peace by accepting they don't have entirely clean hands? Naivity at best.
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YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Oh, I expect that both sides are perfectly aware that they have both done naughty things to each other, however the sad reality is that peace will never be achieved as long as the Israeli state exists. The best that can be expected is that the bloodshed is paused from time to time.
If only it was that simple,its not though,Hamas and the other factions do not include Israel in their future:
Meshaal does not accept the idea of a permanent peace deal with Israel but has said Hamas could accept a Palestinian state in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem as a temporary solution in return for a long-term truce.
Gaza war offers boost to Hamas leader Meshaal | Reuters
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
i think that is due to religious concepts which he believes on which mentioned in the quran and hadith that jews will control the land of palestine and the jews will be in power and that there'll be a peaceful agreement between muslims and jews for awhile and the wars will be behind the walls and fortified towns (air strikes & iron dome) till the time that Jesus pbuh will brought to earth that the final great battle will start.
So he is talking according to his islamic belief as well as some jews are talking about palestine as the promised land.
They, that is, the Jews, will not fight against you together, [all] in a [single] body, except in fortified towns or from behind some wall (jidār: a variant reading has [plural] judur, walls), some [kind of protective] fence. Their might, their belligerence, is great among themselves. You [would] suppose them to be all together, united as a [single] body, but their hearts are disunited, scattered, contrary to supposition. That is because they are a people who have no sense; (59-14)
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Every so often Israel finds the need to destroy the ability of the "Palestinians" to make serious war. Between whiles they restrict them in what ever way they can, to minimise the need for a further skirmish.
Neither side has the ability to destroy the other or even to "win" in any meaningful sense.
This cycle of violence will continue for the foreseeable future, as no real change in the situation is likely.
Neither side has the ability to destroy the other or even to "win" in any meaningful sense.
This cycle of violence will continue for the foreseeable future, as no real change in the situation is likely.
i think that is due to religious concepts which he believes on which mentioned in the quran and hadith that jews will control the land of palestine and the jews will be in power and that there'll be a peaceful agreement between muslims and jews for awhile and the wars will be behind the walls and fortified towns (air strikes & iron dome) till the time that Jesus pbuh will brought to earth that the final great battle will start.
I agree about the religious concepts which are a noose around the neck of a long term peace,i don't think they intend to wait for a supposed saviour.
So he is talking according to his islamic belief as well as some jews are talking about palestine as the promised land.
Well i think knowing what their Islamic belief is helps,i don't think they are representative of Muslims in general just as the Jews who talk of the promised land do not represent all Israelis.
I do think though that they are representative of their parent the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.
They, that is, the Jews, will not fight against you together, [all] in a [single] body, except in fortified towns or from behind some wall (jidār: a variant reading has [plural] judur, walls), some [kind of protective] fence. Their might, their belligerence, is great among themselves. You [would] suppose them to be all together, united as a [single] body, but their hearts are disunited, scattered, contrary to supposition. That is because they are a people who have no sense; (59-14)
I'm not a believer,i prefer to deal with facts,something you can bend and shape to mean what you want is very unhelpful to this situation,worse,its the main enabler for one side,the part highlighted in red,really c'mon.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Israel's only impingment on Islamic nations or group is only to try and stop the rokets, grenade, and guns being smuggled in with stuff like food and medication. If they didn't it would soon get out of control.
From my days as a soldier and my years as a military amateur historian I know Israel has enough nukes to destroy everyone over there, that is if their conventional forces could't do it alone. The only reason they have not just taken back Gaza, and the Sinia, the west bank in full, and the Golen hights is international pressure. They are also even now trying to passify the Islamic terrorists but being that giving lands or freeing prisoners usually is taken as a weekness by the cowardly soldiers of Islam and so it usually results more violence and rockets every time. One day Israel will say they have had enough and no longer care what the UN thinks about anything and start taking care of buisness once and for all. That is actually merciful in the long run as then no one is shoting rockets anymore.
I belive this is all Biblical stuff. The violence will march on as it has for a period of time until Israel has finally had enough and decicdes to end it all and brings the heat and starts tearing up Islamic armies and territory for real this time. At this point is where the sides get drawn. According to the Bible it may be russia on Islams side plus others against hopefully the US and maybe the chinese acording to the prophecys. It will be a bloody night mare and it will appear that Irael and her allies, US and Britian and maybe China will be loosing . Just as the Islamic terrorists think they have had the final battle and are going to get everything they want, Jesus shows up and anihilates all the forces against Israel. That will not be a pleasant time and it looks like we are getting to that point not too far off from now. Part of me hopes armegedon is coming soon. As a Chistian I willl not be here during these wars. That situation over there just proves this wold is broken and needs a swift kick to the backside that Chist wil make happend when he comes back. Woe for those fighting against his children whe comes back, I think that will be a rude awackening for Islam. But for right now we can only pray and wait.
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Zoe Doidge
Basically a Goddess
Ah, if only it was a simple matter of nuclear genocide to resolve this unfortunate situation :sad4:.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Which is what I said in a more inclusive way.
