How does one choose?

Muffled said:

Absolutely not. The person was acting by his own will and was not acting according to the will of God. However God does at times ordain people to do such things. God said that He ordained Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Israel and take people captive. He also ordained Cyrus to allow His people to return to Israel.

God knows everything and rarely intervenes.

This isn't neccessarily the case. From my youth the devil has sought to take my life but God would not allow it. However there are scenarios where a person serves God with the cataclysmic end of his life.

There isn't any other time for me to die since I am in old age already.

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If "God" knows everything, and rarely intervenes, then he is, in fact, giving permission and ordaining it to happen. He must want it to happen, otherwise it would not happen, it would happen a different way. You seem to think that "God" would not allow something to happen in your life and would step in where necessary, therefore, anything bad that does happen, happens because he WANTS it to and doesn't want to step in and stop it from happening. Therefore, the logic stands, that he did ordain the shooting. He not only knew that man was going to shoot those people and did nothing to prevent it, but gave him his blessing obviously as he did nothing to stop him even though he could have. That man was his tool. Do you really not understand that?

Draka said:

If "God" knows everything, and rarely intervenes, then he is, in fact, giving permission and ordaining it to happen. He must want it to happen, otherwise it would not happen, it would happen a different way. You seem to think that "God" would not allow something to happen in your life and would step in where necessary, therefore, anything bad that does happen, happens because he WANTS it to and doesn't want to step in and stop it from happening. Therefore, the logic stands, that he did ordain the shooting. He not only knew that man was going to shoot those people and did nothing to prevent it, but gave him his blessing obviously as he did nothing to stop him even though he could have. That man was his tool. Do you really not understand that?

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I believe life is like a book. I may not want the villian to commit murder but the book says that it happens. I believe I could scratch out those lines and write in something different but then it would no longer be the book by the author. I believe the person deciding to shoot people is writing his own story and if God intervenes it is not his story. God intervenes in my case because that is my story. God permits people to write their own story but He does not ordain it. In my case I believe God does ordain what I do and the result is good not evil.

I don't believe there is any evidence to that affect.

Iridescence said:

I've known miserable people who would tell you they have given their lives to Jesus. Then there's the ones who probably wouldn't say they've done so, but who do have peace, love, and joy. Methinks it has less to do with one's ideology and more to do with one's personality. :yes:

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I believe people might say that without ever having received Jesus as Lord. What they really mean is that they still control their own lives and think that their own egotistical actions are a gift of their life to God.

I believe that I am not talking about an ideology but an action. I believe a person's personality is not going to change but the peace, love and joy will be there overlaying that personality.

johnhanks said:

What a conveniently packaged family you have, each in her/his neat little pigeonhole behaving precisely according to stereotype. Almost beggars belief.

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I believe that truth often is stranger than fiction. I suppose you are looking for an exception. I have a cousin who is a physicist. I think I would list him as an agnostic becasue he is not totally opposed to a concept of God. I beleive he doesn't display the negative qualities of my other family members so it is less evident as to whether his life has peace love and joy or not. After all, I believe the experience is an inward one which does not have to express itself outwardly.

Muffled said:

This is exactly my point. If there are differing views on what is Good, the only way of resolving the issue is for there to be God who is Good and the one who defines it.

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How is that possible? I see very little argument for a good God.

My question to you Muffled, is

If god had said it was ok to rape little children, would you think it was ok as well?

Muffled said:

I believe that truth often is stranger than fiction. I suppose you are looking for an exception.

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Not really - just someone with a fuzzier-edged, less sharply sculpted personality - like most real people.

Muffled said:

I have a cousin who is a physicist. I think I would list him as an agnostic becasue he is not totally opposed to a concept of God.

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Astonishing how often believers characterise atheists as 'anti-god', as though their atheism stems from an active antagonism to the idea of a deity. Muffled, I can't speak for other atheists but I can for myself: I don't hate the concept of deity, I just see no evidence for the existence of one.

Muffled said:

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I believe life is like a book. I may not want the villian to commit murder but the book says that it happens. I believe I could scratch out those lines and write in something different but then it would no longer be the book by the author. I believe the person deciding to shoot people is writing his own story and if God intervenes it is not his story. God intervenes in my case because that is my story. God permits people to write their own story but He does not ordain it. In my case I believe God does ordain what I do and the result is good not evil.
.

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Folks come up with some very very complex reasons not to blame God for the evil he does

Muffled said:

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I believe life is like a book. I may not want the villian to commit murder but the book says that it happens. I believe I could scratch out those lines and write in something different but then it would no longer be the book by the author. I believe the person deciding to shoot people is writing his own story and if God intervenes it is not his story. God intervenes in my case because that is my story. God permits people to write their own story but He does not ordain it. In my case I believe God does ordain what I do and the result is good not evil.

I don't believe there is any evidence to that affect.

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The author of a book is external to it. What is external to the world apart from God?

Photonic said:

How is that possible? I see very little argument for a good God.

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I believe that is due to having your own ides of what is good that differ from other people's ideas of what is good and from God's idea of what is good.

Quaxotic said:

My question to you Muffled, is

If god had said it was ok to rape little children, would you think it was ok as well?

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Yes. However I believe God would not say it is OK.

Heathen Hammer said:

Folks come up with some very very complex reasons not to blame God for the evil he does

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I don't believe you can just assert your assumption as a fact. I believe God is good because He says He is. I believe that means simply that one attributes evil to God simply because one does not understand what is good.

Muffled said:

I don't believe you can just assert your assumption as a fact. I believe God is good because He says He is. I believe that means simply that one attributes evil to God simply because one does not understand what is good.

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So, if "God" says he is good, and "God" kills a bunch of people (wait, he does do that) then it must be good to kill a bunch of people, right? If "God" is good because he says he is, and "God" says it's okay to rape babies then it must be okay because "God" said so and "God" is good.

Our little puny human minds can't possibly discern good from bad so better to follow a book written by a bunch of men about a god, which claims to be the author of such book (even though written by the hand of such puny little men) to tell us that we don't know good from bad so we better listen to what this god says is good and bad even though this god does all these horrible things (but wait, how dare we, with our puny human minds, judge these things as horrible for we don't know good from bad).

Yeah, makes loads of sense. :areyoucra

Muffled said:

Yes. However I believe God would not say it is OK.

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If you believe Numbers 31, god said it was not just OK but mandatory to kill little boys and keep their virgin sisters as booty. This was good?

Muffled said:

I believe God is good because He says He is.

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...Not because He does good things?

PolyHedral said:

...Not because He does good things?

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We don't know what good is to judge that of course. We have to just trust that "God" is good and base what is good on that. :areyoucra So, obviously, mass murder is good, genocide is good, killing children is good, slavery is good, and all kinds of other crapola is good. I mean...who are we to judge the "goodness" of "God" right? We're only human and he's..."God".

Muffled said:

I don't believe you can just assert your assumption as a fact. I believe God is good because He says He is. I believe that means simply that one attributes evil to God simply because one does not understand what is good.

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Really, why not?
What you believe is not relevant to what is written. What is written is that God does a lot of evil... though the words do not say it, the Bible being his puff piece, or spin, if you will. But observing the actions show their evilness; like I've said, place his actions onto the shoulders of a man instead of a deity, and you'd label that man a villain.

If I had before me a button, that by pushing it, I could flood the entire planet we live on, and end the lives of every single living thing, land and sea, except for a handful of humans, about 8 in number, and several breeding pairs of most land animals...

And I pushed that button. I pushed it because I was able to push it...

What would you call me?

Draka said:

So, if "God" says he is good, and "God" kills a bunch of people (wait, he does do that) then it must be good to kill a bunch of people, right? If "God" is good because he says he is, and "God" says it's okay to rape babies then it must be okay because "God" said so and "God" is good.

Our little puny human minds can't possibly discern good from bad so better to follow a book written by a bunch of men about a god, which claims to be the author of such book (even though written by the hand of such puny little men) to tell us that we don't know good from bad so we better listen to what this god says is good and bad even though this god does all these horrible things (but wait, how dare we, with our puny human minds, judge these things as horrible for we don't know good from bad).

Yeah, makes loads of sense. :areyoucra

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Hi, Draka! I've been going through the OT myself lately, and I've found it to be very difficult to contemplate issues like this (although I'm pretty sure "raping babies" is a bit of an exaggeration ). The one thing that has stood out to me throughout the parts that I've studied that is consistent is that it is a coherent story. The story is that God is trying to be close to humanity again. He's lost the relationship with them because of sin and is desperate to have them back. For better or worse, God seems intent in the OT to use the Israelites as a means to do this.

What does this have to do with the killing of women, children and livestock? Well, for one thing, after they've killed all the men (which is somehow not as atrocious?) what exactly are they going to do with them? The Bible isn't really explicit as to what is and isn't necessary. One thing the Bible ISN'T is gratuitous. Everything that was written was left in for a reason, to illustrate some idea or important element of the story. If we take the premise that the Israelites are essential in God's plan to restore his relationship with humanity and accept it as a good motivation, it is plausible (but perhaps not acceptable by today's standards) that the destruction of societies that stood as an obstruction to this good end served a godly purpose. I'm not saying this is an argument to accept such an idea, but I think this is ultimately the mental leap you would need to take to accept these actions of these Israelites and ultimately the will of God. It does, as most of the Bible, require faith in God's intent.

Draka said:

So, if "God" says he is good, and "God" kills a bunch of people (wait, he does do that) then it must be good to kill a bunch of people, right? If "God" is good because he says he is, and "God" says it's okay to rape babies then it must be okay because "God" said so and "God" is good.

Our little puny human minds can't possibly discern good from bad so better to follow a book written by a bunch of men about a god, which claims to be the author of such book (even though written by the hand of such puny little men) to tell us that we don't know good from bad so we better listen to what this god says is good and bad even though this god does all these horrible things (but wait, how dare we, with our puny human minds, judge these things as horrible for we don't know good from bad).

Yeah, makes loads of sense. :areyoucra

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I believe you are wrong. I believe what is good for God to do is not necessarily good for man to do. I believe God has the wisdom to decide when a person should die but man lacks that wisdom.

That argument would work if God said so but I believe He never has so the argument is moot.

That is what I believe. I also believe that you will not find a lack of men willing to molest children. What does that say about the intelligence of men?