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The Book of Mormon

dan

Well-Known Member
In the BOM we read that Jesus "shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem, which is in the land of our forefathers" (Alma 7:10).

But Jesus was born in Bethlehem, not Jerusalem (Matt. 2:1). ???? What gives?

This is a common fault people find with the Book of Mormon thanks to (forgotten word), which is the misunderstanding of literature because of a difference in time or customs. Corban's answer is also correct, (I love finding examples in the Bible of "mistakes" people find in the Book of Mormon) but find a dictionary from 1830 on ebay and look up the word "at." It will say, "in, around, next to, or near." This problem wasn't pointed out by people during Joseph Smith's day because they used the word "at" to mean "near by," which Jerusalem is, in relation to Bethlehem.

As for the texts you've so masterfully copied from an anti-mormon website, they are taken out of context, misinterpreted, or downright misquoted. Mormon Doctrine (the printing you quote from) was not approved by the first presidency, and the book has always carried a disclaimer stating that the doctrine contained therein is the opinion of the author and not actual Mormon doctrine. Why is it you guys always insist on including the page number and everything when you copy these quotes?
 

Corban

Member
SOGFPP said:
"Hiya Corban!

Yes, I have read the BOM.... several times, in fact.

Question:

In the BOM we read that Jesus "shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem, which is in the land of our forefathers" (Alma 7:10).

But Jesus was born in Bethlehem, not Jerusalem (Matt. 2:1). ???? What gives?" -SOGFPP

The weakness of this argument shines greater light on the strength of the testimony of the Book of Mormon.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Hello all,
Where to start....?
corban said:
and as for Catholics, wow you missed the mark let's look at what the church has said
This is almost funny.... a Mormon trying to teach the Catholic faith to a Catholic :bonk:
corban, I did not ask for a history lesson.... those quotes are 500+ years old...... current Catholic teaching is that non-Catholics and not Christians may be saved.

I noticed that you chose to attack the Catholic Church (suprise suprise)and did not provide documentation from a source that showed my quotes are inaccurate.

corban said:
Ask a catholic what happens if your not baptised by a catholic priest. They informed me that if i wasn't i would go to hell, and not only that children born to catholic parents who don't recieve baptism before they die go to hell.
Corban.... I AM A CATHOLIC. I teach the faith to new Catholics..... I think I know better than YOU what the RCC teaches. The above quote is gross ignorance or an outright lie on your behalf....... just know that it is completely untrue.

corban, you seem to think I am trying to attack your faith.... I am not. Show an ounce of self-restraint and answer my questions without casting stones back at my faith. If you can EDUCATE me about the true teachings of your faith, DO SO. To just lash back at my faith shows more about the faith and the morals of your church than quoting the BOM 1,000 can do.

salam said:
Yeah....um....there is just one problem with this statement, Jesus (peace be upon him) never set up his own church. The church was set up after he died.
Incorrect. Why you felt the need to add that, I have no idea. If you would like an education about the subject, feel free to start another thread.

dan said:
As for the texts you've so masterfully copied from an anti-mormon website, they are taken out of context, misinterpreted, or downright misquoted.
OK......... SHOW ME! You and your pal corban are too busy on the offensive against the Catholic Church and the proper use of the word "at" to actually think for one second that I am trying to EDUCATE myself about your faith.

Slow your anger for one second and teach.

corban said:
The weakness of this argument shines greater light on the strength of the testimony of the Book of Mormon.
Ok you win.......... happy now?

Anyone else from the Church of the LDS care to educate me about your faith. Corban seem more interested in winning a debate and attacking other human beings.... I hope this is not representative of your faith.

Thanks in advance,
Scott
 

Corban

Member
SOGFPP said:
Hello all,
"Where to start....?
This is almost funny.... a Mormon trying to teach the Catholic faith to a Catholic :bonk:
corban, I did not ask for a history lesson.... those quotes are 500+ years old...... current Catholic teaching is that non-Catholics and not Christians may be saved." -SOGFFP

The essence of our church is revelation. When Jesus was on the earth he established his church and called apostles and prophets to lead it after his ascension, and they led it according to revelation. After a time the church was lost, and now has been restored again through prophets and apostles.