I too served in the Army...Neither side is cowardly, both are fighting to exist as their own nation. Israel can not use its nukes close to its own borders for the same reason we can not. fall out and radiation, does not understand borders.
The entire world depends on the availability of Middle eastern oil. There can be no "Final Solution" in the complete elimination of the Palestinian people. It would amount to Israel taking a suicide pill.
I think seeing this in Biblical terms has been the problem all along. compromise and assimilation is always the preferred option.
The last time England lost a war at home was when William defeated Harold at Hastings. However it was not a war between the French and English But two viking families, both leaders were related and of Viking stock. Certainly the Saxon ruling classes suffered as they were displaced under Norman rule. But intermarriage and cooperation soon mitigated that situation. The common people saw little difference, except for a new set of rules. England very soon became the stronger for it, which eventually led to the formation of the united Kingdom. and so the Empire.
Both the Jews and the Palestinians are of Semite stock. What differs is their religion and their comparative financial and military power. However if this became an out and out religious war, those positions would be reversed.
The rest of the world could do little to stop it, and would have to watch and wait. They would of course take advantage and compete for the pickings when it was over.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Ignoring for a second that insisting on injecting apocalyptic visions and the ridiculous notion of using a nuclear arsenal has never helped to build a constructive debate on the subject, it's worth acknowledging the fact that Israel has not resorted to the use of it's nuclear arsenal in far more alarming situations when confronted with it's neighbours, but relied solely on conventional forces.
In addition there are various inaccuracies in your post robin. Israel returned the Sinai peninsula to Egypt in a peace treaty, the formerly Syrian Golan Heights are still in Israeli hands, and there are no plans to take Gaza as the disengagement plan of 2005 shows.
Lets look at the broader picture in the Middle East, during the 8 days in which the Israeli air force made over 1,500 airstrikes, 140-160 Palestinians died. During the same 8 days, the Syrian regime killed over a 800 of its own people and injured thousands of others. In Monday this week alone 150 Syrians died. (Source: Gaza ceasefire: Syria's shrinking influence now exposed | Analysis | World news | guardian.co.uk)
All of the above is an indication of the methods used by the Israeli forces and the Israeli government and a long term aim to reach a standing settlement with Arab states and the Palestinians. No one thinks there is any sense in projecting about some kind of apocalyptic atomic orgy.
In addition there are various inaccuracies in your post robin. Israel returned the Sinai peninsula to Egypt in a peace treaty, the formerly Syrian Golan Heights are still in Israeli hands, and there are no plans to take Gaza as the disengagement plan of 2005 shows.
Lets look at the broader picture in the Middle East, during the 8 days in which the Israeli air force made over 1,500 airstrikes, 140-160 Palestinians died. During the same 8 days, the Syrian regime killed over a 800 of its own people and injured thousands of others. In Monday this week alone 150 Syrians died. (Source: Gaza ceasefire: Syria's shrinking influence now exposed | Analysis | World news | guardian.co.uk)
All of the above is an indication of the methods used by the Israeli forces and the Israeli government and a long term aim to reach a standing settlement with Arab states and the Palestinians. No one thinks there is any sense in projecting about some kind of apocalyptic atomic orgy.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
First of all just a little correction. Benjamin Netanyahu is not the president, he is the prime minister. The president of Israel has only symbolic powers.
Now to answer your question. What is your suggestion, that instead of reaching a truce and perhaps reaching the prospect of a long term negotiation in the future Israel erase the Hamas?
This would be a strategic mistake for Israel, because Hamas is under pressure to hold the Gaza strip in tact under its regime, in the face of various factions.
There are other organizations operating in the Gaza strip, some of which are more radical than Hamas, which may use terrorist means, but still should have an interest to gain legitimacy. This would mean working with the Egyptians who have to take into consideration the American POV and this could lead to an eventual calm in the area.
Hamas as the ruling party in Gaza and an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood will experience pressure to moderate itself. Just like Israel and the Fatah/PLO eventually began to negotiate, one day this could happen with Hamas. Until that day, various pressure points can moderate the methods Hamas may use in order to reach a long term reasonable goals.
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
it is already out of control and better to Israel to be brave enough to stop Iran which is very close to start production of nuclear weapons instead of asking USA to do the war by sending American soldiers to fight Iran which of course Obama administration had refused to start such war.
[youtube]NsZ8xN6TeWg[/youtube]
Netanyahu Draws a Cartoon 'Bomb' at United Nations! - YouTube
[youtube]HjAxzTOMmdQ[/youtube]
Gordon Duff: Mossad organized US embassy attack - YouTube
Waw,that is top secret,how did you know that Israel can destroy everyone over there by nuke bomb.
Thats sound childish,iranians are even mocking and making fun out of Israel's power.
[youtube]ZwcDJjkAubQ[/youtube]
power of iron dome israel netanyahu very funny
[youtube]sNrQ35WwXmo[/youtube]
NO WAR FOR ISRAEL IN IRAN KEEP AMERICANS SAFE - YouTube
Armegedon as described by you that Jesus pbuh will show up to help his children the jews whom actually don't ever accepted him and regarded him as son of ***** ,that make no sense at all,then Jesus pbuh isn't a racist,he'll be in support to the believers and not to one's nationality or tribe.
