Does the Qur'an Deny the Crucifixion of Jesus?

loverOfTruth · Nov 3, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
This is what I had said partially:

"In another Word, God does not Test, if His guidance is not there. For He is Just.
A Just Creator. The World is a Place of Test. If the Book is not there, there is no Test."

All the answers is in this verse, we need to read it carefully, and think on each word and part of it:

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute 5:48

The statement in above verse: "But to Test you in what He has given you"

What "He has given you?"
The Answer is in the same verse:" He has given scriptures, and to each one (Each People in an Age) He priscribed Laws".

So, He gave the Scriptures and Laws, and God Test us by what He has given us:

"judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires"

Meaning, that Allah gave the Book as a guidance, so people may follow what God asked them to do, but not what their own selfish desires tells them. God Judges between us, by what He has given us.

As to raping, that is a form of Zina (Adaultery). Clearly, one of them Law of God, is not to do Adaultry. So, He prescribed that Law.
If a person follows the Law of God, He passes the Test. If He follows His own selfish desire, He fails the Test:

From the same verse:

"[Allah] judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires"

Thus, from the above verse, it is clear that, the Book of God is what people are tested by, and judged by. If Bible was corrupted, then how could God Test and judge between them if they follow what Allah has revealed or their vain desires?

Moreover, the Quran has said:

68. Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 5)

Now, the same points from the Bible:

"Until the time that his word came to pass, The word of the Lord tested him." PSALM 105:19

The above verse is clear. The Word of God must come, so, we are tested by His word.

"Then the Lord said to Moses, ...And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not." EXODUS 16:4

How strange, when both Quran and Bible say the same things in principles, people argue, these Books are not from the same God, or one of them is corrupted, and the other one is from Evil. Are not these arguments from the fact that people are biased?

Those were just 2 examples I gave. Please give scripture for all of your answers to my questions and I'll respond with my explanations as to what is wrong with your interpretation.

Thanks.

loverOfTruth · Nov 3, 2012

Rational_Mind said:
I would caution you against making the same mistake as InvestigateTruth by deducing fallacious arguments. If he does not answer the question we cannot conclude that he is wrong. We can say his position is put into question. We should avoid fallacies whenever possible. So far InvestigateTruth has engaged in fallacies to a degree I have only seen anti-Islam anti-Religion haters, etc. do such in pure ignorance. We should be careful to avoid such things and not make the same mistakes. We don't need to prove anything if we know we have done our part fairy.

That nature of his argument is in the quote above. You will note he will continually say that no Hadith or Quran says that Bible is corrupted. Even IF (a BIG IF) we take this as true. He is still not proving anything. Do you understand? Lets not waste time through red herrings he sends us off on. Just show him that the thrust of his entire argument is fallacious so he needs to head back to the drawing board.

Using this fallacy he says either Bible is next to perfect or entirely corrupted. Again, why should we even accept that there can only be two extremes. He plays on the latter extreme to suggest that God would not leave people astray. How he got to the latter extreme was the fallacious on both counts (the first fallacy and this one).

Using this fallacy he posts Quranic verses which I showed do not suggest what he is trying to make out of them. The BIG IF is broken here. So now his start is completely fallacious and we find fallacies in every step forward he takes.

He then employs this by assuming that I believe the Bible was fully corrupted (the extreme end) 600 years before the Holy Prophet (saw).

My quotes were taken from: Fallacies

Your questions were great, and I appreciate the position you brought forth. One such is how his idea of each Prophet bringing a new law which was brought up with your question of Hadrat Solomon (as). Which brings a lot of verses to come against him, it seems he is unaware of them.

Hopefully InvestigateTruth will learn something from this.

Thanks for your advice. But the reason I said that it will prove him wrong is because it will demonstrate that #1 not every single specific is mentioned in the scripture and #2 every single messenger is sent after a while (600 or 1000 years) according to God's plan and doesn't mean that God left people without guidance - or even if it does, it happened before the same way.

InvestigateTruth · Nov 3, 2012

loverOfTruth said:
Thanks for your advice. But the reason I said that it will prove him wrong is because it will demonstrate that #1 not every single specific is mentioned in the scripture .

Dear LoverofTruth,

Firstly this is what I had said in my post #135:

"In Principle He does give every details which can be applicable to similar situations."