Thank you for your statement, it is a wonderful example of the falling away and the need for Christ to restore his church in our day. Your faith and your above statement are evidence to that fact that the true church was lost. Those quotes are 500 years old, it is true, but if you church was led by God, wouldn't what God taught 500 years ago be the same as today. and when did they change the doctrine and by what authority did it change. was it by revelation? and if so to whom? Your statements shows exactly what Joseph Smith was told when God said join none of them, for they have all gone astray. When a church is not led by God the doctrine disintegrates and is corrupted as you have so aptly shown by this huge doctrinal shift over the last 500 years in your faith regarding something so essential as salvation.

that is precisely why God had to restore the truth, and why God said none of the churches had the saving truths because they had all been corrupted.
 

Corban

Member
SOGFPP said:
Thanks Corban,

You have shown me the fruits of your faith.

Peace be with you,
Scott

I'm sorry your so offended. this site probable isn't for you if don't want to discuss your faith and get offended when someone disagrees. You seemed so eager to attack my faith, but i can understand when there is such huge holes in your argument i'd walk away too. you did the right thing
 

Corban

Member
Lightkeeper said:
I haven't read the Book of Mormon. I must say though that every Mormon I have met is a wonderful person. They are very caring and have good moral values. I have a Mormon friend. She believes that she originated in heaven, was chosen by God, and sent to Earth. She believes she will return to God. Is this part of the Book of Mormon or is this her particular belief?

That is part of the Book of Mormon. We believe the Book of Mormon is a companion scripture to the Bible, it stands as another testament of Jesus Christ and therefore sheds greater light on His gospel.

The bofM teaches we all lived as spirits before we came to this earth. God had a plan for our progression that involved us coming to earth to gain a physical body and have opportunities to grow. our ultimate purpose is to return to live with God.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
dolly said:
With the Book of Mormon? Please. There isn't the slightest bit of archealogical evidence for those societies existing. If there is, please show it to me.

He did. Chiasm is one of the finest proofs of the BoM that one can find, and I'd like to point out that you edited it out of your reply without answering it. The entire book of 1st Nephi is a single Chiasmus, with additional matching parallels so intricate that they defy coincidence. Try explaining that in the context of Joseph Smith.

1) no evidence of the Lamanites and Nephites civilizations, people, cities, etc.

Unless you count the "Works of Itlilxochitl," written in AD 1600 by an Aztec prince who wanted to compile the oral history of his people into a text. It cites several migrations across the water from the East, migrations that match the BoM migrations. The dates he gives match BoM dates, including the splitting of one group into two (Nephites and Lamanites) and the eventual extinction of the Nephites at the hands of the Lamanites.

AND

The wall murals found at Chichen Itza and Bonampak that show the same "light and dark skinned" people that Itlilxochitl refers to ranged for battle. Chichen Itza also has carvings of a bearded man on a horse that dates from pre-Columbian times--carvings that support the BoM claim that horses and bearded men were here before Columbus.

2) no unquestionable, accepted evidence of "reformed Egyptian" existing

Charles Anton may have ripped up his certificate of authenticity that he gave to Martin Harris, but in letters to friends he claimed the work was authentic, and Martin Harris' use of the term "Egyptian Shorthand" for reformed Egyptian is taken directly from a publication that Anton had read recently, that Harris had no knowledge of.

3) some parts of the Book of Mormon contradict Mormon beliefs

Example, please?

4) the BoM quotes from the King James Bible that wasn't written 1200 years + after the original copy of the BoM was supposedly written

Actually, it quotes from earlier texts, but Joseph chose to phrase them in King James English.

