What is sexually immoral?

Wow, I can't believe this thread I created in 2008 is still going strong!

In response to Nix, I'm not sure I agree that having unprotected sex is unethical. It can, in certain contexts, be foolish, especially if you're not married and earning a living. I believe too strongly in giving weight to the consequences of individual to accept that we can call unprotected sex morally wrong. It is a personal choice, for better or worse. Does it create a burden on society? Perhaps. But it also creates an environment of obligation for the parents. It encourages them to contribute to society. Welfare systems that don't stimulate this sense of obligation, but instead placates, THAT is a burden to society. Welfare is necessary, but if unplanned pregnancies becomes a burden to society, I am far more inclined to blame the government system than trying to institute a law that prohibits unprotected sex. How is that any different from the Catholic church prohibiting the use of condoms?

Storm said:

So, your coworker selfishly decided not to hide who he was anymore, fought for custody of his kids, and his son tried to kill himself? And now you're ****** that he "abandoned" the son who would rather commit suicide than confront the fact that daddy isn't straight? Sorry, the problem here is still bigotry, not homosexuality.

That's taking your rather fishy story at face value.

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this rebuttal comes as no surprise whatsoever, especially from a homosexual perspective...
it bears a striking resemblance to what Allen had said; expounding his own self righteousness about not hiding "who he was" anymore...
NEVERMIND about the fact that he DID hide out, in a heterosexual marriage...
by playing his wife for a fool all those years & then "coming out" right at the time when his kids were going through (an already difficult time) of puberty...
but he was too blind to see, just how cold hearted & selfish that really was...

& he too expounded about how the bigotry was ONLY coming from others...
even though HE was the one demonstrating blatant intolerance for anyone & anything that contradicted his OWN self vindicating opinion...

no doubt; you'd like to THINK this account of Allen's disaster, is a "rather fishy story"...
because he represents an ugly, selfish, cold hearted & not so admirable example of homosexuality...
but (hopefully) others can learn from his mistakes & do things differently

PRV357 said:

because he represents an ugly, selfish, cold hearted & not so admirable example of homosexuality...

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No, he doesn't. Others have pointed out details that just didn't add up. Not my fault you have credibility issues.

PRV357 said:

this rebuttal comes as no surprise whatsoever, especially from a homosexual perspective...
it bears a striking resemblance to what Allen had said; expounding his own self righteousness about not hiding "who he was" anymore...
NEVERMIND about the fact that he DID hide out, in a heterosexual marriage...
by playing his wife for a fool all those years & then "coming out" right at the time when his kids were going through (an already difficult time) of puberty...
but he was too blind to see, just how cold hearted & selfish that really was...

& he too expounded about how the bigotry was ONLY coming from others...
even though HE was the one demonstrating blatant intolerance for anyone & anything that contradicted his OWN self vindicating opinion...

no doubt; you'd like to THINK this account of Allen's disaster, is a "rather fishy story"...
because he represents an ugly, selfish, cold hearted & not so admirable example of homosexuality...
but (hopefully) others can learn from his mistakes & do things differently

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You may want to try to not use "bold" and "caps" so much when you write. It makes your arguments more difficult to read and comes off more like yelling than the emphasis you're intending.

Also, I feel a general lack of respect from you for the opinions of the people you're talking to. People on this forum are more than willing to share their opinions with you, but don't be surprised when people get aggressive if you immediately marginalize their arguments or personal feelings.

MysticSang'ha said:

First: To come out of the closet after many years of hiding is not a self-absorbed agenda. It is a major decision, and not all homosexuals, bisexuals, and transgendered choose to come out. Many keep their orientation hidden out of shame or fear.

Second:
I find it interesting that you think it should be acceptable for people to express how they feel about homosexuality, and about the dad's decision to come out, but that if he expresses what he wants that it is somehow unacceptable.

Third:
Nobody is playing the martyr around here by pointing out blatant and institutionalized prejudice, bigotry, and hatred for somebody's sexual orientation.

Fourth (and finally):
The teenager who tried to commit suicide was begging for help, as do queer teens who try to commit suicide. Both are in need of immediate attention, love, acceptance, and security.

I want to summarize that the decision to come out after building a family is much more complex and difficult than passing it off as just trying to get off something intriguing. On all sides, it's best when everybody is able to first grieve the loss of what WAS, and then together build what IS. There are examples of families who have found ways to rebuild and renegotiate the makeup of the family, but together they have done it.

This is true when it is a spouse, a parent, a child, or a grandparent that has made the decision to come out of the closet.