I hope it is clear for you what I meant.
I did not say, every single word is in it, but, all the principles required to understand Islamic teachings are in Quran. I had asked you to support your explaination with Quran, or at least with Hadithes from the Prophet.

Moreover, I am not making this up that Quran has all the details, but it is Allah who said that in Quran:

"Say: Should I seek a judge other than Allah, when He is the One Who has revealed this Book (The Qur'an) with full details? Those whom We gave the Book, before you, know very well that it is revealed to you from your Lord with the Truth; therefore, you should not be of those who have doubts." Quran 6:113

"Moreover, He said, We gave Moses the Book to complete Our favor on those who would do good to others; it contained details of all things, and was a guide and a mercy, so that they should believe in the ultimate meeting with their Lord." Quran 6:153

"For We have certainly brought them a Book which provides clear details based on knowledge and which is a guidance and blessing for the true believers." Quran 7:51

"We inscribed for him upon tablets all kind of instructions and details of every thing, concerning all branches of life, and said: "Observe these with firmness and enjoin your people to follow them according to the best of their abilities. Soon I shall show you the homes of the transgressors" Quran 7:144

"Alif L'am R'a. This Book, whose verses are perfected and issued in detail by the One Who is All-Wise, All-Aware" Quran 11:1

Looks like Quran is saying what I said. What do you think Dear LoverOfTruth?

How strange the belief of some Moslems is. On one hand, they are proud their religion is perfect and complete, and there is nothing more needed to be revealed from God. On another hand, when it comes to discussion, they say, not all details are there. Can you help me understand? How very strange.

and #2 every single messenger is sent after a while (600 or 1000 years) according to God's plan and doesn't mean that God left people without guidance - or even if it does, it happened before the same way

And I had replied to that as well.

I agree every single Messenger was sent after a while. That does not mean there was not guidance when there was no Messenger on earth for 600 years, because the BOOK of God was there among people for guidance, thus disproving the claim that Bible was corrupted.

InvestigateTruth · Nov 3, 2012

loverOfTruth said:
Those were just 2 examples I gave. Please give scripture for all of your answers to my questions and I'll respond with my explanations as to what is wrong with your interpretation.

Thanks.

As I said, most of your other questions are not related to our discussion, and my time is limited. Moreover, I had covered many of those in other threads, please refer to them.

As far as it is related to our discussion, I believe I supported my exlanation with the verses of Quran and Bible.

If you are going to explain why you think my interpretation is wrong, you need to support your view with Quran, Bible and Hadithes, otherwise it would be only your personal view.

InvestigateTruth · Nov 3, 2012

Rational_Mind said:
So far you have also been ignorant enough to think there is only one bible. Moreover you randomly choose 4 books only to make mainstream Christians happy about your beliefs.

I had replied to that. have you not read my reply?

If you are truthful then show support from the Quran.

Have I not shown so many proofs from Quran that Quran confirms it is from God?

So far you have only tried to pervert the meaning of verses by pulling them out of context to try suggest a meaning that contradicts with clear meaning of the Holy Quran.

It is easy to say others have perverted the meaning of verses. But my points hold while you have not shown otherwise.

I have careful addressed all your questions multiple times. Only to have you avoid my questions and you continue to ask ignorant questions.

You tried answering my questions, thank you. But your replys raised more questions, and you were not able to address them any farther Thus you did not make your point.

Peace

TashaN · Nov 3, 2012

nazz said:
Let me make one thing perfectly clear. It is not my intent to say the Qur'an CANNOT be interpreted as saying Jesus was never crucified. Certainly it CAN be and historically that is how it has usually been interpreted by Muslims. But my point is that it doesn't HAVE to be interpreted in that way. So why is there a need to deliberately interpret it in a way that contradicts the Bible? Considering the fact that the Qur'an affirms the truth of the previously revealed Scriptures does it not make sense to look for ways to harmonize the Qur'an with those previous revelations? If a Muslim were to believe that Jesus died on the Cross but was subsequently raised up by God I don't see any problem with that. It doesn't go against any of the principles of the Islamic faith that I can see.

Last time i checked, the Bible wasn't a previous revelation. Some parts of the bible is. Muslims believe that a revelation supposed to be revealed to Messengers of God, not to those who came after Jesus claiming of being inspired by God like Paul and those who wrote the Bible.

InvestigateTruth · Nov 3, 2012

TashaN said:
Last time i checked, the Bible wasn't a previous revelation. Some parts of the bible is. Muslims believe that a revelation supposed to be revealed to Messengers of God, not to those who came after Jesus claiming of being inspired by God like Paul and those who wrote the Bible.

Do Moslems believe that there was never a legitimate Bible was written for Christians and Jews, or do they believe, there was, but was changed later?

TashaN · Nov 3, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
Do Moslems believe that there was never a legitimate Bible was written for Christians and Jews, or do they believe, there was, but was changed later?

In the Quran, Torah and Injeel were mentioned but not the Bible which was composed later by people claiming to be inspired by God.

InvestigateTruth · Nov 3, 2012

TashaN said:
In the Quran, Torah and Injeel were mentioned but not the Bible which was composed later by people claiming to be inspired by God.

Ok, so do the Moslems believe There was a legitimate Injeel and Torah was ever written as a Book for Christians and Jews?

Rational_Mind · Nov 3, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
I had replied to that. have you not read my reply?

Have I not shown so many proofs from Quran that Quran confirms it is from God?

It is easy to say others have perverted the meaning of verses. But my points hold while you have not shown otherwise.

You tried answering my questions, thank you. But your replys raised more questions, and you were not able to address them any farther Thus you did not make your point.

Peace

Wow. I am saving these posts so next time I need to teach somebody about what fallacies are it will serve as an excellent example. You are good with throwing red herrings, so good I wonder if you got professional training trying to be a diplomat.

If you are a young child then I will out of mercy clarify one last time:

1. You replied saying disciples were inspired by God and hence 4 Gospels were picked.

Of the many gospels written in antiquity, only four gospels came to be accepted as part of the New Testament, or canonical. An insistence upon there being a canon of four gospels, and no others, was a central theme of Irenaeus of Lyons, c. 185. In his central work, Adversus Haereses Irenaeus denounced various early Christian groups that used only one gospel, such as Marcionism which used only Marcion's version of Luke, or the Ebionites which seem to have used an Aramaic version of Matthew as well as groups that embraced the texts of newer writings, such as the Valentinians (A.H. 1.11). Irenaeus declared that the four he espoused were the four "Pillars of the Church": "it is not possible that there can be either more or fewer than four" he stated, presenting as logic the analogy of the four corners of the earth and the four winds (3.11.8). His image, taken from Ezekiel 1, or Revelation 4:6–10, of God's throne borne by four creatures with four faces—"the four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and the four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle"—equivalent to the "four-formed" gospel, is the origin of the conventional symbols of the Evangelists: lion, bull, eagle, man. Irenaeus was ultimately successful in declaring that the four gospels collectively, and exclusively these four, contained the truth. He also supported reading each gospel in light of the others.
Gospel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you ever opened a book you would know that my very first questions ended your game. Four corners of the Earth therefore four Gospels, we don't even know why they were picked. Now I guess they must somehow be inspired by God? Maybe the people who went in to make the addition "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God." were (NAUZUBILLAH) inspired by God? You should discuss things with confidence by just grabbing Bahai teachings, maybe once in awhile you should check whether it is harmonious with established historical facts.

2. Your Quranic verses were replied to one by one. Reply back one by one using the Holy Quran or head home.

3. Invalid questions are invalid questions. If you disagree then tell me whether the earth has 3 corners or 4 corners. I need an answer of either 3 or 4.

InvestigateTruth · Nov 3, 2012

Rational_Mind said:
Wow. I am saving these posts so next time I need to teach somebody about what fallacies are it will serve as an excellent example. You are good with throwing red herrings, so good I wonder if you got professional training trying to be a diplomat.

Is that a complement?

1. You replied saying disciples were inspired by God and hence 4 Gospels were picked.

If you ever opened a book you would know that my very first questions ended your game. Four corners of the Earth therefore four Gospels, we don't even know why they were picked. Now I guess they must somehow be inspired by God? Maybe the people who went in to make the addition "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God." were (NAUZUBILLAH) inspired by God? You should discuss things with confidence by just grabbing Bahai teachings, maybe once in awhile you should check whether it is harmonious with established historical facts.

No, I have shown you the evidence that the Disciples of Christ were inspired, and firm believers. They narrated the Bible, as they had seen dreams and visions.
Later on, in whatever way the Four Bibles were selected, would be also through God's inspiration. Is this not Possible?

