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Does the Qur'an Deny the Crucifixion of Jesus?

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Just to add to the conversation Muslims use the Hadiths and tasfeer(context) to have clarification on what a verse says or doesn't say.

According to Sunni historical scriptures the verse clearly states that he was not crucified or killed so it doesn't mean to who or what person it was addresses. Also companions and people who were during the time live of Mohammed(saws) didn't belief that Jesus(pbuh) was crucified or killed, implying that Islam teaches something else means to suggest that hes companions either were ignorant, lied or didn't know.

Now regarding the Bahai they have there own interpretation of text.

Understood. I've never suggested otherwise. I've never suggested it can't be interpreted that way. I just suggested an alternative way of interpreting it. One that would harmonize with the Bible.

Were the Companions infallible? Is it possible they interpreted it wrongly? As you Muslims say Allah knows best.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
Understood. I've never suggested otherwise. I've never suggested it can't be interpreted that way. I just suggested an alternative way of interpreting it. One that would harmonize with the Bible.

Were the Companions infallible? Is it possible they interpreted it wrongly? As you Muslims say Allah knows best.

Well its not that the companions interpreted something its Mohammed(saws) who explained them and told them, its not that they read it somewhere or heard it somewhere they lived with the prophet(saws). But lets say that two people interpreted it wrongly then you still have over 20 accounts that say he wasn't crucified nor killed yet even those two agree with the 20 there is no different ''interpretation'' coming from that time. (As far i know)
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
I'm just going to throw one more idea out there, an idea I advanced in my book, that attempts to bring the two versions of this story even closer together.

In doing research for my book one interesting thing I noticed was that none of the gospels ever use the word "die" in reference to Jesus on the Cross. Instead they say he breathed his last, gave up the ghost (spirit), etc. It's also noteworthy to point out that the Gospel of John tells us that Pilate in hearing that Jesus was dead was surprised. This is because death by crucifixion is designed to be a slow, agonizing process. It can literally take days before someone succumbs. Yet Jesus died within hours.

Now the Qur'an tells us that God raised Jesus up to Himself. I have taken the position in this thread that this could be interpreted to refer to the Resurrection. But there is also another way to look at it. It's possible to take it to mean that God took the spirit of Christ back to Himself as Jesus hung on the Cross. That is before he would normally succumb to death by crucifixion. In this sense it was God who caused him to die and not crucifixion, perhaps to spare him further pain and humiliation. As we have seen some translators of the Qur'an do speak of God causing Jesus to die.

In this light we can take the statement "they killed him not nor did they crucify him" to mean that while the Jews (via the Romans) attempted to kill Jesus on the Cross they were unable to do so. It was God who took him out of this world. But it appeared to them they had succeeded in their plan.

What do people think?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Nazz, This is also a good interpretation. As Art said the Baha'i writings interprete that verse spiritually.

Quran contains certain verses with Hidden meaning. Those are figurative verse. Muhammad did not leave any interpretation of the Figurative verses. The Baha'is believe Muhammad was not allowed to reveal the mysteries of Quran untill God revealed them with new scriptures in its own time.
 

Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
I'm just going to throw one more idea out there, an idea I advanced in my book, that attempts to bring the two versions of this story even closer together.

In doing research for my book one interesting thing I noticed was that none of the gospels ever use the word "die" in reference to Jesus on the Cross. Instead they say he breathed his last, gave up the ghost (spirit), etc. It's also noteworthy to point out that the Gospel of John tells us that Pilate in hearing that Jesus was dead was surprised. This is because death by crucifixion is designed to be a slow, agonizing process. It can literally take days before someone succumbs. Yet Jesus died within hours.

Now the Qur'an tells us that God raised Jesus up to Himself. I have taken the position in this thread that this could be interpreted to refer to the Resurrection. But there is also another way to look at it. It's possible to take it to mean that God took the spirit of Christ back to Himself as Jesus hung on the Cross. That is before he would normally succumb to death by crucifixion. In this sense it was God who caused him to die and not crucifixion, perhaps to spare him further pain and humiliation. As we have seen some translators of the Qur'an do speak of God causing Jesus to die.

In this light we can take the statement "they killed him not nor did they crucify him" to mean that while the Jews (via the Romans) attempted to kill Jesus on the Cross they were unable to do so. It was God who took him out of this world. But it appeared to them they had succeeded in their plan.

What do people think?

An interesting observation..:)
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
Well i am pretty sure it contradicts somewhere in biblical references however since i am a Muslim i will just reply on the Islamic part. All the Islamic commentary we have agreed that Jesus(pbuh) wasn't even on the cross to start with and there are other accounts that say that one who looked like him was killed instead. It can probably refer to the other Jesus there were two lets not forget ;)
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Well i am pretty sure it contradicts somewhere in biblical references however since i am a Muslim i will just reply on the Islamic part. All the Islamic commentary we have agreed that Jesus(pbuh) wasn't even on the cross to start with and there are other accounts that say that one who looked like him was killed instead. It can probably refer to the other Jesus there were two lets not forget ;)

Something is becoming clear to me which is that Muslims seem to defer to what they feel are authoritative commentaries when interpreting the words of the Qur'an. This differs from the idea among Protestant Christians who believe in individual interpretation guided by the Holy Spirit.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
Something is becoming clear to me which is that Muslims seem to defer to what they feel are authoritative commentaries when interpreting the words of the Qur'an. This differs from the idea among Protestant Christians who believe in individual interpretation guided by the Holy Spirit.

Yeah i would agree partly but the numbers are not that high as in Christianity for example 1,6Billion Sunnis and 300/400Million Shia's. Lets not forget that the commentaries directly comes from the time of the Quran itself wherein the Bible is totally the opposite.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Yeah i would agree partly but the numbers are not that high as in Christianity for example 1,6Billion Sunnis and 300/400Million Shia's. Lets not forget that the commentaries directly comes from the time of the Quran itself wherein the Bible is totally the opposite.

I'm interested in how you partly disagree. Are you saying that some Muslims do interpret things individually according to their own understanding? Because that is what I did when I came into the faith. But I was coming from a Protestant Christian background.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
The Quran cannot deny Cruicification of Jesus, because, it confirms Bible is from God. So, the Quran and the Bible has to match.

To say Bible became corrupted makes no sense. God in Quran,and according to Moslem belief is an All-powerfull being who is aware of everything. Any time there was a need for guidance, God, according to Quran, sends His Messenger to guide people. So, in my opinion, when Moslems claim Bible was corrupted but God took Jesus to sky, and left people with a corrupted Book for 600 years, is a major theological issue with Islamic belief.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
The Quran cannot deny Cruicification of Jesus, because, it confirms Bible is from God. So, the Quran and the Bible has to match.

To say Bible became corrupted makes no sense. God in Quran,and according to Moslem belief is an All-powerfull being who is aware of everything. Any time there was a need for guidance, God, according to Quran, sends His Messenger to guide people. So, in my opinion, when Moslems claim Bible was corrupted but God took Jesus to sky, and left people with a corrupted Book for 600 years, is a major theological issue with Islamic belief.

I have already responded to this point from the Old Testament's point of view here : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3106666-post22.html

And also there's enough proof from Christian scholars about the interpolation and changes done to the original for New Testament as well. For example,
About John 7:53-8:11, here's what NIV says :
[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+7:53-8:11&version=NIV

About Luke 22:43-44, here's what NIV says :
Luke 22:44 Many early manuscripts do not have verses 43 and 44.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+22:43-44&version=NIV

About Mark 16:9-20, here's what NIV says :
[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16:9-20&version=NIV

Keep repeating what you will - but the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise and supports the Qur'anic claims in these matter.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I have already responded to this point from the Old Testament's point of view here : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3106666-post22.html

And also there's enough proof from Christian scholars about the interpolation and changes done to the original for New Testament as well. For example,
About John 7:53-8:11, here's what NIV says :
[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]
John 7:53-8:11 NIV - [The earliest manuscripts and many - Bible Gateway

About Luke 22:43-44, here's what NIV says :
Luke 22:44 Many early manuscripts do not have verses 43 and 44.
Luke 22:43-44 NIV - An angel from heaven appeared to him - Bible Gateway

About Mark 16:9-20, here's what NIV says :
[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]
Mark 16:9-20 NIV - [The earliest manuscripts and some - Bible Gateway

Keep repeating, what you will - but the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise.