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RE: First... some may choose not to divulge their orientation out of respect for others... recognizing & accepting when it's not compatible with the lives of others... demonstrating a genuine respect for diversity of opinion, regardless of whether it agrees or disagrees with their own...
others may choose not to exploit their orientation out of respect for themselves... since their intimate & private lives are nobody else's business, so they have no desire to make it their business... to each their own... live & let live

RE: Second... it should be acceptable for anyone to express how they feel (as reasonably as possible) about homosexuality or heterosexuality or whatever...
whether in finding common ground or acknowledging our differences...
but Allen's behavior & attitude was unacceptable, because he stubbornly refused to even try to do that... it was as if it had to be his way... if only he had been willing to just agree to disagree... & maybe time would eventually heal the wounds...
** kinda like what you suggested; about the grieving process

RE: Third... "playing the martyr" is a common expression for those, who only seem to sympathize with one side (their side) of an issue... which deviates into hypocrisy, when they outright ignore blatant prejudice, bigotry & hatred within their own camp

RE: Fourth... indeed; both suicidal teenagers needed immediate help, love & security... as was the case of Allen's son; when his whole life's foundation & stability had been ripped out from under him

Storm said:

No, he doesn't. Others have pointed out details that just didn't add up. Not my fault you have credibility issues.

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of course... it's a lot easier to just deny that Allen even existed...
& scrutinizing my credibility is the most convenient way to remain in denial

PRV357 said:

RE: First... some may choose not to divulge their orientation out of respect for others... recognizing & accepting when it's not compatible with the lives of others... demonstrating a genuine respect for diversity of opinion, regardless of whether it agrees or disagrees with their own...
others may choose not to exploit their orientation out of respect for themselves... since their intimate & private lives are nobody else's business, so they have no desire to make it their business... to each their own... live & let live

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Would you agree not to "divulge" your sexual orientation out of respect for others, then?

Also, may I ask why you consistently use bolded and italic text in your posts? No offense intended, but it doesn't exactly make them easy on the eye.

PRV357 said:

of course... it's a lot easier to just deny that Allen even existed...
& scrutinizing my credibility is the most convenient way to remain in denial

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I didn't deny it, I said it was fishy AFTER I responded as if it were genuine. Funny how that part got ignored.

Tell, me which is more immoral: living a lie, or being honest?

PRV357 said:

RE: First... some may choose not to divulge their orientation out of respect for others... recognizing & accepting when it's not compatible with the lives of others... demonstrating a genuine respect for diversity of opinion, regardless of whether it agrees or disagrees with their own...
others may choose not to exploit their orientation out of respect for themselves... since their intimate & private lives are nobody else's business, so they have no desire to make it their business... to each their own... live & let live

RE: Second... it should be acceptable for anyone to express how they feel (as reasonably as possible) about homosexuality or heterosexuality or whatever...
whether in finding common ground or acknowledging our differences...
but Allen's behavior & attitude was unacceptable, because he stubbornly refused to even try to do that... it was as if it had to be his way... if only he had been willing to just agree to disagree... & maybe time would eventually heal the wounds...
** kinda like what you suggested; about the grieving process

RE: Third... "playing the martyr" is a common expression for those, who only seem to sympathize with one side (their side) of an issue... which deviates into hypocrisy, when they outright ignore blatant prejudice, bigotry & hatred within their own camp

RE: Fourth... indeed; both suicidal teenagers needed immediate help, love & security... as was the case of Allen's son; when his whole life's foundation & stability had been ripped out from under him

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It's important to me that Christians don't openly practice their lifestyle.

Now don't get me wrong; I'm not a bigot. They can do so in secrecy if they wish.

But out of respect for me and themselves, they just shouldn't be who they are in public because I have have issues with it and it's just not compatible with my life. That's their problem, not mine, and they should respect the diversity of opinions.

And if they have KIDS, then that's doubly true, since coming out as a Christian to a family could result in stability issues:

Matthew 10:34-36
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

sarcastic)

NIX said:

Here's one that's been left out.

Unprotected intercourse by a couple who knows they cannot afford to raise any/any more children.
The insuing poverty then becomes a burden on the children, and where applicable- a strain on the relationship. When this is knowingly carried out - and repeatedly - to the point that long term public assistance is required, you have knowingly added to the economic strain of all of your tax paying neighbors, and society at large.

If you are economically unequipt, intercourse without birthcontrol is unethical.