How do you know even Quran was revealed to Muhammad from God indeed? Is it not other than believing that there is an All-powerful God who gives His guidance by revealing a Book? Was not God capable of providing guidance to humanity?
Thus, as you believed that God is Powerful to make His revelation through Quran, likewise you must believe that God was Powerful to make His revelation through Injeel and Torah.
The details of How God ensured His Book to be available uncorrupted, may not be available or may require too many Historical Facts that may not be available. Thus I am not discussing the details of it. I am discussing at a higher level.

InvestigateTruth · Nov 3, 2012

RationalMind Wrote:

2. Your Quranic verses were replied to one by one. Reply back one by one using the Holy Quran or head home.

And I replied back, with post #127. You did not reply to that.

Rational_Mind · Nov 3, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
Is that a complement?

No, I have shown you the evidence that the Disciples of Christ were inspired, and firm believers. They narrated the Bible, as they had seen dreams and visions.
Later on, in whatever way the Four Bibles were selected, would be also through God's inspiration. Is this not Possible?

How do you know even Quran was revealed to Muhammad from God indeed? Is it not other than believing that there is an All-powerful God who gives His guidance by revealing a Book? Was not God capable of providing guidance to humanity?
Thus, as you believed that God is Powerful to make His revelation through Quran, likewise you must believe that God was Powerful to make His revelation through Injeel and Torah.
The details of How God ensured His Book to be available uncorrupted, may not be available or may require too many Historical Facts that may not be available. Thus I am not discussing the details of it. I am discussing at a higher level.

1. Did you just say they were the only ones inspired. You out do yourself every time. Please don't get all excited and reply back to everything I post. Do your research first. I spend time to check my facts. I showed you references. You keep mixing up cocktails in your mind and tossing them out. Reasonable people don't take your word for it. I KNOW HOW THE FOUR BIBLES WERE PICKED, YOU DON'T. If God inspired these four to be picked WHY WAS IT AT THE HANDS OF A PERSON WHO denounced Ebionites. I intentionally changed the font to read when it mentioned Ebionites in my prior quote speaking of how the four Gospels were picked. You did not bother to even look up who they are. I am highly disappointed in your absolute lack of scholarship.

2. O wow. I know Allah (swt) provides historical facts to appear to prove truthfulness. As they have done for proving the truth of the Quran. And today people ironically laughed when they were told Quran says Jesus (as) died a natural death. Now facts laugh at those who believed a man went bodily to heaven and these people of these beliefs thought dying a natural death is unbelieveable.

There are also facts Allah (swt) preserved to show you the Bible has been tampered. How the heck are you saying maybe other facts are hidden. This is another fallacious argument. You are clearly denying facts for your own desires not the truth Allah (swt) has presented to you in many forms.

I raise your own fallacious argument back to you "The details of How God ensured His Book that was for temporary nature to be become corrupted, may not be available or may require too many Historical Facts that may not be available."

You didn't address any of the things I said here. Especially in red.

Rational_Mind · Nov 3, 2012

I said the following(1):

Rational_Mind said:
2. Your Quranic verses were replied to one by one. Reply back one by one using the Holy Quran or head home.

You responded to (1) with (2):

InvestigateTruth said:
RationalMind Wrote:

And I replied back, with post #127. You did not reply to that.

I pulled up post #127

InvestigateTruth said:
I agree, they were not as level of Jesus, but they were firm believers. Still, God did reveal to them in their dreams. That is how the Bible is written.
I did not say, that Bible is a direct revelation from God. But I said it is inspired by God.
God has the power to inspire them to ensure there is guidance for humanity untill the next Messenger, Muhammad came in the Next Age. Bible is legitimate. There is no fundamental error in it.

Now I realized you sent me off after a red herring. Now I turn back around and ask you how you can possibly continue to make the same mistakes. Your post #127 has nothing to do with the quote (1). Where is a reply to any Quranic verse, moreover where did you even use a Quranic verse to reply.

I am under the impression you don't read my posts. You just skim through them and pose anything that comes to your mind with processing. They to raise allegations that I am not responding to your questions.

I just realized you threw me in another circle. Game began with you saying Quran says Bible is uncorrupted and free of alterations. So produce a verse that is not pulled out of context like your last ones. Or prove to me they are in context by replying to my replies to the verses you posted.

