Israel Palestine Conflict?

Rakhel · Nov 21, 2012

loverOfTruth said:
I have no problem accepting that IfAmericansKnew might have their own agenda and hence might be somewhat biased in their reporting from time to time. But I wouldn't be surprised at all that entities such as New York Times and Guardian would be criticizing them given IfAmericansKnew is working on criticizing those medias for not being fair. Also, you have to take into account that media monitoring orgs such as Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting actually praise their reporting. So you can't simply brush it off as anti-semitic.

Furthermore, the reason I would watch that video to get some information from there is because it shows people mostly non-arabs and including Jews and Christians who should not have any reason/interest to take the side of the palestinians over the Israelis except to bring the facts out - even if they end up exaggerating a bit. Mostly, what they show is the plight of the palestinians which is not shown in the mainstream media. So if you can point to a specific thing(i.e. palestinians homes being bulldozed, more and more lands being taken away by settlers etc.) that they show which is not true, I will be more than wiling to investigate that further.

I will be honest, my level of understanding was nil up to about a few years ago as to the Israel/Palestinian conflict.(Christian upbringing, so to speak). My first inclination as to what was going on in the region was "Death in Gaza."
But since reading articles and watching videos and podcasts, I have learned, not as much as I would were I there, but enough to know that not everything is as it seems.
Sure, land is being built on for Israelis to live, but it is also being taken away just as fast. Sure, Palestinian homes are being bulldozed, but so are Israeli homes. I have seen pictures and videos of Gaza prospering, at the same time the media is saying it's not. And I have heard of the deaths of Palestinians about as quick as I have heard of the deaths of Israelis.

Vile Atheist · Nov 21, 2012

Jayhawker Soule said:
If you believe this to be a rational position there can be no expectation of rational discourse.

How is it irrational?

On one side, you have Palestinian children throwing rockets and a few militants firing highly inaccurate and ineffective rockets, the vast majority of which are shot down.

On the other, you have one of the most powerful militaries in the world, armed with nuclear weapons, advanced fighter jets and naval vessels, hundreds of thousands of soldiers at its disposal, billions of dollars in military aid from the United States, not to mention the Iron Dome system which renders the other side's weapons almost completely useless.

This is proportional to you?

Caladan · Nov 21, 2012

Vile Atheist said:
How is it irrational?

On one side, you have Palestinian children throwing rockets and a few militants firing highly inaccurate and ineffective rockets, the vast majority of which are shot down.

On the other, you have one of the most powerful militaries in the world, armed with nuclear weapons, advanced fighter jets and naval vessels, hundreds of thousands of soldiers at its disposal, billions of dollars in military aid from the United States, not to mention the Iron Dome system which renders the other side's weapons almost completely useless.

This is proportional to you?

I think its nothing short of a miracle that in over 1500 Israeli air strikes against Hamas and Islamic Jihad targets only 140 Palestinians died, the majority of them militants.
Considering your analysis of the overwhelming advantages Israel has over the Palestinians in technology and training, it makes one wonder why do Palestinian groups insist on dragging the Palestinians into a confrontation with Israel.
Israel has done an exceptional job in protecting its citizens by developing the Iron Dome system and has also gone out of its way to warn Palestinians non combatants to stay clear out of Hamas and Islamic Jihad targets.
If we consider that in two short years tens of thousands of people have been killed in neighbouring Syria, it seems that Israel can manage wars far better and more professionally than its neighbours.
With all the talk about a disproportionate use of force, it's amazing that in two short years Syria has managed to kill thousands more of its people than both the Israelis and Palestinians killed in decades of confrontations.

England my lionheart · Nov 21, 2012

1 minute ago Jon Donnison, BBC News, Gaza tweets: #gaza streets come to life again. car horns, cheering, traffic and gunfire.

Wonder how long for.

loverOfTruth · Nov 21, 2012

Rakhel said:
I will be honest, my level of understanding was nil up to about a few years ago as to the Israel/Palestinian conflict.(Christian upbringing, so to speak). My first inclination as to what was going on in the region was "Death in Gaza."
But since reading articles and watching videos and podcasts, I have learned, not as much as I would were I there, but enough to know that not everything is as it seems.
Sure, land is being built on for Israelis to live, but it is also being taken away just as fast. Sure, Palestinian homes are being bulldozed, but so are Israeli homes. I have seen pictures and videos of Gaza prospering, at the same time the media is saying it's not. And I have heard of the deaths of Palestinians about as quick as I have heard of the deaths of Israelis.

