Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?

savagewind · Aug 9, 2012

The Jehovah's Witnesses teach it is their leaders who are personally mentioned at Matthew 24:45.

I wonder if there are other opinions on what is described at Matthew 24:45?

Here is what I think. Some Jehovah's Witnesses that I know mock others who believe "once saved always saved" so it is beyond my ability to understand that they INSIST on continuing to believe a group of men are chosen to be "appointed over all (God's) belongings". How is this doctrine they believe once true, always true?

Matthew 24:48 warns that the slave might abandon his commission.

How is it in harmony with John 15:4-6?

4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned

How is anyone convinced that the men who lead the Jehovah's Witnesses are abiding still in Christ? If works is the answer please explain other works of faith in Christ NOT related to the Watchtower. How are they being accomplished?

Please and thank you.

savagewind · Aug 10, 2012

Well then.....

I have thought it means The Holy Spirit. But then I realized that nowhere is it intimated in scripture that The Holy Spirit acts as a slave. John 14:16,17 John 15:26 John 16:17

The man Jesus (Yehoshua) behaved as a slave and even said that to be greatest one must become least. John 13:5

Another clue that it pictures Yehoshua is He did come to do not his own will but the will of The Father. Matthew 26:39 John 14:10

The last clue that I am compelled to share is that he indeed called himself food. "The bread from heaven" so it proves scripturally that he has food to offer. John 6:35

allright · Aug 10, 2012

It means those who are given places of authority over others in the Church starting with the Apostles and including pastors deacons etc

savagewind · Aug 10, 2012

allright said:
It means those who are given places of authority over others in the Church starting with the Apostles and including pastors deacons etc

I can not agree because it calls the slave "faithful and discreet". And it has been evident many times over that many leaders of the church are neither.

savagewind · Aug 10, 2012

Man cannot be faithful and discreet. They can only try. Why? Because it is written at
Romans 3:4 "Let God be found true and every man a liar".
One can not be a liar and faithful/discreet also.

savagewind · Aug 10, 2012

Some scriptures that point to Jesus "who"-
Matthew 21:10
Luke 4:36, 7:49, 8:25, 10:22

Who at Matthew 24:45 does not mean "which" one imo. Does it not mean "what will he do?"
Describe him. WHO is he?

allright · Aug 10, 2012

savagewind said:
I can not agree because it calls the slave "faithful and discreet". And it has been evident many times over that many leaders of the church are neither.

He is given his position because he is faithful and wise, he has to choose what to do with it
Mathew 24:48 "But if that wicked servant" He can backslide

savagewind · Aug 10, 2012

How can church leaders be faithful and wise when there are many different versions of Christianity? I have to assume you mean persons appointed to Christian Churches because the question appears in the testament about Jesus.

What does faithful and wise mean?

And if it is food that those leaders serve how are we to choose as there are different kinds?

Do you not know the scripture that says there is one Lord? How then is the faithful and wise servant many lords or leaders?

4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Shuddhasattva · Aug 10, 2012

This isn't about BDSM?

savagewind · Aug 10, 2012

You had me puzzled there for a second Shuddhasattva.

No.

savagewind · Aug 11, 2012

It is my opinion that if believers in The Savior really were believers in the Savior they would be in agreement. If Christ's followers were in agreement (for two thousand years) they would by now have supplied convincing evidence for The Way the Truth and so the Life. But it is too obvious that they have not.

James 1:27

religion pure and undefiled with the God and Father is this, to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation -- unspotted to keep himself from the world.

To look after means to relieve. Is that not so? Have they been relieved as a group? Absolutely not. So then I have to conclude that whatever Christianity has become it isn't right.

Two thousand years is enough imo.

Revelation 2:5,16,21,22,23 3:2, 16

To look after widows and orphans came to mean to each. I believe it was suppose to mean by overturning strongly entrenched things the nations would be baptized in love and THEY would do it. 2Corinthians 10:4 and Matthew 28:19 It meant go therefore BE disciples and the nations will be baptized.

So now Christ The Son is being blamed for the antichrist's antics. 1 John 2:18
"Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time"

savagewind · Aug 11, 2012

To know Christ fails is to cause glee in some people. They're not realizing that Christ's failure (Mathew 27:46) has caused all the tribulation, does not matter to them. Being right is what matters. If you are looking for your Antichrist look to those who feel satisfaction at the failure of Christ's disciple.

Matthew 25:31-46

Christ is still glorious forever (Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will be NO MEANS pass away) It is Christ's followers who failed.

You see me hated by both sides? Now you know why.

savagewind · Aug 11, 2012

Offended? I'm sorry. I don't mean hate as in kill. I mean hate as in Who? Never heard of her, don't want to. OK?

jaareshiah · Aug 14, 2012

Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the "faithful and discreet slave" are ones chosen by Jehovah God for the "heavenly calling".(Heb 3:1) After giving an example of a "householder" watching over his house to avoid anyone breaking into it, Jesus then says: "On this account you too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming."(Matt 24:44)

Who are the ones that are noted for ' keeping on the watch', so as not to be caught off-guard when "the Son of man" comes but wide awake and ever vigilant in doing God's will of providing spiritual food and ensuring that Jesus command of "the good news of the kingdom" is preached "in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before "the end" comes ?

Jesus identifies these ones by asking: "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time ? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings."(Matt 24:45-47)

This composite "slave" consists of the 144,000 (Rev 14:1) who are selected by God as "kings and priests" to make up the "kingdom of God".(Rev 5:9, 10) Of this number though, only certain ones provide spiritual food for "the domestics" or individual members of the "slave" class.(Matt 24:45b)

This is the same as in the 1st century, for only the apostles and a few "older men" provided spiritual food for all the congregations, as when the issue of circumcision arose in 49 C.E.(Acts 15), though all were selected as "kings and priests".(1 Cor 4:8)

Rocky S · Aug 16, 2012

savagewind said:
The Jehovah's Witnesses teach it is their leaders who are personally mentioned at Matthew 24:45.

I wonder if there are other opinions on what is described at Matthew 24:45?

Here is what I think. Some Jehovah's Witnesses that I know mock others who believe "once saved always saved" so it is beyond my ability to understand that they INSIST on continuing to believe a group of men are chosen to be "appointed over all (God's) belongings". How is this doctrine they believe once true, always true?

Matthew 24:48 warns that the slave might abandon his commission.

How is it in harmony with John 15:4-6?

4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned

How is anyone convinced that the men who lead the Jehovah's Witnesses are abiding still in Christ? If works is the answer please explain other works of faith in Christ NOT related to the Watchtower. How are they being accomplished?

Please and thank you.

Hi savagewind, In verses 44-51; This teaching is a prophetic parable and a over all teaching on being a faithful servant at the coming of Jesus, who look to his coming when the catching up or the rapture of the church takes place. And, also it is a stern warning of eternal punishment for the unfaithful(v51). Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are all about this subject. Reading both chapters will bring clarity. As far as the Jehovah Witnesses view, that sounds foreign to me, nowhere in these two chapters is that stated or even hinted at. This parable is directed to all believers..

savagewind · Aug 17, 2012

Thank you Rocky S

Yes Matthew 24:45 is directed to all believers.

It sounds foreign to you what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe? How so? The fact that they are standing as your opponent should be compelling reason to learn what they are saying, no?

They teach the Son of God will come against You, and soon, to eliminate you because you stand in the way of paradise earth.

How did they GET that way? They believed at the turn of the century that Matthew 24:45 meant "a prophetic parable and an overall teaching on being a faithful servant at the coming of Jesus, who look to his coming when"...it was God's time to set up His Kingdom on Earth. They do not talk about rapture. They want the earth.

jaareshiah · Sep 10, 2012

Yes, the "faithful and discreet slave " that Jesus spoke at Matthew 24:45-51 (and Luke 12:41-48), is prophetic of a group of individuals assigned by Jesus to provide "their measure of food supplies at the proper time" for his "body of attendants ".

