Christians: Belief in time?

mr.guy · Jan 9, 2006

curiouslyminty said:
No I dont believe God can change at all, ever. But he can cause a change.

If he isn't subject to change, how can he effect it? Not being able to change means he can't be proded by any incentive to do anything. If it's all preordained (outside of time) then no change of anything is possible or necessary; anything you see as different one moment to the next would be completely unreal and a product of your (also) unreal imagination.

I believe the first moment to be God. The second creation. A little simplistic but accurate.

You spoke earlier of the infite subdivision of specific time. If the smallest moment in time can't be defined, how do propose to make two moments where you previously couldn't make even one?

curiouslyminty · Jan 9, 2006

Katzpur said:
Well, if you only wanted to talk to Protestants and Catholics, maybe you should have. It's not too late though. If you'd like us to leave, just say so. There are lots of other threads on the forum.

haha I just meant we are off topic.

But mormon theology has changed over time. But its STILL the idea that God used to be like us, and that how God is now we will be. Are you saying that you DONT believe that evetually you will be God to a race like we are now? If so you haven't looked at doctrine very closely yourself.

joeboonda · Jan 9, 2006

Malachi 3:6 says, "For I am the Lord, I change not..." It doesn't limit Him in being able to change things, and do things, but His nature does not change. Ya know? Remember, this is: CHRISTIANS: Belief in time? So there is the Bible verse on God not changing, anyway, what about the time thing again, lol? Ah, I gotta go to bed. Cya's!

curiouslyminty · Jan 9, 2006

mr.guy said:
If he isn't subject to change, how can he effect it? Not being able to change means he can't be proded by any incentive to do anything. If it's all preordained (outside of time) then no change of anything is possible or necessary; anything you see as different one moment to the next would be completely unreal and a product of your (also) unreal imagination.

You spoke earlier of the infite subdivision of specific time. If the smallest moment in time can't be defined, how do propose to make two moments where you previously couldn't make even one?

Actually I propose you can break it into its root part. Which is the moment with no potential energy involved.

I believe we have motive decided moment by moment. In other words we are given decisions at each moment and by our decision the next moment is born. We are given countless decisions in our life time, and we can direct our path but God will never change, and his will is definate. He still allows room for our growth and decision. I dont think that it is contradictory.

If you dont mind me asking, what do you consider yourself? Talking to a non-christian I would be making alot of assumptions about God

just wondering

mr.guy · Jan 9, 2006

curiouslyminty said:
Actually I propose you can break it into its root part. Which is the moment with no potential energy involved.

I wasn't aware that time was driven by energy. Does the same apply for all dimensions?

I believe we have motive decided moment by moment. In other words we are given decisions at each moment and by our decision the next moment is born. We are given countless decisions in our life time, and we can direct our path but God will never change, and his will is definate. He still allows room for our growth and decision. I dont think that it is contradictory.

Then god "causing" change is more incedental, not an activity on his behalf.

If you dont mind me asking, what do you consider yourself? Talking to a non-christian I would be making alot of assumptions about God just wondering

What am I? The general consensus is that i'm a jerk-off. I mostly agree with that.

Katzpur · Jan 9, 2006

curiouslyminty said:
haha I just meant we are off topic.

Ha ha. Really? So why don't you try to get it back on topic then, instead of continuing to do as you have done in the statement below:

But mormon theology has changed over time. But its STILL the idea that God used to be like us, and that how God is now we will be. Are you saying that you DONT believe that evetually you will be God to a race like we are now? If so you haven't looked at doctrine very closely yourself.

No, Mormon theology has not changed over time. Your understanding of Mormon theology is very superficial at this point. I have no idea as to whether I will ever progress as far as my God-given potential would allow. But I can tell you one thing, and I can state it definitively: I know my Church's doctrines infinitely better than you do.

By the way, as a moderator, I can delete any posts you feel are off-topic. It's your thread, and I would be happy to oblige.

searcher63 · Jan 9, 2006

Katzpur said:
Ha ha. Really? So why don't you try to get it back on topic then, instead of continuing to do as you have done in the statement below:

No, Mormon theology has not changed over time. Your understanding of Mormon theology is very superficial at this point. I have no idea as to whether I will ever progress as far as my God-given potential would allow. But I can tell you one thing, and I can state it definitively: I know my Church's doctrines infinitely better than you do.