It is immoral (to use their own term) IMO for churches (such as Roman Catholic) to threaten its followers with hellfire, in relation to the use of birthcontrol.

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I think this is a good point.

Although I do think there is a large spectrum of immorality here. In the realm of that which is sexually immoral, a forced rape would be somewhere on the high end, and unprotected sex by those unable to support children would be somewhere on the low end.

This is because I think intentions matter, and it seems that most of this would be due to ignorance rather than malevolence. People that do this often are young, sometimes not educated in proper birth control (or in some religions are taught from an early age that birth control is unethical), tend not to be big on long-term planning, etc.

It's more a matter of irresponsibility, which in my view would be a lack of good ethics in this area rather than a surplus of bad ethics, basically.

tomspug said:

Wow, I can't believe this thread I created in 2008 is still going strong!

In response to Nix, I'm not sure I agree that having unprotected sex is unethical. It can, in certain contexts, be foolish, especially if you're not married and earning a living. I believe too strongly in giving weight to the consequences of individual to accept that we can call unprotected sex morally wrong. It is a personal choice, for better or worse. Does it create a burden on society? Perhaps. But it also creates an environment of obligation for the parents. It encourages them to contribute to society. Welfare systems that don't stimulate this sense of obligation, but instead placates, THAT is a burden to society. Welfare is necessary, but if unplanned pregnancies becomes a burden to society, I am far more inclined to blame the government system than trying to institute a law that prohibits unprotected sex. How is that any different from the Catholic church prohibiting the use of condoms?

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I don't have an answer to your question, except to Glomp the living **** out of you and scream "YOU'RE BACK!!!! "

NIX said:

Here's one that's been left out.

Unprotected intercourse by a couple who knows they cannot afford to raise any/any more children.
The insuing poverty then becomes a burden on the children, and where applicable- a strain on the relationship. When this is knowingly carried out - and repeatedly - to the point that long term public assistance is required, you have knowingly added to the economic strain of all of your tax paying neighbors, and society at large.

If you are economically unequipt, intercourse without birthcontrol is unethical.

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Absolutely agree.

PRV357 said:

RE: First... some may choose not to divulge their orientation out of respect for others... recognizing & accepting when it's not compatible with the lives of others... demonstrating a genuine respect for diversity of opinion, regardless of whether it agrees or disagrees with their own...
others may choose not to exploit their orientation out of respect for themselves... since their intimate & private lives are nobody else's business, so they have no desire to make it their business... to each their own... live & let live

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The only part of your argument I agree with is "live and let live." Otherwise, the rest of your point is the wish that everyone who isn't straight should stay in the closet out of respect for people who don't like The Gay.

RE: Second... it should be acceptable for anyone to express how they feel (as reasonably as possible) about homosexuality or heterosexuality or whatever...
whether in finding common ground or acknowledging our differences...
but Allen's behavior & attitude was unacceptable, because he stubbornly refused to even try to do that... it was as if it had to be his way... if only he had been willing to just agree to disagree... & maybe time would eventually heal the wounds...
** kinda like what you suggested; about the grieving process

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You aren't saying a lot about what he actually said, or what anybody else actually said. Your story isn't convincing because you're adding in a lot of modifiers and superlatives, which sounds as if you're merely weaving in your own bias instead of talking about what actually happened.

RE: Third... "playing the martyr" is a common expression for those, who only seem to sympathize with one side (their side) of an issue... which deviates into hypocrisy, when they outright ignore blatant prejudice, bigotry & hatred within their own camp

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Hey, as a bi, I hear prejudice from the LGBTQ community toward my own orientation. Saying that I'm not being completely honest because I'm married to a man with children. Or saying that I'm not being honest and just playing it safe instead of coming out as a lesbian. In other words, I've been told my orientation doesn't even exist.

I call them out on it too. But to paint a broad brush on the entire queer community is sad. I work with Christians. The majority of my family is Christian. Most of my friends are Christians. I've heard some Christians display a terrible amount of hatred and bigotry toward homosexuals, but I don't extend their behavior as a qualifier for how all Christians are.

Just a thought.

RE: Fourth... indeed; both suicidal teenagers needed immediate help, love & security... as was the case of Allen's son; when his whole life's foundation & stability had been ripped out from under him
[/I]

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Gotcha. And the teens who were kicked out of their homes because their parents told them they should either "get over it" or rot in hell. Sometimes even being physically threatened, beaten, raped, or nearly murdered because their orientation was discovered by their family.

