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Go with your gut if that's what you're feeling. The anti-Mormon literature that you've picked up has accomplished its goal. I've read it all and most of the stuff in those books is hilarious.
Well I'm going to try to answer all of the questions brought up in this post.curiouslyminty said:Hey a thread that I probably should have jumped on immediately. First being a STICKLER you could find small number errors.. names.. ect But that is in both the original text and the book of mormon. So I hope to merely stick with theological problems I see.. but i will also throw in alot of joseph smith things, mainly because thats what I've been researching today.. Here we goooo-
---- Number of God's Issue. ESPECIALLY since common mormon thought has been at times that we eventually become Gods.
MORMONISM: "And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth." - Joseph Smith, (allegedly from a translation of an ancient papyrus), Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 4:1
Should i get into the doctrine books... LDS believe we eventually become Gods but i guess you already know that.
CHRISTIANITY: "You are my witnesses, " declares the Lord, "And my servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me." - Isaiah 43:10
-----This one could get me into trouble... But you can take what you want front it.
MORMONISM: "While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor. He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. ... He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; ... He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fullness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;" - Joseph Smith, The Origin of the Book of Mormon, the Book of Mormon
CHRISTIANITY: "But though we, or an Angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed." - the apostle Paul, Galatians 1:8-9
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." - the apostle Paul, 2 Corinthians 11:13-14 -- Hehe.. maybe you see my point.
Realize it says a gospel contrary to that which you have received! In other words they had already heard the fullness of the gospel. You could never say that they needed anything else. Which I hear mormon's saying many times. That as a disbeliever in the bom, I won't receive the fullness of heaven.
---next are some quotes that shout invalid at me--
WOW.. ouch. Your telling me NOT even jesus did as great a work at joseph smith. I dont even need to find verses for this.
-- This is my favorite thing I have found today!!
On January 19, 1841 (notice the date!), God said (Doctrine &Covenants 124: 1617):
Joseph Smith reported in the History of the Church, 5:42-43, the following, quoting his letter to the governor of Illinois:
So God was just unaware? Or perhaps someone was falsely speaking for God?
--next-
What was the name of the angel who appeared to Joseph Smith in 1823 and later delivered to him the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated?
Most Mormons believe his name was "Moroni," as reported in modern editions of the Pearl of Great Price (JS-History 1:33).
But in reality The earliest reports by Joseph Smith and others gave his name as "Nephi" (a completely different character in the BoM who supposedly lived a thousand years before Moroni), including the 1851 edition of the PoGP, the 1853 biography of Smith by his mother (Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith p 79), and two early Mormon periodicals The Millennial Star 3:53, 71, and Times and Seasons 3:749, 753 (the latter personally edited by Smith himself)
So why change it after the fact? ..well to be honest that happens alot looking at the 1851 edition. I would REALLY REALLY endorse reading the early versions. It will open your eyes if your willing.
Hopefully I made my point that I find SO much skeptism in the prophets of mormonism that I don't believe I could ever trust man more than God. And my gut feeling and intuition says caution...
I havent read everything of course. I read the (LDS)Book of Mormon before I ever came to the forums though. What I do now is do word searches through the books that I think mormons would generall agree with. Words like deity, salvation, grace. The later teachings can get a bit superfluous... but the original BoM I find very easy to navigate and peruse.jonny said:Yep, nothing could persuade me. Thanks for respecting that.
What website are you getting all this information from? I'm fairly certain that you are not reading through the entire History of the Church, Mormon Doctrine, Pearl of Great Price, Journal of Discourses etc. and pulling out all these obscure quotes on your own. If you are reading all these books cover to cover, I apologize for doubting you.
Always consider the source. There are people who make a career out of finding little things to rip on Mormons for. If it makes them happy, more power to them. I personally find it a pathetic waste of time.
Please don't be offended if I don't take the time to debate issues brought up by anti-Mormon authors. I don't mind answering questions that people come up with on their own, but I've found that going through anti-Mormon stuff is an endless cycle. There are posters on the forums that enjoy going through it and disputing it, but I'm not one of them. I just don't think anyone gets anywhere.
With topics like this I usually can't put it down till I have came to a strong belief or disbelief. I'm slightly (ha) OCD.
curiouslyminty said:Hey a thread that I probably should have jumped on immediately. First being a STICKLER you could find small number errors.. names.. ect But that is in both the original text and the book of mormon. So I hope to merely stick with theological problems I see.. but i will also throw in alot of joseph smith things, mainly because thats what I've been researching today.. Here we goooo-
I think mormon man described this one fairly well. There are many Lords, and many Gods, but we only have one God, and he has been our god from the beginning, and he will never cease to be our God.curiouslyminty said:
For you to logically be able to debate that point, you're going to have to show us that our gospel is a gospel that is contrary to the one in the Bible.curiouslyminty said:
Sure, I see your point. But you're essentially saying, "The Mormon gospel is contrary to the Biblical gospel, and therefore Joesepeh smith was a false propeht." That kind of logical just doesn't fly. You have to say how the gospel is contrary, and then we can go from there.curiouslyminty said:
Possibly. They could possibly have heard the fullness, but that doesn't necessarily mean the fullness was written down (in the Bible). They could have also only received part of it (depending on who "they" were), but of course a partial thing isn't going to contradict the full thing; it will just lack some stuff.curiouslyminty said:
And you could never say they didn't. Both view points are speculation.curiouslyminty said:
I think you're blowing that way out of proportion. Like John Lennon's "Jesus" comment. You're inferring things you aren't meant to infer.curiouslyminty said:
Look at the quote. It says that he will be rewarded if he follows god, and stuff like that. People have free will. They can choose to follow god, or not. If they don't, they won't become great. That quote has conditional statements in it.curiouslyminty said:-- This is my favorite thing I have found today!!
On January 19, 1841 (notice the date!), God said (Doctrine &Covenants 124: 16?17):
Joseph Smith reported in the History of the Church, 5:42-43, the following, quoting his letter to the governor of Illinois:
So God was just unaware? Or perhaps someone was falsely speaking for God?
The Bible teaches that God was always God and nowhere suggests that he is an exalted man who became a God. The Bible is emphatic in stating that he is eternal and that there are no other gods.
1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
I thought in Revelation at the end of the Great Tribulation, Christ restores His Kingdom and the Millenial Reign begins then, Christ does it, not man..
Who might a wolf be but one that adds to God's word things God never said in His Word?
44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
Well, I tried to...curiouslyminty said:
I just think that you can't find an orthodox group who would agree on the possibilty of other Gods' anywhere in time or in the world. Whether my God or not. And the reason would be that Its a dramatic shift from the original christians Imo Read into the bible after a later decision.
Who are the beings described in the Old Testament as "gods"?curiouslyminty said:
Well, how about these...curiouslyminty said:
