• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Josephus says Sarah was Abraham's niece, not 1/2 sister

Shermana

Heretic
Why does Josephus say more than once that Sarah was Abraham's niece? (Which is 100% fine in Jewish religion and doesn't violate future Torah)
Nahor and Haran: of these Haran left a son, Lot; as also Sarai and Milcha his daughters; and died among the Chaldeans, in a city of the Chaldeans, called Ur; and his monument is shown to this day. These married their nieces. Nabor married Milcha, and Abram married Sarai.
Ant 1:5

Does this clash with what the Bible says? What the Midrashim says?

Did Abraham simply lie a second time when he told Pharoah she was his sister?
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
Timeline wise, Josephus is approximately around the time of Jesus right? So significantly post-Abraham? Or am I getting my writers confused.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Why does Josephus say more than once that Sarah was Abraham's niece? (Which is 100% fine in Jewish religion and doesn't violate future Torah)
Ant 1:5

Does this clash with what the Bible says? What the Midrashim says?

Did Abraham simply lie a second time when he told Pharoah she was his sister?


why is it assumed the bible is wrong and not Josephus?

Sarai was not Lots daughter. She was Abrahams 1/2 sister according to Genesis 20:12 And, besides, she is truly my sister, the daughter of my father (Terah), only not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife

From the daughters of Lot came the tribes of the Moabites and Ammonites which is why God told the Israelites they were not to take any of the land from Moab or Ammon because he had given that land to the sons of Lot (Deut 2:9, 19)

So do Josephus and the jewish authorities believe that Sarah is not an Israelite but rather an Ammonites or Moabite? Is that what they think?
 

Shermana

Heretic
Well Pegg, obviously Josephus was a well-educated priest and scribe, the idea that he just invented this wholesale doesn't really add up. Why would he lie about this? To not look bad to the Romans? They had the same manuscripts to see for themselves.

Also, read more carefully, Lot is Sarai's BROTHER in this case, the daughter of Haran.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Well Pegg, obviously Josephus was a well-educated priest and scribe, the idea that he just invented this wholesale doesn't really add up. Why would he lie about this? To not look bad to the Romans? They had the same manuscripts to see for themselves.

Also, read more carefully, Lot is Sarai's BROTHER in this case, the daughter of Haran.


I can see what the quote says... but its not what the bible says. And this is why I dont put a lot of stock in the religious teachers of the 1st century. Where were they getting these ideas from? It obviously wasnt the hebrew scriptures which means they had stopped using the hebrew scriptures as the basis for their teachings. This was the issue Jesus had with them too...they put the tradition of men in place of the word of God.

Can i ask if that is the only quote from your source which says Sarai is Lots daughter?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Why does Josephus say more than once that Sarah was Abraham's niece? (Which is 100% fine in Jewish religion and doesn't violate future Torah)
Ant 1:5

Does this clash with what the Bible says? What the Midrashim says?

Did Abraham simply lie a second time when he told Pharoah she was his sister?

The word Abraham uses to describe Sarah is achot, which does literally mean sister, however it was frequently used idiomatically in ancient Hebrew, from the Biblical era well through the Second Temple era, quite possibly into Rabbinic times, to mean "kinswoman," a woman of one's own clan. The word ach (brother) and even sometimes fir other close family members were sometimes used this way, also. It is possible that Abraham is deliberately playing on this double meaning. There are some midrashim that play with it. Josephus could well have been working off such a midrash, or he might simply have assumed on his own reading that the idiomatic sense of the word here was closest to a similarly idiomatic use of the word "neptis" (neice). Or, you know, he could've just missed something-- it can happen.
 
Last edited:

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I suspect that Josephus is utilizing the ambiguity to present a more acceptable arrangement to his Hellenized audience. As for Josephus:
Josephan scholarship in the 19th and early 20th century became focused on Josephus' relationship to the sect of the Pharisees[citation needed]. It consistently portrayed him as a member of the sect, and as a traitor to the Jewish nation — a view which became known as the classical concept of Josephus. In the mid-20th century a new generation of scholars[who?] challenged this view and formulated the modern concept of Josephus. They consider him a Pharisee, but restore his reputation in part as patriot and a historian of some standing. Steve Mason in his 1991 book argued that Josephus was not a Pharisee but an orthodox Aristocrat-Priest who became part of the Temple Establishment as a matter of deference, and not by willing association.
To pretend that this 1st century CE historian had access to some authentic yet otherwise unavailable information about Sarai is more than a little silly.
 

Shermana

Heretic
The word Abraham uses to describe Sarah is achot, which does literally mean sister, however it was frequently used idiomatically in ancient Hebrew, from the Biblical era well through the Second Temple era, quite possibly into Rabbinic times, to mean "kinswoman," a woman of one's own clan. The word ach (brother) and even sometimes fir other close family members were sometimes used this way, also. It is possible that Abraham is deliberately playing on this double meaning. There are some midrashim that play with it. Josephus could well have been working off such a midrash, or he might simply have assumed on his own reading that the idiomatic sense of the word here was closest to a similarly idiomatic use of the word "neptis" (neice). Or, you know, he could've just missed something-- it can happen.

I can roll with that, and it's something I've thought of before. The word "sister" can simply mean "kinswoman". The question is, does the account of her being Haran's daughter instead of Terah's clash with scripture.

If it doesn't, no problem.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Now we see in Genesis 11:31 that Sarai is defacto referred to as Terah's Daughter in Law, not blood-daughter.

And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.
With that said, I see no reason why this "Sarah was Abraham's blood half-sister" concept persists.

Thus, when Genesis 20:12 says "daughter" it most clearly is meant to say "daughter in Law" because the implication was already given in 11:31.

In addition this is apparently represented in the Aggadah:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0018_0_17522.html

In the Aggadah

Sarah is identified with Iscah, the daughter of Abraham's brother, Haran (Gen. 11:29), and thus Abraham's niece.
 
Last edited:
Top