For example, in Isaiah 2:16, quoted in 2 Nephi 12:16, the Greek version (Septuagint) reads "ships of the sea" while the Hebrew reads "ships of Tarshish." The BoM version has both phrases, which suggests it quotes an earlier source material from which the other two each lost a phrase.

5) It has translation errors from the King James Bible in it.

Example?

6) Most of the doctrines of Mormonism aren't from the BoM, but from another text (Doctrine and Covenants), but that contradicts the D&C.

Example of a contradiction?

[edit: I missed part of the discussion, apparently; looks like some examples have been provided already, but I'll need to pin down if any have gone unanswered. In the mean time, feel free to provide more examples!]
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Corban,


I'd love to walk away from this thread, but it seems I have to coment on a few more things...

I'm sorry your so offended. this site probable isn't for you if don't want to discuss your faith and get offended when someone disagrees.
I'm not offended at all... don't know why you would think that.
I am sad that the LDS faith is being represented here by someone so opposite to my Mormon friends... it's a shame.
You seemed so eager to attack my faith, but i can understand when there is such huge holes in your argument i'd walk away too. you did the right thing
The problem is, I NEVER INTENDED TO ATTACK YOUR FAITH. Your arrogance and anger blinded you to the fact I was only asking questions to educate myself about a faith that, because of a very close friend who is a Mormon, I am very interested in dispelling any misconceptions that I encounter.
Pride is a sin my friend, Mormon or not....... before you get hurt patting yourself on the back for the "huge holes" in my argument, realize that you have made your faith look hateful and foolish by attacking someone who was only looking for an answer (however clear it was to you) to a honest question I had.

I would print this thread out and show it to your elders if I were you.... I think you need some education in patience and tolerance.

..... but who am I? Just a Catholic fool on his way to hell, right?

:(
Scott
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
SOGFPP said:
I am sad that the LDS faith is being represented here by someone so opposite to my Mormon friends... it's a shame.
The problem is, I NEVER INTENDED TO ATTACK YOUR FAITH.

I haven't read everything that's been happening between you and Corban, but I can appreciate your desire to educate yourself and understand your friends. I'd really love it it you'd stay around and talk to me about this--I'm new here, and now that I see how long this discussion is, I'm worried my previous post might be seen as antagonistic.

..... but who am I? Just a Catholic fool on his way to hell, right?

I don't think so at all! Please stay and talk with me about this. I'll look back through yours and Corban's discussions and post my views. Hopefully I'll resemble your LDS friends a little.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
DeepShadow,

Thanks for your reply.

Please stay and talk with me about this. I'll look back through yours and Corban's discussions and post my views. Hopefully I'll resemble your LDS friends a little.
Thanks for the offer..... don't worry about me going anywhere soon, this is my home away from home!

I just want to know the truth without arrogance...... disagreement does not have to imply disrespect....... I look forward to hearing your views about this discussion, and learning about your faith. (you are a member of the LDS church, right?.... I don't remember seeing that in your member ID)

Scott
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
DianJo said:
They also believe something about - If you're a Mormon "in good standing" (provided you've tithed correctly)

I've been in a Christian church where people would actually monitor how much everyone tithed, so please don't infer this is 'a Mormon' thing.

DianJo said:
that when you die, you will become a god, like God, and have your own planet to rule over! How whacked is that! They also believe in a plurality of gods - like paganism?!

Because Heaven forfend one should be like a pagan! *shudders at the very idea*
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
(All right, everyone, I've spent several weeks praying and researching for the best way to answer this, but Latter-Day-Saints use many terms--particularly "sin," "hell," and "damned"--differently than how they are commonly understood. Discussing these issues properly requires a serious paradigm shift. Rather than write a book here covering all the possible questions you might have, I'll just give you a short answer and hope I can answer any questions that result. This is a discussion group, after all.)