One huge difference in what is highlighted in the red above. Palestinians are being evicted from their rightly owned homeland and some Israelis are being evicted JUST to comply with the International law for not stealing someone else's land. If you do not see the difference between the two - I don't know what else to tell you. Not to mention that it doesn't help if you remove only few settlement from some place only to build more settlements in other areas.

Also, I do have Palestinian friends from who I hear all sorts of restrictions they have to go through. For example, my friend barely gets 2 weeks vacation from his US company to visit his family and then ends up spending one week (and sometimes it could be more) in the border controlled by the Israelis while being not sure whether he can still make it inside to see his family. Sometimes they give up. Not to mention that sick people including pregnant women actually go through much hardship waiting at the border and some cases resulting in death without treatment. This is violation of one of the most basic human rights.

Vile Atheist · Nov 21, 2012

esmith said:
When an entity, in this case Hamas attacks another country, Israel in this case, they should expect retaliation.

I certainly did not say that Israel should not retaliate. My position in this thread is quite clear. Any attack on Israel within its 1967 borders deserves retaliation. All I said was that the retaliation should be proportional. A few rockets being fired and doing damage does not warrant the destruction of an entire city and the killings of dozens, mostly civilians. Again, no case can be made that the Israeli response to Hamas' attack is proportional.

When the attackers, in this case Hamas, locates their means of attack within the civilian population there is going to be collateral damage to non-military infrastructure and non-combatants. Whether the destruction and casualties in Gaza is disproportional to those in Israel is not germane to the issue.

It is. Hypothetically, if snipers in the Canadian military shot an American civilian dead from across the border, does that warrant the United States nuking the whole of Canada? Of course, this example is a little more extreme, but only to illustrate my point. Does Israel have a right to defend itself? No doubt. Does it have a right to kill dozens of people, mostly civilians, and destroy a whole city in response to an attack that was, by comparison, far more minor? Not really.

Israel is prosecuting targets that are the source of attacks against the civilian population of Israel. What would you have Israel do? Ask Hamas to please stop shooting at our civilian population? Unfortunately the people of Gaza have brought the destruction on themselves by allowing a organization that is recognized as a terrorist entity to occupy and govern their country.

You seem keen to reply to what I have to say, but not keen on actually reading it. I've been clear this whole time. Israel has a right to defend itself within its 1967 borders. In fact, that was the very first point I made on this thread.

Some of the following was copied from: Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The "Six-Day War" was a result of terrorist attacks, Syrian military activity along Israel's boarders false intelligence from Russia led Egypt to believe that Israel was going to attack Syria. These actions and other precipitated the Six-Day War, which led to Israel expanding their borders to provide additional security for Israel. The UN passed resolution 242 in Nov 1967. Resolution 242 recognized the right of "every state in the area to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt in 1978, after the Camp David Accords, and disengaged from the Gaza Strip in the summer of 2005, seaports and airports. Therefor your statement is invalid.

Please read what you quote: "Resolution 242 recognized the right of "every state in the area to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.""

RECOGNIZED boundaries. Israel's boundaries HAVE been recognized already by the UN. The 1967 borders. Yet, it continues to occupy territory outside these recognized borders. Res. 242 is right. Palestinians have the right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force. So once Israel stops blockading and occupying land that does not belong to it, Israel will be in the right.

Only the current administration has ever mentioned that Israel revert back to their pre-1967 borders. I have no intention of rehashing the Iraq conflict other that say that a ruthless dictator was removed from power. Your assumption that there is a coming war with Iran may or may not be valid. The majority of the world community including many Arab nations have made it quite clear that Iran can not obtain nuclear weapons. Your conclusion that Israel does not have the right to defend itself is totally invalid.

I never concluded that! You're lying! That was the very first point I made on this thread. I've consistently stated that Israel has a right to defend itself within its 1967 borders. If you're not going to bother to read what my actual position is before you reply to it, especially when I have not changed it, I have no interest in talking to you. Either you lack reading comprehension or you're dishonest. Either way, any discussion with you will be fruitless.

I do not know where you keep coming up with the idea that Israel is circumventing international law.

Just numerous UN resolutions for, literally, decades saying that the Israeli occupation and blockade of Palestine is illegal under international law. That's all.

No, Israel does not want control over Palestine, they only want to be sure that there are no offensive weapons that can reach into Israel. If the people of Gaza want to live in peace then they or someone is going to have to remove those that are responsible for attacking Israel.

For a country that doesn't want control over Palestine, they have a funny way of showing it...by controlling Palestine. If Israel doesn't want to be attacked, the first thing it needs to do is withdraw from lands beyond the 1967 borders and stop the blockade. There is no legal justification for it.

Your point is totally incorrect. Hamas is a puppet of Iran who has made it quite clear that the Nation of Israel should be removed from the face of the earth. Hamas is one of their arms attempting to achieve this goal. Hamas, knows that it can not prevail against Israel militarily and is attempting to bring discredit against Israel by using the people of Gaza as their propaganda tool.

Think with your head for a minute here...or try. If Iran ever did anything to Israel, including nuking it, you know what would happen? Iran, too, would be wiped off the face of the Earth by the United States, the UK, and France. It's political posturing.

Let's quote Netanyahu:

"But so far, you know who's been violating the nuclear nonproliferation pact day and night? Those who signed it. Iran, Iraq, Libya and Iran violates it while calling for Israel's destruction and racing to develop atomic weapons to that end."

Except Libya and Iraq had no nuclear weapons nor were they pursuing them. And Israel also violated nuclear non-proliferation, so it's just as guilty as Iran for this same offence.

"I don't want to govern the Palestinians. I don't want them as subjects of Israel or as citizens of Israel. I want them to have their own independent state but a demilitarized state."

Israel then blocks Palestinian bids for statehood in the UN, when they're taking the exact same route Israel took to gain statehood.

Vile Atheist · Nov 21, 2012

What about other Israelis?

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Israel is not completely innocent. Stop lying.

1robin · Nov 21, 2012

Vile Atheist said:
How is it irrational?
On one side, you have Palestinian children throwing rockets and a few militants firing highly inaccurate and ineffective rockets, the vast majority of which are shot down.

This is not the case. The iron dome costs $60,000 a shot. They only intercept rockets shot at hospitals or orphanages and the like. Besides this is a brand new system. The rockets have been terrorizing Israel by the thousands for years. Hamas is not kids throwing rockets; it is snipers shooting civilians across the fence. It is the kidnapping and torture of soldiers. Gaza has been tunneled like an ant farm and they store rockets, AKs and, mortars in hospitals and schools.

On the other, you have one of the most powerful militaries in the world, armed with nuclear weapons,

Which they are honorable enough to have never used unlike Iran would be.

advanced fighter jets and naval vessels, hundreds of thousands of soldiers at its disposal, billions of dollars in military aid from the United States, not to mention the Iron Dome system which renders the other side's weapons almost completely useless.

There is a complete lack of understanding concerning the iron dome. We send Egypt now run by a Muslim terrorist group billions as well for some reason along with many other middle eastern countries. The billions, airplanes, and soldiers Israel has is the only reason they still exist. The appropriate response is what will quickly make Gaza unable to fire rockets and far far less than what Israel will actually do. No matter what is done it would not have been if Hamas would quit cowardly shooting rockets at kids. No rockets no casualties on either side. If they fire rockets then they should have the honor to not whine because Israel is far more capable than they are.

This is proportional to you?

There is no proportionality mandate concerning evil. Back when there used to be a Christian moral compass in the civilized western world people understood that the evil Japanese and German empires at the time did not deserve proportionality, they deserved annihilation. That was before the secular moral relativists took over.
The time for talk and half measures is over. Anonymous US General WW2.
They are in front of us, to the right, to the left, and behind us. They will not get away this time. US General Chosin reservoir Korea
The have caved in the left. They have flanked the right and are behind us. Situation is excellent. We are attacking. French General WW1 outside Paris.
As a Christian I prefer peace but when evil allows for no peace and war is necessary as a veteran I prefer a very short, all out, total war that settles the issue quickly. Proportionality has nothing at all to do with anything. Getting it over quickly and successfully has everything to do with it.

esmith · Nov 21, 2012

Vile Atheist said:
I certainly did not say that Israel should not retaliate. My position in this thread is quite clear. Any attack on Israel within its 1967 borders deserves retaliation. All I said was that the retaliation should be proportional. A few rockets being fired and doing damage does not warrant the destruction of an entire city and the killings of dozens, mostly civilians. Again, no case can be made that the Israeli response to Hamas' attack is proportional.

So, what would you consider a reasonable response to be? How about the quote attributed to Arnaud Amalric: Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. Oh, by the way, I see no reason for Israel to give back any territory. So, as far as you and I are concerned this is no longer a discussion point. If you have any other points about the present conflict, which is now under a cease fire, feel free to bring them up.