It need be grasped that Jesus gave this illustration just three days before his death as part of the composite "sign" of his (invisible ) "presence".(Matt 24:3, 37-39) Hence, this "faithful and discreet slave" ("faithful steward" at Luke 12:42, meaning literally a house manager or administrator) would supply the "master's (Jesus Christ) " "body of attendants" with spiritual food (though he is himself a servant), helping to unveil or unlock such truths as the "mysteries of the kingdom".(Matt 13:11, King James Bible) Such a position of being a house manager or administrator was often filled in ancient times by a faithful slave, such as Abraham's slave Eliezer.(Gen 15:2; 24:2)

In Jesus illustration the steward is first assigned only to the supervision and timely dispensation of the food supplies to the masters body of attendants, or servants, and later, because of his faithful and discreet handling of this ministry, his assignment is widened out to embrace supervision of all the masters holdings.

Regarding the identification of the master (Greek, ky´ri·os, also rendered lord), Jesus had already shown that he himself occupied such a position toward his disciples, and they addressed him as such on occasion. (Matt 10:24, 25; 18:21; 24:42; John 13:6, 13) The question remains concerning the application of the figure of the faithful and discreet slave, or steward, and what his dispensing food to the domestics represents.

Commentators often view this as a general exhortation to any and all who have individual positions of responsibility in the Christian congregation. The requirement of faithfulness in discharging responsibility clearly applies to all such. (Compare Mt 25:14-30; Titus 1:7-9.) Yet, the impossibility of each and every one of these individuals being placed over all his masters belongings at the same time, the time of the masters arrival, is obvious.

This, however, does not require that the slave prefigure only one particular person who would be so privileged. The Scriptures contain examples of the use of a singular noun to refer to a collective group, as when Jehovah God addressed the collective group of the Israelite nation and told them: You are my witnesses [plural], . . . even my servant [singular] whom I have chosen. (Isa 43:10)

Similarly, the figure of the unfaithful evil slave could apply to a collective group in the same way that the antichrist is shown to be a class made up of individual antichrists, though a group.(1 John 2:18; 2 John 7)

Those forming the Christian congregation ("congregation", Greek ekklesia, meaning "called out") are referred to by the apostle Paul as members of the household of God (Eph 2:19; 1Tim 3:15), and Paul also shows that faithful stewardship among such household members involved the dispensing of spiritual truths on which those becoming believers would feed. (1Cor 3:2, 5; 4:1, 2; compare Mt 4:4, where Jesus, quoting from Deut 8:3, said that "man must live....on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah's mouth".)

Whereas this was a prime responsibility of those appointed as shepherds of the flock (1 Pet 5:1-3), the apostle Peter shows that such stewardship of the divine truths was actually committed to all the chosen ones, all the spirit-anointed ones, of the Christian congregation. (1Pet 1:1, 2; 4:10, 11)

Thus the entire anointed Christian congregation was to serve in a united stewardship, dispensing such truths. At the same time the individual members making up such composite body, or the domestics making up the house of God (Matt 24:45; Heb 3:6; Eph 2:19), would also be recipients of the food dispensed, spiritually feeding each other. (Heb 5:11-14; compare 1Cor 12:12, 19-27.) Expanded responsibility would result from faithfulness maintained until the masters promised arrival.(Matt 24:46, 47; Luke 12:43, 44)

jtartar · Sep 25, 2012

savagewind said:
The Jehovah's Witnesses teach it is their leaders who are personally mentioned at Matthew 24:45.

I wonder if there are other opinions on what is described at Matthew 24:45?

Here is what I think. Some Jehovah's Witnesses that I know mock others who believe "once saved always saved" so it is beyond my ability to understand that they INSIST on continuing to believe a group of men are chosen to be "appointed over all (God's) belongings". How is this doctrine they believe once true, always true?

Matthew 24:48 warns that the slave might abandon his commission.

How is it in harmony with John 15:4-6?

4Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned

How is anyone convinced that the men who lead the Jehovah's Witnesses are abiding still in Christ? If works is the answer please explain other works of faith in Christ NOT related to the Watchtower. How are they being accomplished?

