Has everything been predestined since the dawn of time?

So I was thinking today, isn't everything predestined? You start with a persons environment and childhood, how you are raised determines your future thought process and reactions to outside stimuli, and your genetic makeup determines the intellectual reasoning you use to react. The same applies to your parents and their parents so on and so forth to the first generation. So what would be a good argument that not everything, every action and reaction aren't predestined? If everything is predestined then we have no free will, its just an illusion, a self delusion.

Well, we are free to make mistakes if nothing else. I once watched a video of a girl who went to grab a container of syrup and instead she mistakenly grabbed the container of coffee, which she poured on her pancakes. Mistakes are one of our greatest freedoms, not to mention a great source of amusement.

What you describe is causal flatworld.

Shuddhasattva said:

What you describe is causal flatworld.

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I'm not too sure what that is but if it is what I've stated above what are arguments against it?

An understanding of how complex causal processes actually are. With all our knowledge of physics, there is neither a compelling argument for or against deterministic mechanics. The ones that do seem most deterministic also seem most exposed to randomness, in such a way as to make 'realities which furcate with every quantum outcome' seem plausible due to the latent coexistence of all possible possibilities.

Definite mechanics? Random ones? ... Choices?

They don't seem all that distinct in the end, I think.

HeartFire said:

Well, we are free to make mistakes if nothing else. I once watched a video of a girl who went to grab a container of syrup and instead she mistakenly grabbed the container of coffee, which she poured on her pancakes. Mistakes are one of our greatest freedoms, not to mention a great source of amusement.

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Even mistakes would be considered predestined. For instance, mistakes are made due to lack of attention. If a person is too tired to pay attention to what they are doing then another individuals choice or your own choice has put you in that state of mind. Again, you would be predestined to make the mistake because you were predestined to be in the state of mind to make the mistake.

Shuddhasattva said:

An understanding of how complex causal processes actually are. With all our knowledge of physics, there is neither a compelling argument for or against deterministic mechanics. The ones that do seem most deterministic also seem most exposed to randomness, in such a way as to make 'realities which furcate with every quantum outcome' seem plausible due to the latent coexistence of all possible possibilities.

Definite mechanics? Random ones? ... Choices?

They don't seem all that distinct in the end, I think.

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A good explanation, however, what is the proof that anything is random? For example, if you decided to walk next to a cliff and a rock fell on your head and killed you would that be considered random chance even though the weather over a period of time caused the erosion that caused the rock to fall, weather that from the beginning of time operates in a pattern that is anything but random. Or the choice that was made to walk next to a cliff that was based again upon environment, genetics, and upbringing. So I guess it isn't how you define predestination but rather how you define random chance that matters.

gseeker said:

A good explanation, however, what is the proof that anything is random? For example, if you decided to walk next to a cliff and a rock fell on your head and killed you would that be considered random chance even though the weather over a period of time caused the erosion that caused the rock to fall, weather that from the beginning of time operates in a pattern that is anything but random. Or the choice that was made to walk next to a cliff that was based again upon environment, genetics, and upbringing. So I guess it isn't how you define predestination but rather how you define random chance that matters.

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Yes, seemingly random newtonian mechanics are, provisionally, deterministically mechanistic. What composes them?

gseeker said:

So I was thinking today, isn't everything predestined? You start with a persons environment and childhood, how you are raised determines your future thought process and reactions to outside stimuli, and your genetic makeup determines the intellectual reasoning you use to react. The same applies to your parents and their parents so on and so forth to the first generation. So what would be a good argument that not everything, every action and reaction aren't predestined? If everything is predestined then we have no free will, its just an illusion, a self delusion.

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It is true that a person's environment and childhood have a profound affect upon him or her, as does genetics. However, according to the Bible, God our Creator allows us to determine what course in life we follow. And indeed, many have made drastic changes from their former practices. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) Joshua told the nation of Israel to "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve." (Joshua 24:15) We also can choose, I believe.

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gseeker said:

Even mistakes would be considered predestined. For instance, mistakes are made due to lack of attention. If a person is too tired to pay attention to what they are doing then another individuals choice or your own choice has put you in that state of mind. Again, you would be predestined to make the mistake because you were predestined to be in the state of mind to make the mistake.