FearGod · Nov 21, 2012

England my lionheart said:
1 minute ago Jon Donnison, BBC News, Gaza tweets: #gaza streets come to life again. car horns, cheering, traffic and gunfire.

Wonder how long for.

right,they are celebrating that the israeli government were forced to accept their demands due to the huge rocket attacks which paralyzed tel aviv for one week and add to it the suicide attack which destroyed one passanger bus and the threats to start more similar attacks makes the life in israel looks as a hell.

England my lionheart · Nov 21, 2012

FearGod said:
right,they are celebrating that the israeli government were forced to accept their demands due to the huge rocket attacks which paralyzed tel aviv for one week and add to it the sucide attack which destroyed one passanger bus and the threats to start more similar attacks makes the life in israel looks as a hell.

They really want peace and a two state solution don't they,whilst they dance and celebrate perhaps they should ruminate on the nature of what they and you percieve as a victory.

FearGod · Nov 21, 2012

England my lionheart said:
They really want peace and a two state solution don't they,whilst they dance and celebrate perhaps they should ruminate on the nature of what they and you percieve as a victory.

The victory is their freedom.

Here is the text of the ceasefire agreement which is set to take effect at 1900 GMT:
"Israel shall stop all hostilities in the Gaza Strip land sea and air, including incursions and targeting of individuals.
"All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel, including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.
"Opening the crossings and facilitating the movement of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents' free movements and targeting residents in border areas. Procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.
"Other matters as may be requested shall be addressed."
"Implementation mechanism.
"Setting up the zero hour understanding to enter into effect.
"Egypt shall receive assurances from each party that the party commits to what was agreed upon.
"Each party shall commit itself not to perform any acts that would breach this understanding. In case of any observations, Egypt as a sponsor of this understanding, shall be informed to follow up."

Reference: AFP: Text of Israel-Hamas ceasefire agreement

1robin · Nov 21, 2012

England my lionheart said:
They really want peace and a two state solution don't they,whilst they dance and celebrate perhaps they should ruminate on the nature of what they and you percieve as a victory.

I think that how many women and children are killed on both sides is the mark of victory for the terrorist lunatics.

"Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children," . "I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don't think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men." Jan Egeland U.N. humanitarian chief

1robin · Nov 21, 2012

FearGod said:
The victory is their freedom.

Here is the text of the ceasefire agreement which is set to take effect at 1900 GMT:
"Israel shall stop all hostilities in the Gaza Strip land sea and air, including incursions and targeting of individuals.
"All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel, including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.
"Opening the crossings and facilitating the movement of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents' free movements and targeting residents in border areas. Procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.
"Other matters as may be requested shall be addressed."
"Implementation mechanism.
"Setting up the zero hour understanding to enter into effect.
"Egypt shall receive assurances from each party that the party commits to what was agreed upon.
"Each party shall commit itself not to perform any acts that would breach this understanding. In case of any observations, Egypt as a sponsor of this understanding, shall be informed to follow up."

Reference: AFP: Text of Israel-Hamas ceasefire agreement

Until next week when Hamas terrorists start the rocket convoys and sniping across the borders again. Then six months later Israel will shoot back and then Hamas will start whining again and there will be a similar settlement. Wash rinse repeat.

Shermana · Nov 21, 2012

Vile Atheist said:
What about other Israelis?

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Israel is not completely innocent. Stop lying.

Fake Zionist quotes, with fake sources, are a major Pallywood industry. I challenge you to find an original source for any of those. If not, would you be willing to admit that perhaps the Palis lie and have an agenda to present a distorted version of events?

CAMERA: Exposing False Zionist Quotes (Quote Busters)

Now by chance, are you aware of any of the real, recorded speeches like about "Muslims destiny is to kill Jews"? I'd bet you'd deny those however.

PA Mufti: Muslims' destiny is to kill Jews - PMW Bulletins

Muslims' destiny is to kill Jews
Resurrection will come only after Jews are killed by Muslims

And I'm willing to bet, even if you agreed that this speech was real, you'd say it was justified if they're over the "1967 borders"?

Also, with your blatant appeals to "International Law" I'd bet you not give a peep about situations like Turkey and Burma. Do you even realize that going back to the 1967 borders means handing over Judea-Samaria to Jordan, since they were the ones who occupied it? Would you even know the first thing about the real history of the situation as opposed to the Pallywood sound bites? Who the heck follows international Law? Russia? China? Mexico? Zimbabwe? South Africa? Is Israel supposed to be the world's first country to fully obey International Law dictated by the impotent UN?