No, You have not responded to my question. All you have shown is Quran is saying they changed the word. This is my question:

if indeed that is the case and after Jesus left, His Book was also corrupted, then what did those people have to be guided with from the time of Jesus to Muhammad? How could God, who is caring and loving, left them for 600 years without proper guidance? Why God didn't send them a prophet earlier to tell them the Truth and give them the Book for their guidance? Why waiting for 600 years and then sending Muhammad?


What answer Islam have for these questions? If you are going to reply, I demand you a complete answer to above 4 questions.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Keep repeating what you will - but the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise and supports the Qur'anic claims in these matter.

In addition to the 4 questions I asked above.
Your argument does not show Bible is corrupted.
Just because there are minor differences in the 4 Gospels.
I can show you verses in Quran which are slightly different from one Surrah to another.
In some cases there are some words do not appear, in multiple versions of the same verse in Quran. That does not mean it is corrupted.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
No, You have not responded to my question. All you have shown is Quran is saying they changed the word. This is my question:
Not exactly. I have shown evidences from the Biblical scholars that the Bible we have today has been changed from the Original.


if indeed that is the case and after Jesus left, His Book was also corrupted, then what did those people have to be guided with from the time of Jesus to Muhammad? How could God, who is caring and loving, left them for 600 years without proper guidance? Why God didn't send them a prophet earlier to tell them the Truth and give them the Book for their guidance? Why waiting for 600 years and then sending Muhammad?

What answer Islam have for these questions? If you are going to reply, I demand you a complete answer to above 4 questions.

Ask yourself, why did God send Messengers throughout time with different revelations ? He could just send one messenger with complete guidance and guide everyone - couldn't He ? But every time the messenger left, people lost God's message and hence another Prophet/Messenger was sent with Guidance after a certain period of time. As stated in the Holy Qur'an :

"And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." (Al Qur'an 5:48)

The Keyword here is TEST.

So here's how it all happened....

* Qur'an says that God sent the Taurat(Torah) and the Injeel(Gospel) to Moses(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh).
* It also says that in them were guidance - obviously because it was from the same God and ask us to have faith in those messengers and the books that God sent.
* Then it says that people corrupted or did not preserve the books over time.
* So then God sent the final revelation 'The Qur'an' to mankind via Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) promising to Guard it from corruption :
" Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian." (Al Qur'an 15:9)
Preservation of the Qur'an is historically proven. You can read more details about this, if you want, here: Proof of The Preservation of the Quran

* So now you ask Why did God not preserve the Taurat(Torah) and the Injeel(Gospel) and leave them without guidance for so long ?

Answer to that question is no different than that of, for example, 'Why did God not save the innocent child from being murdered and why did He leave the innocent child and its family to suffer?' God didn't do it ... but He certainly allowed it to happen. That is, evil committed by sinners is a TEST for the Righteous and it is all part of the Divine Plan.

According to Muslim belief God sent messengers throughout times and all the messengers were sent to a specific people except Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) who was sent to entire mankind and as the final messenger as stated in the Holy Qur'an :
"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing." (Al Qur'an 33:40)
"Verily in this (Qur'an) is a Message for people who would (truly) worship Allah. We sent thee(Muhammad) not, but as a Mercy for all creatures." (Al Qur'an 21:106-107)

Since there would be no more messengers coming after this, of course, the message needed to be preserved till the end of times.

p.s: And why after 600 years is a really silly question. And once again the answer is no different than to the questions : Why did God sent Moses so long after Noah, and why did God sent Jesus so long after Moses (almost 1300-1400 years) etc.?
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
In addition to the 4 questions I asked above.
Your argument does not show Bible is corrupted.
Just because there are minor differences in the 4 Gospels.
I can show you verses in Quran which are slightly different from one Surrah to another.
In some cases there are some words do not appear, in multiple versions of the same verse in Quran. That does not mean it is corrupted.


:sarcastic
Who is talking about differences between verses from one Surah to another ? God can repeat anything, anyway He wants. We are talking about preservation of the original manuscript. Minor differences ? What a joke ... I'll just show one crucifixion related major difference here as I have explained here : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3113049-post8.html
Moreover, the things I have shown you shows that the Bible we have today have verses included which are not found in the original manuscript. :(
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Not exactly. I have shown evidences from the Biblical scholars that the Bible we have today has been changed from the Original.

If you claim, there is no original bible exists, you have no way to show the Bible today is different from original one.



Ask yourself, why did God send Messengers throughout time with different revelations ? He could just send one messenger with complete guidance and guide everyone - couldn't He ? But every time the messenger left, people lost God's message and hence another Prophet/Messenger was sent with Guidance after a certain period of time.
What you are missing, as soon as the Message is lost, God sent His next Messenger. Not waiting for 600 years!
Moreover, missing message can be due to adding false interpretations, but not neccesarily changing the accual Text.


As stated in the Holy Qur'an :

"And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." (Al Qur'an 5:48)

It has nothing to do with our discussion.


The Keyword here is TEST.
What you are missing, is that, for God to Test His Servents, He gives the Proper guidance. Then whoever is acting the opposite of Guidance, is failing the Test.
The Problem with your view is that, If the was no Proper guidance for 600 years, then how could those people be tested?


So here's how it all happened....

* Qur'an says that God sent the Taurat(Torah) and the Injeel(Gospel) to Moses(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh).
* It also says that in them were guidance - obviously because it was from the same God and ask us to have faith in those messengers and the books that God sent.
Ok.


* Then it says that people corrupted or did not preserve the books over time.

There is no verse in Quran that says, the Torah and Injil became corrupted. It is talking about additions of false interpretations of Injil and Torah Books.

* So then God sent the final revelation 'The Qur'an' to mankind via Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) promising to Guard it from corruption :
" Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian." (Al Qur'an 15:9)
Preservation of the Qur'an is historically proven. You can read more details about this, if you want, here: Proof of The Preservation of the Quran

This is not related to my questions.


* So now you ask Why did God not preserve the Taurat(Torah) and the Injeel(Gospel) and leave them without guidance for so long ?


Answer to that question is no different than that of, for example, 'Why did God not save the innocent child from being murdered and why did He leave the innocent child and its family to suffer?' God didn't do it ... but He certainly allowed it to happen. That is, evil committed by sinners is a TEST for the Righteous and it is all part of the Divine Plan.

No, you are comparing to unrelated things. That is Falacy.


According to Muslim belief God sent messengers throughout times and all the messengers were sent to a specific people except Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) who was sent to entire mankind and as the final messenger as stated in the Holy Qur'an :
"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing." (Al Qur'an 33:40)
This has nothing to do with this discussion.

The verse says "Seal" does not say last.


p.s: And why after 600 years is a really silly question.
Just because you feel frustrated and have no answer, does not mean, it is a silly question.
God gave Quran to ponder on its verses. That means you ask questions untill you find the answer.
So, you are saying opposite of Quran.


And once again the answer is no different than to the questions : Why did God sent Moses so long after Noah, and why did God sent Jesus so long after Moses (almost 1300-1400 years) etc.?

No, It is not the same Question. You did not understand my question.

Between Noah and Moses were many many other Prophets. So, your example, does not work here.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
:sarcastic
Who is talking about differences between verses from one Surah to another ? God can repeat anything, anyway He wants. We are talking about preservation of the original manuscript. Minor differences ? What a joke ... I'll just show one crucifixion related major difference here as I have explained here : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3113049-post8.html
Moreover, the things I have shown you shows that the Bible we have today have verses included which are not found in the original manuscript. :(
You are confusing. Those statements regarding Crucification, complete each other. They are not contgradicting.
Moreover, even if there are minor inaccuracies, that does not mean corruption.
That's like you have some Sahih hadithes, that are a little different from each other. But Bible is alot more accurate than Moslem Hadithes. Those Authors of Bible were inspired by God. Each one later wrote what He saw in His visions, as complete as He could.
 
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Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
There is a succinct reference to this as follows:

"...most Muslims maintain that Jesus was not crucified, but one who looked like Him was instead, based on their understanding of Qur'án 4:156. Shoghi Effendi, however, states that the Qur'ánic passage indicates that the spiritual reality of Christ was beyond crucifixion, not that His body escaped such a fate (Lights of Guidance, 1646, 1652, 1669); this resolves an apparent contradiction between Islam and Christianity. "

Abdul-Baha though also commented on the Qur'anic verse saying the the Spirit of Christ could not be crucified and that those who crucified Him were hoping they had killed His Cause... The disciples later rallied and understood that the martrydom of Jesus was not the end and that the Cause of Christ was "resurrected" spiritually:

"We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after resurrection is the same thing."

9 October 1947 to an individual believer

Is your view that Jesus died physically on the cross?
 
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