Katzpur said:
I don't believe this point is avoided in the Bible. It may not be discussed in great depth, but it certainly is alluded to.
1 Corinthians 15:40-42 states, "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead."
In this passage, the apostle Paul was making a direct reference to a comparison of the body before and after resurection. Apparently there were some in Corinth, who were asking a lot of questions concerning the nature of our mortal bodies in the afterlife, and thinking it foolish to believe in such because they couldn't understand how there coruptable bodies could be made incorruptable. I do not, when reading the passage in context, see a direct reference to any other form of salvation, but rather Paul's attempt to explain that they should not be foolish when contemplating the thing that God is capable of. Look at the whole passage, starting in verse 32 and reading on. What profit is it to Paul if he be threatened with beasts for preaching the gospel, whne there is no afterlife? In other words, he is saying, do you think that I would be putting my life at risk if I did not believe that God would reward me for my faithfulness?
KAtzpur said:
It strikes me as a little bit amusing that you would point out that you don't believe the passage from Alma is from God, although you seem to think it is pretty much in agreement with God's word. That sounds like a kind of a thin line to me.
Well, if I can point you towards a passage in what you believe to be the inspired word, that condradict the rest of your inspired word, then maybe you can see that it is full of inaccuracies and not the inspired word of God.
Katzpur said:
What exactly do you understand the phrase, "the gates of Hell" to mean? I think your interpretation of this passage is causing some misunderstanding.
The gates of hell are the most powerful thing that there is next to the power of God. God's power is number one and next to that is the power of Satan, but even the power of Satan will not be able to prevail against the establishment of the church. In other words, what God has established can not be undermind by the most powerful thing in the universe that may wish to undermind it, let alone the corruption of man.
Katzpur said:
On the contrary, we firmly believe that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of our Church -- His Church. The Church is, after all, named after Him. But, no structure can remain standing if its foundation falls. A Church built on a foundation of prophets and apostles will crumble if the foundation crumbles.
Is that the foundation that Peter said? He said, "that thou are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" and Jesus that upon that confession (Jesus, the Son of God) would the church be built. Jesus is the foundation. His teaching, doctrine, death, burial and resurrection. Are you saying that the foundation of Jesus can crumble? Certainly a church built by a man will crumble. Prophets and Apostles are merely men, whether they exist in our modern world or not. Jesus teachings can never be shaken, and it is Jesus that is the foundation.
Katzpur said:
Why then did Jesus bother to appoint prophets if He was not going to continue to speak through them?
Jesus didn't appoint prophets. He appointed apostles and he had disciples. Do you know the difference?
A Prophet was someone in the Old Testament who was chosen by God the Father to speak on behalf of Him to the children of Israel. They were not witnesses of Christ, and had never seen him. John the Baptist was a prophet until he witness Christ.
An Apostle was a witness unto Christ and chosen by him to be a direct student of Him and his teaching. Paul, even though not one of the original twelve, was an apostle because Jesus appeared to him directly on the raod to Demascus. Because he became a witness of Christ and chosen by Him, he is classified as an apostle.
A disciple is someone who is a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ because I try sincerely to follow His gospel. The same can be said for anyone who does the same.
All Apostles are Disciples, but not all Disciples are Apostles.
Katzpur said:
I believe you're wrong here. 1 Corinthians 4:20 states: "For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power." The Bible is vital to our understanding, but it provides no power itself. Power is given only by God, by the laying on of hands.
How can I be wrong when all I did was quote a scripture?
The word of God is all that we need and does give power though. You need to look at 1 Cor 4:20 in context.
[
15] For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you
through the gospel.
[
16] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
[
17] For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
[
18] Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
[
19] But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
[
20] For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
He was talking about how that the proof is in the pudding, so to speak, with whether or not he would be able to make it out to see them, even though at this time he was in prison. It doesn't have anything to do with the power of God's word, but with the power of the words of men.
2 Timothy 3:
[
15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[
16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[
17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Well, if the Word is all we need to be perfected of God, then why would we still need Apostles and Prophets? We don't. The Apostles and Prophets were given by God to man, to impart the knowledge of God's will to man, because it had not been written down yet. Now that we have God's Holy and Written Word, we don't need any additional instruction according to Paul.
Hebrews 4:
[
12] For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Word of God seems pretty powerful to me.
Hebrews 3:
[
1] Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
We don't need a High Priest, Apostle, Prophet or anything else now that Christ has interceded once and for all for us.
Also, on another note. The laying on of hands in the New Testament was used to impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. A supernatural indwelling that was given to those who would teach and preach the, as of yet, unwritten word of God. Thsoe things have now passed according to Paul's letter to the Corinthians, and the Holy Spirit dwells within us now so far as we read and study God's word today.
The Holy Bible, that is.
Katzpur said:
Thank you for your posts, EEWRED. I'm enjoying this discussion very much.
Ditto Kiddo.