By the way, as a moderator, I can delete any posts you feel are off-topic. It's your thread, and I would be happy to oblige.

What if GOd were one of us? Just a slob like one of us? Just a stranger on a bus....trying to make his way home...like a holy rollin' stone.....Did anyone ever think of that???

curiouslyminty · Jan 9, 2006

I wasn't aware that time was driven by energy. Does the same apply for all dimensions?

I dont think its driven by it. Thats not my intent. I only meant to say there is no potential in the moment to 'cause' the next. I really was saying the opposite. That nothing can create the next moment but God.

Then god "causing" change is more incedental, not an activity on his behalf.

No I believe he has a will, and he follows it. Not accidently but purposefully.

What am I? The general consensus is that i'm a jerk-off. I mostly agree with that.

haha, doesn't bother me a bit.

Katzpur · Jan 9, 2006

searcher63 said:
What if GOd were one of us? Just a slob like one of us? Just a stranger on a bus....trying to make his way home...like a holy rollin' stone.....Did anyone ever think of that???

I think I'm mad the series was cancelled.

It was taking a very interesting twist at the end of last season.

curiouslyminty · Jan 9, 2006

I know my Church's doctrines infinitely better than you do.

Um, thats a little hostile. Thats not something you can know. And I find it funny that I can have the books in my hand where the teachings you say are not correct.

Joseph Smith said- "He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did"

Either you believe the writings or you dont. Either the prophets of mormonism are correct or their not. Dont tell me I dont understand that. Or my understanding is infinately smaller than yours. I read, I interpret, I come to conclusions. Thats the most anyone can do, please dont belittle.

mr.guy · Jan 9, 2006

curiouslyminty said:
I only meant to say there is no potential in the moment to 'cause' the next.

What specifically does god provide to "moments" that couldn't exist otherwise?

No I believe he has a will, and he follows it. Not accidently but purposefully.

Then for now i'll assume his will is immutable (please advise). But if he cannot change, it should be a surprise to see him do anything not previously declared or "willed". Being outside time, he'd have no worries of paradox in his non-decisive, non-sequitous existence (a la bill+ted's excellent adventure; well, sorta). But as he has no potential or occasion to change his mind, "will" seems a moot attribute.

Katzpur · Jan 9, 2006

curiouslyminty said:
Um, thats a little hostile.

Really? I didn't think so. You said, "Are you saying that you DONT believe that evetually you will be God to a race like we are now? If so you haven't looked at doctrine very closely yourself." If that's not implying that you know LDS doctrine better than I do, I don't know what is.

Thats not something you can know.

Joseph Smith said- "He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did"

Either you believe the writings or you dont. Either the prophets of mormonism are correct or their not. Dont tell me I dont understand that. Or my understanding is infinately smaller than yours. I read, I interpret, I come to conclusions. Thats the most anyone can do, please dont belittle.

I won't belittle if you won't insult my intelligence by pretending that you know as much about Mormon doctrine as I do. After all, who has been asking the questions here? You or me? How long have you studied Mormonism? How many LDS Church worship services have you attended? And finally, have you read my post #70 on the thread you started about Mormonism? I am more than willing to have a civil discussion with you, CM, but not until you get it through your head that (1) not everything Joseph Smith ever said was official doctrine and (2) there are some doctrines we know very little about. Your trying to back me into a corner over this particular teaching is going to get you nowhere. If you are curious as to what we believe, then go to our Church's official website and start reading. Ask questions about what you find there and take advantage of a group of six or eight knowledgable Mormons who would be willing to answer your questions. And when we answer them, take us at our word. Is that too much to ask?

curiouslyminty · Jan 9, 2006

What specifically does god provide to "moments" that couldn't exist otherwise?

Im trying to say that in any specific moment there is nothing to cause it to go into the next without God. In other words, without God there would be no moments. No human progression.

I would hope that a time travel machine is never created or not only would the foundations of religion find itself on shifting sand but also the very world we live in.

curiouslyminty · Jan 9, 2006

Katz I'm backing down. A debater at heart i guess...

Hostile relations are not the goal.

mr.guy · Jan 9, 2006

curiouslyminty said:
Im trying to say that in any specific moment there is nothing to cause it to go into the next without God. In other words, without God there would be no moments. No human progression.