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I disagree. Predestined mistakes? No. Our mistakes are not foreordained, predetermined, or anything of the like. I wrote the following in another thread as it relates to the concept of freewill:

We are driven by our desires. We will always act according to our strongest desire. Many factors influence us, whether they be internal or external. We are somewhat bound, yet we are likewise able to manipulate our desires through knowledge and understanding.

Our destiny is not set in stone in other words. The more we learn and the more we come to understand how life works, the more we leave ignorance behind, thus potentially changing our destiny. Life is a great teacher. Through life we are able to learn wisdom.

With wisdom comes better informed decisions. Soon our old thoughtless choices are changed into informed choices, but not before our desires have been manipulated through education.

We are neither free nor bound. I think we are forever growing into better informed people. I suppose one could argue that growth is inevitable for the aware. I suppose one could effectively argue against free will. However, no matter the reality, we are at least free enough to make mistakes.

rusra02 said:

(1 Corinthians 6:9-11) Joshua told the nation of Israel to "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve." (Joshua 24:15) We also can choose, I believe.

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I agree with this as the answer to the title, choice is all we have.
In hindsight it will appear predestined, foresight will show we can only make choices (or turn to imagination).

Well I don't follow the bible anymore but if genetics, environment, and childhood determine actions and reactions in the future choices, you don't have free will and that concept of christian belief is proven false. That doesn't influence our choices but instead everything sets us on the path to make the ''choices'' we make.

gseeker said:

If everything is predestined then we have no free will, its just an illusion, a self delusion.

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Yes. I have only the illusion of free will.
Eons ago, perhaps even forever, it was predetermined that I would answer thus.

gseeker said:

So what would be a good argument that not everything, every action and reaction aren't predestined?

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The future does not yet exist. We rely on existent events to form our picture of the past, and that is as reliable as it may be, but we cannot do that for the future. Our pictures of the future are of something unactual. If we consider that an uncountable number of variables may alter that picture in uncountable ways, there is no truly reliable prediction of unactual events, not in the same way that the past is reliable.

So while we may say that the future is predetermined and we are predestined, with no reliable knowledge of what's to come that statement serves absolutely no purpose. It's essentially nothing more than a lovely fantasy.

Willamena said:

The future does not yet exist.

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The future exists exactly as much as the past exists - our maps of both are inferred from evidence. The territories, however, are more complicated.

gseeker said:

So I was thinking today, isn't everything predestined? You start with a persons environment and childhood, how you are raised determines your future thought process and reactions to outside stimuli, and your genetic makeup determines the intellectual reasoning you use to react. The same applies to your parents and their parents so on and so forth to the first generation. So what would be a good argument that not everything, every action and reaction aren't predestined? If everything is predestined then we have no free will, its just an illusion, a self delusion.

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We have a will, but it is certainly determined.

Was it not, sociology and psychology would be useless, and history would teach nothing.

Me Myself said:

We have a will, but it is certainly determined.

Was it not, sociology and psychology would be useless, and history would teach nothing.

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How do we determine the degree of determinacy?

Shuddhasattva said:

How do we determine the degree of determinacy?

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what makes you think there is a non determinacy in the first place?

We have as much free will as a tornado

Me Myself said:

what makes you think there is a non determinacy in the first place?

We have as much free will as a tornado

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It's obviously pre-determined that I don't believe in absolute determinacy in a way that makes sense within an omniversal context.

I can't see a clear link established between quantum indeterminacy and absence of choice, nor do I understand conscious processes enough insofar as they stem from physical energy being processed to disregard the idea that choice sorts and selects, in some manner, quantum outcomes.

Shuddhasattva said:

It's obviously pre-determined that I don't believe in absolute determinacy in a way that makes sense within an omniversal context.

I can't see a clear link established between quantum indeterminacy and absence of choice, nor do I understand conscious processes enough insofar as they stem from physical energy being processed to disregard the idea that choice sorts and selects, in some manner, quantum outcomes.

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If quantum outcomes are being chosen, what is doing the choosing?