And if you say that resistance among the Palestinians was justified, are you saying retaliation for that resistance was not? That Israel must be the first country in the world to accept attacks and not fire back? By that logic, you should agree that Native Americans should be able to scalp random American civilians without penalty. (And if anything, the Israelis have more of a "First nation" relation with the Native Americans than the Arabs).

And are you aware that the Palestinians already occupy 80% of the former "Mandate" and territory called "Palestine" that is now called Transjordan, (or that Jordan was just an Emirate of the Palestinian province)? And are you aware that they have flat out said that any peace treaty is just a temporary time out to get ready for the next round until they "drive the Jews into the sea" and "Reclaim all of Palestine"?

FearGod · Nov 21, 2012

1robin said:
Until next week when Hamas terrorists start the rocket convoys and sniping across the borders again. Then six months later Israel will shoot back and then Hamas will start whining again and there will be a similar settlement. Wash rinse repeat.

i think the middle east conflict is in need for a smart mind as yours.

England my lionheart · Nov 21, 2012

FearGod said:
The victory is their freedom.

Here is the text of the ceasefire agreement which is set to take effect at 1900 GMT:
"Israel shall stop all hostilities in the Gaza Strip land sea and air, including incursions and targeting of individuals.
"All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel, including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.
"Opening the crossings and facilitating the movement of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents' free movements and targeting residents in border areas. Procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.
"Other matters as may be requested shall be addressed."
"Implementation mechanism.
"Setting up the zero hour understanding to enter into effect.
"Egypt shall receive assurances from each party that the party commits to what was agreed upon.
"Each party shall commit itself not to perform any acts that would breach this understanding. In case of any observations, Egypt as a sponsor of this understanding, shall be informed to follow up."

Reference: AFP: Text of Israel-Hamas ceasefire agreement

If the ceasfire turned into a long term peace it would be great,i don't see that as being likely,Hamas are not total masters of the other factions,Islamic Jihad for example think Hamas are too soft in dealings with Israel and not under Hamas control,even the usual persuasive kneecapping will not convince them,so lets see.

FearGod · Nov 21, 2012

England my lionheart said:
If the ceasfire turned into a long term peace it would be great,i don't see that as being likely,Hamas are not total masters of the other factions,Islamic Jihad for example think Hamas are too soft in dealings with Israel and not under Hamas control,even the usual persuasive kneecapping will not convince them,so lets see.

IMHO, i think if both side have freedom on their own lands and the power for both is balanced then no one of each side will be interested in initiating any wars.

Shermana · Nov 21, 2012

FearGod said:
IMHO, i think if both side have freedom on their own lands and the power for both is balanced then no one of each side will be interested in initiating any wars.

The Palestinians have their own land, it's called Jordan, which is 80% of the former "Mandate" and territory called Palestine (It was an Emirate of the "Palestine" region). It's like 20x the size of Judea-Samaria, very underpopulated, teeming with untapped resources, and ruled by the Hashemite Tyranny which no one ever complains about for some strange reason.

Why not let them have their freedom there?

Rakhel · Nov 21, 2012

loverOfTruth said:
One huge difference in what is highlighted in the red above. Palestinians are being evicted from their rightly owned homeland and some Israelis are being evicted JUST to comply with the International law for not stealing someone else's land. If you do not see the difference between the two - I don't know what else to tell you. Not to mention that it doesn't help if you remove only few settlement from some place only to build more settlements in other areas.

Also, I do have Palestinian friends from who I hear all sorts of restrictions they have to go through. For example, my friend barely gets 2 weeks vacation from his US company to visit his family and then ends up spending one week (and sometimes it could be more) in the border controlled by the Israelis while being not sure whether he can still make it inside to see his family. Sometimes they give up. Not to mention that sick people including pregnant women actually go through much hardship waiting at the border and some cases resulting in death without treatment. This is violation of one of the most basic human rights.

You took one sentence and forgot the rest. So to that I ask, what of the land bought by Jews prior to 1948? Land they were forced to leave when Jordan came in? Land that was "illegally" given to Palestinians, and have since said it was theirs all along?
Let's tit for tat here.
Further, do you seriously think that the Palestinians are the only ones suffering from the road blocks?

Let's stop looking at one side for a bit. It can't be that hard.

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