My New View of the (non)Trinity

Thanks for that Mich,

In that case i'll retract this statement

Probably not as you believe in the trinitarian nature of God. But i'm not talking about that.

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However, i'm still confused:sorry1:

Michel said:

...in the mean time, do you believe in "one almighty God" ? no definitions as in God YHWH, or Allah..........just one almighty God ?

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I believe in The One, which is similar to the Tao, and the One/the Source of Wiccan beliefs. I believe it is existance in its entirety, all possibilities exist within The One. I also believe this is the Father Jesus believed in.

Also though, i believe in beings called the gods, entities which emanated from The One just as this universe and we did. So, sticking with the idea of Jesus's God, i believe that he understood The One as being the ultimate truth (in other words he was a Gnostic), but i also accept that he worshipped an emanated being called YHWH.

Does that answer your question? I'm not very good at explaining what i believe.

Halcyon said:

Thanks for that Mich,

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In that case i'll retract this statement However, i'm still confused:sorry1:

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Don't worry, you're not the only one!

I believe in The One, which is similar to the Tao, and the One/the Source of Wiccan beliefs. I believe it is existance in its entirety, all possibilities exist within The One. I also believe this is the Father Jesus believed in.

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I can understand that; to me, that is God.

Also though, i believe in beings called the gods, entities which emanated from The One just as this universe and we did. So, sticking with the idea of Jesus's God, i believe that he understood The One as being the ultimate truth (in other words he was a Gnostic), but i also accept that he worshipped an emanated being called YHWH.

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I guess I can go along with that too.

Does that answer your question? I'm not very good at explaining what i believe

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Seems to me you did rather well.

I think we are possible talking about the same thing, but in different terminology.

You know I believe in reincarnation; perhaps, to put it in 'your language', I believe that the sum parts of God, all the souls, and nature are a constant; sometimes the souls are incarnated into bodies here on Earth (maybe, for all we know as other creatures on other planets ? - who knows, I guess it is a possibilty).

But at the end, all will be one again..........

Halcyon said:

You already know what exactly?

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We already know that God the Father is not the same individual as YHWH.

To be honest, i'm still pretty confused as to what you believe exactly .

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Still?

But i thought you accepted the idea of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as being members of the godhead?

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We do, but we believe them to be physically distinct from one another. We absolutely do not accept the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds as an accurate description of their nature or relationship.

michel said:

I am looking forward to seeing Kathryn's answer, but, in the mean time, do you believe in "one almighty God" ? no definitions as in God YHWH, or Allah..........just one almighty God ?

BTW, I think you'll find that the comment Kathrym made was particular to the trinitarian aspect, and that LDS do believe in the Godhead, which to them is different (no doubt I shall soon be put right if I am wrong) ,

but maybe this goes to explain the difference:- (and Kathryn, if this is a nonsence site, do tell me)
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/restoring/chap03.html

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I'm supposed to be working on a lesson I have to teach in church tomorrow, but I am just so addicted to RF that I'm having trouble focusing on more pressing matters. I just thought I'd mention that www.fairlds.org is an excellent resource for accurate information on our beliefs. Thanks for your post, Michel.

Kathryn

michel said:

You know I believe in reincarnation; perhaps, to put it in 'your language', I believe that the sum parts of God, all the souls, and nature are a constant; sometimes the souls are incarnated into bodies here on Earth (maybe, for all we know as other creatures on other planets ? - who knows, I guess it is a possibilty).

But at the end, all will be one again..........

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My language, what you mean gibberish? I think you need to brush up on your gibberish Mich, that was far too coherant .

Maybe all is one already? Maybe there is no real distinction between this and that, between myself, yourself and anything else. All is the One and the One is the Source of all things - maybe...

Katzpur said:

We do, but we believe them to be physically distinct from one another. We absolutely do not accept the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds as an accurate description of their nature or relationship.

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Ok, so... let me think (it takes some effort)... you believe in one God in three forms, right? Father, Son, Holy Spirit - three entities but they are, in total, one God - correct?

Isn't this a form of trinity?

Halcyon said:

Ok, so... let me think (it takes some effort)... you believe in one God in three forms, right? Father, Son, Holy Spirit - three entities but they are, in total, one God - correct?

Isn't this a form of trinity?

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Language sure does get in the way of understanding sometimes, doesn't it?

Okay, here's the best definition/description I can come up with. We'll start with the "official" one:

"We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."