I understand. What exactly does god bring to the table that without leaves time impudent?

I would hope that a time travel machine is never created or not only would the foundations of religion find itself on shifting sand but also the very world we live in.

!?!??

How so? If god can't be changed, he can't be harmed. If his (immutable) will can't be altered, then reality cannot be disturbed from his constant intention. If he's outside time, any screwing with it cannot effect him, and it would have been forseen/directed in the first place.

Katzpur · Jan 9, 2006

curiouslyminty said:
Katz I'm backing down. A debater at heart i guess... Hostile relations are not the goal.

CM, Hostile reactions are not my goal either, and there is nothing I'd like more than to have a respectful exchange of ideas with you. You don't know me really well, yet, but as you get to know me, you'll probably find that I am not an in-your-face kind of person who isn't happy unless she's shoving her beliefs down your throat -- that is to say, I'm not going to try to convert you. Like you, though, I'm a debater at heart. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. I'm also reasonably tough-skinned. You have to be in order to survive as a Mormon on a forum like this. I'm knowledgable in my religion's beliefs and am willing to tackle the difficult questions people throw at me.

I'm going to say just one thing about Joseph Smith's statement from the King Follett Discourse (see, I knew your source without your even having to tell me). This statement is a technically uncanonized doctrine that most Mormons accept as having some validity. The problem is, this one statement, along with one made years later by another of our leaders is all we have to go on. Here's how we see it: Okay, this is what Joseph Smith said. Maybe there's something to it. If there is, we would need to have a whole lot more information on the subject than we do in order to make sense of it. If it were important to God that we know the full implications of that statement, we believe that God would speak to our living Prophet and fill him in on the details. Since that doesn't appear to be what God has in mind, we'll drop it for now. Joseph Smith restored a lot of incredible doctrines. I believe that with all my heart. And they are doctrines we have a lot of information on. Official information. Canonized information. Enough to keep you learning for a long time.

Good night now. Maybe we can talk more tomorrow.

Dentonz · Jan 14, 2006

curiouslyminty said:
I'm going to try my hardest to explain what I mean without using math, because I'm afraid that would alienate from my post. But I want to explain my view of time.

I believe time, although unable to be fully explained, refers to any form of progression of thought or energy. In other words I don't believe that time exist seperately from creation. It is created when any change anywhere occurs.

For example- Before the creation of earth, I believe God was in a state of stasis. Completely self contained, knew all, needed nothing. In that state time would not have existed and the moment would be everlasting.

Another more easy to understand example. What defines a moment? If we take a second, and continually split it. We can get closer... and closer to a specific moment. But when does it get so small that it can't be divided? When is it in its absolute parts? And whats more... what allows for the connection from one absolute part to the next?

I believe its the progression of God. As God moves so do we. Through an unexplained creation of moments one after another that we live in but cannot explain.

I have wondered if heaven and hell are called eternal due to the state we are in, and not the amount of moments afterward. In other words, a moment. Singular but everlasting. Whether in a state of judgement and abandonment (hell) or acceptance and forgiveness (heaven), its just eternal in its implications not its amount of time because time would not longer exist.

I know this doesn't go well with mormon's view of God. But being a math major and a protestant I find it rather intruiging view. Thoughts?

ps- its impossible to talk about timeless-ness without using temporal terminology. Its a fallacy of human language, hopefully my thoughts are getting through even with that barrier. :banghead3

In eternity there is not a 'moment'. Like God; he was and is and always will be at the same time. He oversees creation and armeggedon at once.

Dentonz · Jan 14, 2006

curiouslyminty said:
Im trying to say that in any specific moment there is nothing to cause it to go into the next without God. In other words, without God there would be no moments. No human progression.

I would hope that a time travel machine is never created or not only would the foundations of religion find itself on shifting sand but also the very world we live in.

I believe the concept of time was created for mankind to have purpose.

Christians: Belief in time?

mr.guy

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curiouslyminty

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joeboonda

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curiouslyminty

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mr.guy

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Katzpur

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searcher63

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curiouslyminty

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Katzpur

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curiouslyminty

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mr.guy

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Katzpur

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curiouslyminty

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curiouslyminty

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mr.guy

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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon

Dentonz

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Dentonz

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