BTW,Israel is very strong and can Nukes every one in the middle east,so why it needs Jesus pbuh to annihilate all forces against jews whom actually didn't ever love Jesus pbuh.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Actually nuclear genocide would resolve it very quickly. However that is not what I claimed, or desire to happen. It is very likely to happen however if political correctness, secular moral relativity, and lack of will allows Iran to build nuclear weapons. They, unlike Israel are not honorable enough to allow them to have nukes. Since I never suggested a nuclear attack I will not bother addressing it further.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Very well.
The Israel government has never officially threatened Gaza, Egypt, Jordan, or Syria with anihilation. Not one of the latter acknowledge Israel's right to even exist unless something has changed there recently. The last thing Hamas is doing is fighting a defensive war to protect Gaza.
There is no coward scale. It is a relative value. Israel has never targeted civilians in general, never used schools, mosques, and hospitals to store weapons in. Hamas has. Israel is almost always reacting to first strikes and has almost never initiated an offensive. Israel primarily fights stand up conventional battles. Hamas shoots rockets at women and children from safe houses and snipes from bushes across the border.
Actually there are tactical nukes that do not put out that much fall out but even for strategic weapons there is a very limited area where they could not be used.
I didn't get this. What does oil have to do with Israel trying to stave off the wolves. When it is life and death I don't think Israel would care too much about OPECs profit margin. Keep in mind I was responding to a statement that said Israel could not destroy their neighbors. I have never suggested they use nukes unless it is that or anihilation.
How can an observation of reality cause anything? Observing light comes from the sun has no effect on light it's self. As a Christian it would be a sin to not notice reality behaving exactly as God predicted. For me to pretend not to believe that what is going on is Biblical, for the sake of political correctness would be a lie.
There are beneficial wars and wars that have anihilated one side or the other and even many that enslaved an entire race. England is not in revelations.
I will not make any guesses on what will happen in the future beyond what is revealed. The scope and length of the conflict over there defies any rational explenation. It is as they say of biblical proportion. I think your point was that desirabilty and consequences determine what is true. I do not subscribe. I think denying reality even if it seems the best path normally winds up costing much more in the long run.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
it is already out of control and better to Israel to be brave enough to stop Iran which is very close to start production of nuclear weapons instead of asking USA to do the war by sending American soldiers to fight Iran which of course Obama administration had refused to start such war. [/quot] I agree but we will not invade Iran. We will simply drop some deep penetration weapons and blow up the facilities that would enable them to produce a nuclear weapon.
[youtube]NsZ8xN6TeWg[/youtube]
Netanyahu Draws a Cartoon 'Bomb' at United Nations! - YouTube
[youtube]HjAxzTOMmdQ[/youtube]
Gordon Duff: Mossad organized US embassy attack - YouTube
Their nuclear arsenal is more than large enough to destroy the infrastructure of their enemies nations. It isn't a secret, it is well known Israel has plenty of nukes. I hope the crazies do not put Israel in a position of having to choose between nukes and their anihilation.Waw,that is top secret,how did you know that Israel can destroy everyone over there by nuke bomb.
They can make fun of anything they lke the facts are that Israel has won every single war they have been in. Including ones where they were outnumbered by 100 - 1. IMO they are proportionally stronger today than ever.
[youtube]ZwcDJjkAubQ[/youtube]
power of iron dome israel netanyahu very funny
[youtube]sNrQ35WwXmo[/youtube]
NO WAR FOR ISRAEL IN IRAN KEEP AMERICANS SAFE - YouTube
Even if it makes no sense to you that is what the Bible says. It actually does make sense being that the Jews are still God's chosen people. The Bible says that at that time Israel will have her eyes opened and turn to Christ. There are already many messiahnic Jews right now. I do not think the end will come until the rebuilding of the temple acording to the Bible. You can invent a God if you want and claim to know what he will do but it would not be the God of the Bible. That God, said in the Bible he would defend Israel in the end.
You made many incorrect statements in those few sentences.
1. You are examining Israel as it exists today and assumeing it will look the same when Jesus comes back. You can't know that.
2. You are assuming that the only ones that wil be attacking are middle eastern. The Bible implies a great many nations will be attacking them. I think it mentions 100 milion troops.
3. The Bible says what it says. God does not require his teaching be agreed upon by you or anyone. He may defend his people if he chooses even if they all reject him.
4. The same God the father that perdicted and then established Israel as a state in 1948 and promised no one would ever kick them out again is the same father that will send Christ to protect them. God may do as he pleases whether you agree or not.
5. The Bible even implies that nukes will be used in the final battle right before Christ shows up.
6. The Bible says the Jews will turn to Christ in the end. Se 144,000.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Then wouldnt it be easier to stop labeling them as such and stop targeting there members. I think the chances of Hamas becoming more moderate in that way is much better. Also when "Peace-Agreements" are in discussions to adhere to Global Human Rights and the UN resolustion about the illegal settelments?
R0bin your scary by justifing the war with religious scriptures and ideas i think your a real warmonger.
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