Do these statements reflect the beliefs of the modern LDS church? In a word, no. More to the point, few if any of these reflected the beliefs of the church at the time they were written. Dan said these statements were taken out of context, and that's probably true, but it must be more than that, because one wonders what kind of context could possibly render them anything other than hate-mongering. Before dealing with the statements individually, I'd like to address the topic in general as best I can.

The LDS church has a clearly defined group of people authorized to speak on behalf of the church--namely Apostles and First Presidencies. Here's what some of them have said regarding other churches:

Gordon B. Hinckley, “We recognize the good in all churches. We recognize the value of religion generally. We say to everyone: live the teachings which you have received from your church. We invite you to come and learn from us, to see if we can add to those teachings and enhance your life and your understanding of things sacred and divine. Now we work with people of other faiths on common causes, many of them across the world. We recognize theological differences. We believe that we can disagree theologically without being disagreeable, and we hope to do so. We have been rather careful about surrendering in any way our doctrinal standards, anything of that kind as part of an ecumenical effort, but we certainly have worked with people, and do work with people, and want to work with other groups in tackling common social problems, things of that kind which are so much in need of attention these days throughout the world” (interview with Lawrence Spicer, London News Service, 28 Aug. 1995).

Gordon B. Hinckley, Remarks at Pioneer Day Commemoration Concert:
"This city and state have now become the home of many people of great diversity in their backgrounds, beliefs, and religious persuasions. I plead with our people to welcome them, to befriend them, to mingle with them, to associate with them in the promulgation of good causes."

"As I have said before, we must not be clannish. We must never adopt a holier-than-thou attitude. We must not be self-righteous. We must be magnanimous and open and friendly. We can keep our faith. We can practice our religion. We can cherish our method of worship without being offensive to others. I take this occasion to plead for a spirit of tolerance and neighborliness, of friendship and love toward those of other faiths."

Joseph Smith, Articles of Faith 1:11 "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

Brigham Young: “To be adverse to Gentiles [as the word was then used], because they are Gentiles, or Jews, because they are Jews, is in direct opposition to the genius of our religion. It matters not what a man’s creed is, whether it be Catholic, or Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Quaker, or Jew, he will receive kindness and friendship from us” (quoted in Preston Nibley, Brigham Young: The Man and His Work [1936], 416).

Although they don't speak for the church authoritatively, quite a few others have expressed opinions in similar directions that have been published in church magazines:
L. Harold Wright, “We Made Friends from Other Faiths,” Ensign, June 1976, 52
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway....76.htm/we made friends from other faiths .htm

Gerald E. Jones, “Respect for Other People’s Beliefs,” Ensign, Oct. 1977, 69
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway....977.htm/respect for other peoples beliefs.htm

Looking at your examples, neither Brigham H. Roberts nor Bruce R. McConkie was an Apostle of the LDS church when their books were written. As such, even if they said these things, it is opinion only. Whiw he was an Apostle at one point, Orson Pratt was excommunicated for teaching false doctrine--not a pristine source of information. This book you reference is only slightly less suspect than The Seer, which Orson wrote during his period of apostasy. The Taylor quote is a doozy, because it appears to come from the mouth of a prophet, but there's one serious problem: the Journal of Discourses was a collection of books written by well-meaning but unauthorized members who wrote down as much as they could to send overseas to those who didn't hear the prophet/Apostles speak. Not only were they uninspired in what to copy, but the books are riddled with transcription errors, misquotes, and statements of questionable origin. Select portions of the books have been included in LDS study manuals with the approval of the First Presidency (and are therefore fair game for critics) but the rest remain apocryphal in the extreme.

I've got lots more, but this should be enough to get some feedback, and I'll be able to direct my comments better after that.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Thanks for this Deep.

This is the best explaination I have gotten in two years of asking similar questions.

I knew this forum would be the place to get answers! Hooray for ReligiousForums.com! :jiggy:

Thanks again,
Scott
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
The biggest impression ever made by a commercial on me, was from the Morman church, it ended with these words, "Forgive him, it will teach him a lesson."

A real message of hate. Yeah, right!!!!
 
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