I fight for the protection and acceptance for these teens. Perhaps if more people loved and embraced Allen when he was a teenager for his orientation, he wouldn't feel so pressured to keep quiet and to live a lie for decades. You think?

Honestly, there are alot of thigns that doesn´t matter about your story.

First of all, what makes you think the kid wanted to commit suicide because his father was gay? I will give you some other options:

1-He wanted to commit suicide because his father was gay

2- Or because he divorced, it had nothing to do with him being gay. he would have tried suicide if he had left with ether a woman or a man.

3- Nothing to do with the end of marriage, it had to do with the change of place. They didnt like the new place, he wasnt good making friends.

4-Naturally tilted towards depression, dad stuff was just the specific way it manifested then

5- Actually, it was none of the stuff you mentioned in itself but the fact that the father didn´t know how to handle it. He didn´t know how to give enough time and attention to his kid, specially given all the changes that were going on in his kid´s life because of his decision. Changes are not necessarily bad, but when taken wrongly, they can be, and it is easy to take something the wrong way when you are a teenager and have just gotten completely out of your comfort zone

6- All the above.

So now by all means tell me, how do you know or think that it was just or only number 1? Or even that number 1 was related? It could have been inderectly related but not be the actual cause.

Also, PLEASE drop the bold thing. It makes you look like a troll and its way harder to understand you. Instead of giving emphasis to one part of what you say, you diminish everything you write and make reading you to be a real pain.

MysticSang'ha said:

I don't have an answer to your question, except to Glomp the living **** out of you and scream "YOU'RE BACK!!!! "

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This is actually the only reason I came back. No, j/k. But I'm happy to be glomped once again!

Drolefille said:

We did this before. It was horrying and abusive. It happened within the past 30 years on widespread scale in the US - it is North Carolina that is dealing with some of the effects right now. Education and access to birth control solves the problem more than violating someone's body because you know what's best for them.

I watch adult men ask whether she can get pregnant if she's on top. They have kids, unsurprisingly. But they never got the education to know better.

Forced or coercive sterilization is disgusting.

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Yes but the culture (here at least) is concerning. So many people have kids they can't look after and they refuse any kind of education. The ones having these kids are the ones who leave school at 14 to take drugs. Their kids grow up around drug taking, abuse and alcoholism so what chance do they have?

If people can't sort their own mess out someone has to, i'm sick of my government playing baby-sitter for every screw-up that has a kid.

How can you educate people if they're not there to educate. We have easier access to birth control than many countries.

I suppose it depends on who you ask. To most of the "big" religions, generally speaking, any sex outside of marriage is immoral.

Though I think we could all agree that having sex with minors is immoral across the board.

Storm said:

I didn't deny it, I said it was fishy AFTER I responded as if it were genuine. Funny how that part got ignored.

Tell, me which is more immoral: living a lie, or being honest?

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by being honest in the first place, he could have avoided living a lie...

& prevented all that devastation & near tragedy from ever happening to others

MysticSang'ha said:

Gotcha. And the teens who were kicked out of their homes because their parents told them they should either "get over it" or rot in hell. Sometimes even being physically threatened, beaten, raped, or nearly murdered because their orientation was discovered by their family.

I fight for the protection and acceptance for these teens. Perhaps if more people loved and embraced Allen when he was a teenager for his orientation, he wouldn't feel so pressured to keep quiet and to live a lie for decades. You think?

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GOTCHA??? sounds as if you're merely weaving in your own bias instead of even believing what actually happened to Allen's SON...

want another GOTCHA??? your also demonstrating my point for me...
RE: Third... "playing the martyr" is a common expression for those, who only seem to sympathize with one side (their side) of an issue... which deviates into hypocrisy, when they outright ignore blatant prejudice, bigotry & hatred within their own camp

PRV357 said:

GOTCHA??? sounds as if you're merely weaving in your own bias instead of even believing what actually happened to Allen's SON...

want another GOTCHA??? your also demonstrating my point for me...
RE: Third... "playing the martyr" is a common expression for those, who only seem to sympathize with one side (their side) of an issue... which deviates into hypocrisy, when they outright ignore blatant prejudice, bigotry & hatred within their own camp

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I already accounted for the prejudice in my own camp.

Are you going to answer the question? You already admitted that he should have just been honest before starting a family. Then when he was a teen, do you agree he should have been loved and accepted for who he is and who he loves regardless of his orientation?

There is no "gotcha" as in "you're caught". I said "gotcha" to say "I get what you're saying." So, I ask you to answer my question please.