InvestigateTruth · Nov 4, 2012

Rational_Mind said:
1. Did you just say they were the only ones inspired. You out do yourself every time. Please don't get all excited and reply back to everything I post. Do your research first. I spend time to check my facts. I showed you references. You keep mixing up cocktails in your mind and tossing them out. Reasonable people don't take your word for it. I KNOW HOW THE FOUR BIBLES WERE PICKED, YOU DON'T. If God inspired these four to be picked WHY WAS IT AT THE HANDS OF A PERSON WHO denounced Ebionites. I intentionally changed the font to read when it mentioned Ebionites in my prior quote speaking of how the four Gospels were picked. You did not bother to even look up who they are. I am highly disappointed in your absolute lack of scholarship.

2. O wow. I know Allah (swt) provides historical facts to appear to prove truthfulness. As they have done for proving the truth of the Quran. And today people ironically laughed when they were told Quran says Jesus (as) died a natural death. Now facts laugh at those who believed a man went bodily to heaven and these people of these beliefs thought dying a natural death is unbelieveable.

There are also facts Allah (swt) preserved to show you the Bible has been tampered. How the heck are you saying maybe other facts are hidden. This is another fallacious argument. You are clearly denying facts for your own desires not the truth Allah (swt) has presented to you in many forms.

I raise your own fallacious argument back to you "The details of How God ensured His Book that was for temporary nature to be become corrupted, may not be available or may require too many Historical Facts that may not be available."

Which one the following statements you do not agree with:

1. Quran contains verses that confirms that God had revealed Torah and Injil to guide people.
2. Quran does not contain any verse that the actual Texts of Torah and Injil were altered. Not even there is any authentic Hadith.
3. The Idea that the Torah and Injil are corrupted and altered are additions by Moselm religious leaders.
4. Quran claimes that in principle it has all the details. Thus if indeed Injil or Torah were corrupted, at least with 1-2 verses would have said.
5. The Christian Scholars have shown Bible is not corrupted. But come of them agree there are very few insignificant minor inaccuracies are in it. But not all of them agree with that, as it is arguable.
6. Even if there is some minor inaccuracies in Torah, that does not mean it is corrupted for what is imortant is the essencial teachings.
7. Any man-made religious idea is most likely False. Thus if Quran and the Prophet did not say Injil and Torah got corrupted, then such an idea is most likly false.

InvestigateTruth · Nov 4, 2012

Rational_Mind said:
I said the following(1):

You responded to (1) with (2):

I pulled up post #127

Now I realized you sent me off after a red herring. Now I turn back around and ask you how you can possibly continue to make the same mistakes. Your post #127 has nothing to do with the quote (1). Where is a reply to any Quranic verse, moreover where did you even use a Quranic verse to reply.

I am under the impression you don't read my posts. You just skim through them and pose anything that comes to your mind with processing. They to raise allegations that I am not responding to your questions.

I just realized you threw me in another circle. Game began with you saying Quran says Bible is uncorrupted and free of alterations. So produce a verse that is not pulled out of context like your last ones. Or prove to me they are in context by replying to my replies to the verses you posted.

No, if you read from Post #127, you see, that was the continuation of the dicussion regarding verses of Quran regarding the disciples of Christ who were inspired by God.
I showed you the verse of Quran, then you showed a verse to point out they were not firm believers. Then I explained to you, they became eventually firm believers, and the fact they were Martyred proves they were firm believers, and were inspired by God.

Which verse of Quran you quoted, that I did not reply yet? Please let me know the post# or verse number. Maybe I missed it.

Rational_Mind · Nov 4, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
Which one the following statements you do not agree with:

1. Quran contains verses that confirms that God had revealed Torah and Injil to guide people.
2. Quran does not contain any verse that the actual Texts of Torah and Injil were altered. Not even there is any authentic Hadith.
3. The Idea that the Torah and Injil are corrupted and altered are additions by Moselm religious leaders.
4. Quran claimes that in principle it has all the details. Thus if indeed Injil or Torah were corrupted, at least with 1-2 verses would have said.
5. The Christian Scholars have shown Bible is not corrupted. But come of them agree there are very few insignificant minor inaccuracies are in it. But not all of them agree with that, as it is arguable.
6. Even if there is some minor inaccuracies in Torah, that does not mean it is corrupted for what is imortant is the essencial teachings.
7. Any man-made religious idea is most likely False. Thus if Quran and the Prophet did not say Injil and Torah got corrupted, then such an idea is most likly false.