To clarify (I hope): We believe that they are three distinct entities. We believe that both the Father and the Son have physical bodies (glorified, immortal, and perfect in every respect) of flesh and bone. We believe the Holy Ghost to be a personage of spirit only.

We see their "oneness" or "unity" to be of a spiritual nature. By that, I mean that they are "one" in will and purpose, and in mind and heart. They exist in total, perfect, complete harmony with one another. There is no contention between them, no power-struggles, no one-upmanship. Each of them wants for us exactly what the others want for us. (I guess I'm trying to explain a unity so absolute that we have a hard time imagining it).

All three of them have the same divine qualities, i.e. love, mercy, compassion, knowledge, power, etc. And finally, they share a single title: God. If you want to call this "a form of trinity," be my guest. Just be aware that it is NOT the same "form of trinity" that mainstream Christianity subscribes to. We don't see God as three beings who comprise a single invisible essence. To us, that is false doctrine.

Does this help at all?

Katzpur said:

Language sure does get in the way of understanding sometimes, doesn't it?

Okay, here's the best definition/description I can come up with. We'll start with the "official" one:

"We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."

To clarify (I hope): We believe that they are three distinct entities. We believe that both the Father and the Son have physical bodies (glorified, immortal, and perfect in every respect) of flesh and bone. We believe the Holy Ghost to be a personage of spirit only.

We see their "oneness" or "unity" to be of a spiritual nature. By that, I mean that they are "one" in will and purpose, and in mind and heart. They exist in total, perfect, complete harmony with one another. There is no contention between them, no power-struggles, no one-upmanship. Each of them wants for us exactly what the others want for us. (I guess I'm trying to explain a unity so absolute that we have a hard time imagining it).

All three of them have the same divine qualities, i.e. love, mercy, compassion, knowledge, power, etc. And finally, they share a single title: God. If you want to call this "a form of trinity," be my guest. Just be aware that it is NOT the same "form of trinity" that mainstream Christianity subscribes to. We don't see God as three beings who comprise a single invisible essence. To us, that is false doctrine.

Does this help at all?

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Ah ha... hmm:icon_twis mmm...

Ok, one last(ish) question. Do they think as one? You said they are one in mind and heart.

Halcyon said:

Ah ha... hmm:icon_twis mmm...

Ok, one last(ish) question. Do they think as one? You said they are one in mind and heart.

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Well, they each have their own brain, but yes, they think "as one."

Katzpur said:

Well, they each have their own brain, but yes, they think "as one."

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Ok, i think i'm marginally closer to understanding. Thanks katz.

Halcyon said:

Ok, i think i'm marginally closer to understanding. Thanks katz.

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You're most welcome. I might just add that it's a little bit the same thing as a jury "thinking as one," only far more absolute. When two or more people are in consensus on something, they are often said to be thinking as one.

Katzpur said:

You're most welcome. I might just add that it's a little bit the same thing as a jury "thinking as one," only far more absolute. When two or more people are in consensus on something, they are often said to be thinking as one.

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Argh, now look what you've gone and done, made me head all fuzzy again :rainbow1:

Only joking. Or am i? I'm not sure anymore - where am i again?

The doctrine of the Trinity is not as far-fetched as some believe. You have God, The Father, God The Son and God The HolySpirit, three separate spiritual beings that are one in that they all share the same attributes to deity and divinesss (omnipresence, omnipotent, omniscience, loving, merciful and graceful). If you read Phillipians 2, as part of Jesus's incarnation, He voluntarily emptied Himself of certain attributes to dwell with in the flesh during his existence on earth. :bounce

blueman said:

The doctrine of the Trinity is not as far-fetched as some believe. You have God, The Father, God The Son and God The HolySpirit, three separate spiritual beings that are one in that they all share the same attributes to deity and divinesss (omnipresence, omnipotent, omniscience, loving, merciful and graceful). If you read Phillipians 2, as part of Jesus's incarnation, He voluntarily emptied Himself of certain attributes to dwell with in the flesh during his existence on earth. :bounce

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I can go along with all that. I just can't go along with the idea that they are all part of a single substance.

Katzpur said:

I can go along with all that. I just can't go along with the idea that they are all part of a single substance.

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Hi Katzpur. Good to hear from you. Happy New Year to you!:bounce

blueman said:

Hi Katzpur. Good to hear from you. Happy New Year to you!:bounce

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You, too, Blue!