1. I showed you that the verses you posted are to guide them to the Quran.
2. How many times do I have to explain to you that these are faulty arguments. Even if the Quran has not said the Torah and Bible are corrupted you are still not presenting a valid argument. A valid argument is to produce a verse that says clearly that they are free of error. You attempted to justify verses but I replied to each one with their context and showed you that they were nothing like you made them seem.
3. No they aren't. If you stop perverting verses using Bahai teachings you will be able to see it clearly mentioned in the Holy Quran.
4. There are verses you completely dismissed with no basis on the Quran but using Bahai teachings. Go back and check yourself.
5. I am sure these Scholars are the most unbiased people in the world.
6. If it doesn't matter why are you spending so much time. It does matter because it proves Bahai teachings false. And proves that their laws do not apply for all time. This again proves Bahai teachings wrong as Quran never was lost in any form.
7. Probability doesn't prove anything. Moreover you have yet to use Quran as support so I can raise this faulty argument against you telling you that this is a man-made religious idea.

Rational_Mind · Nov 4, 2012

InvestigateTruth said:
No, if you read from Post #127, you see, that was the continuation of the dicussion regarding verses of Quran regarding the disciples of Christ who were inspired by God.
I showed you the verse of Quran, then you showed a verse to point out they were not firm believers. Then I explained to you, they became eventually firm believers, and the fact they were Martyred proves they were firm believers, and were inspired by God.

Which verse of Quran you quoted, that I did not reply yet? Please let me know the post# or verse number. Maybe I missed it.

Post #120.

Rational_Mind · Nov 4, 2012

Rational_Mind said:
Does God give such pure revelation for entire teachings to people who are such weak believers? Was Jesus (as) himself incapable (nauzubillah). The Sahabi of the Holy Prophet (saw) where much stronger and the Holy Quran has made this distinction multiple times by speaking about followers of Moses (as) who would easily be swayed.

Now lets see if inspired could only mean revelation. Because clearly here it would be foolish to reveal to less capable people when a Prophet of God is alive. As the disciples were alive along with Jesus (as) so why revelation only after the death of Jesus (as). It does not make sense.

The same word "inspire" is used here. Clearly God inspires all our actions. He is control of the universe and everything beyond our imagination.

Hence Allah(swt) inspired the Disciples to believe in Jesus (as) while he was alive.

I am not saying revelation never came upon the most righteous Saints. All I am saying is that why would Allah (swt) possibly reveal an entire teaching directly to disciples rather than a Prophet of God.

InvestigateTruth please read this post again. You did not address it completely.

InvestigateTruth · Nov 4, 2012

Rational_Mind said:
1. I showed you that the verses you posted are to guide them to the Quran.

Regardless of what the purpose of those verses are, the fact is Quran talks about Torah and Injil as two Books that they were guidance. So, the point 1 is made. Quran does say that the Two Books were given from Allah.

2. How many times do I have to explain to you that these are faulty arguments. Even if the Quran has not said the Torah and Bible are corrupted you are still not presenting a valid argument. A valid argument is to produce a verse that says clearly that they are free of error. You attempted to justify verses but I replied to each one with their context and showed you that they were nothing like you made them seem.

Either Quran said or did not say. I had already explained that, the meaning of those verses is Misinterpretation and alteration in the meaning of Bible. I demand you a reply to my post, when i covered the verses of Quran. I give you th post number if you cannot find it.

3. No they aren't. If you stop perverting verses using Bahai teachings you will be able to see it clearly mentioned in the Holy Quran.

See above

4. There are verses you completely dismissed with no basis on the Quran but using Bahai teachings. Go back and check yourself.

How is that a reply to my point 4?

5. I am sure these Scholars are the most unbiased people in the world.

And I am not sure if Some Moslem Leaders who claim Bible is corrupted are not Biased.

6. If it doesn't matter why are you spending so much time. It does matter because it proves Bahai teachings false. And proves that their laws do not apply for all time. This again proves Bahai teachings wrong as Quran never was lost in any form.

How is that a reply to my point 6?

7. Probability doesn't prove anything. Moreover you have yet to use Quran as support so I can raise this faulty argument against you telling you that this is a man-made religious idea.

If something is not mentioned in Quran, and later added by Men,then it is man-made.
If you claim the Quran says, Injil and torah are corrpted, then show the verse. Otherwise that means this is a man-made idea.

Does the Qur'an Deny the Crucifixion of Jesus?

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