Please and thank you.

savagewind,
All religions that claim to be Christian will have a group of people who they think is the Faithful Slave. One problem, as for me is the fact; Jesus has not COME yet so he has not given anyone ALL his belongings. According to what the scriptures say, all the belongings is, in fact, The Inheritance they will receive when Jesus arrives. The Holy Scriptures make it clear that Jesus COMES ONE time, at the end of this system, and during that time, called the Parousia, or presence, Jesus will fulfill all the scriptures that he is going to fulfill.
As for John 15:4-6, most religions believe they are that vine, it they even now that much about the Bible. Most religions called Christendom also believe they have something to do with the olive trees mentioned at Romans chapter 11.
The problem with all religions claiming to the THE ONE, is are they fulfilling all the things that the ONE is supposed to do???
At Eph 4:3-6, the Bible tells us that there is ONE faith, ONE hope, ONE Baptism, ONE LORD, ONE GOD. It is up to everyone to search for that ONE Faith mentioned. It certainly cannot be all the religions claiming to be Christian, because many teach opposit doctrines to the others.
What every pperson must do is study your Bible and pray to God for help in understanding the Holy Scriptures. It takes God's spirit to undertstand, 1Cor 2:6-15.

jaareshiah · Oct 18, 2012

jtartar said:
savagewind,
All religions that claim to be Christian will have a group of people who they think is the Faithful Slave. One problem, as for me is the fact; Jesus has not COME yet so he has not given anyone ALL his belongings. According to what the scriptures say, all the belongings is, in fact, The Inheritance they will receive when Jesus arrives. The Holy Scriptures make it clear that Jesus COMES ONE time, at the end of this system, and during that time, called the Parousia, or presence, Jesus will fulfill all the scriptures that he is going to fulfill.
As for John 15:4-6, most religions believe they are that vine, it they even now that much about the Bible. Most religions called Christendom also believe they have something to do with the olive trees mentioned at Romans chapter 11.
The problem with all religions claiming to the THE ONE, is are they fulfilling all the things that the ONE is supposed to do???
At Eph 4:3-6, the Bible tells us that there is ONE faith, ONE hope, ONE Baptism, ONE LORD, ONE GOD. It is up to everyone to search for that ONE Faith mentioned. It certainly cannot be all the religions claiming to be Christian, because many teach opposit doctrines to the others.
What every pperson must do is study your Bible and pray to God for help in understanding the Holy Scriptures. It takes God's spirit to undertstand, 1Cor 2:6-15.

When Jesus said that he would "appoint him (the faithful and discreet slave) over all his belongings" at Matthew 24:47, he was not necessarily referring to material possessions, for when Jesus was "given a crown" of kingly authority in 1914 by his heavenly Father, Jehovah (Rev 6:2), he received ' nations as his inheritance and the ends of the earth as his own possession'.(Ps 2:8) Now placed before him was the responsibility to see that the "good news of the kingdom" be preached earth wide, and of which he appointed a "faithful and discreet slave" to do this global work, ' appointing him over all his belongings'.

The "belongings" that Jesus was referring to is kingdom interests, the responsibility of seeing that the "good news of the kingdom" is preached throughout the earth "as a witness to all the nations" before "the end" comes. (Matt 24:14) Thus, from his installation as king of God's kingdom, he especially has been overseeing the global campaign of the "good news" being preached during his invisible "presence".(Matt 24:3)

The Bible stipulates that there would be two "comings", not one. For example, at Acts 1, as Jesus was ascending to heaven, two angels told the gathered faithful disciples: "Men of Gal´i·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky ? This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky will come (Greek eleusetai, meaning "to come", in the future tense) thus in the same manner ("manner", Greek tropon, meaning "manner, way, fashion, as, even as, like as", Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, G5158, pg 631) as you have beheld him going into the sky.(Acts 1:11)

Only his faithful disciples saw him leave the earth, and few at that, becoming invisible, for "a cloud ("cloud" denoting invisibility, see Dan 7:13) caught him up from their vision"(Acts 1:9), so likewise would only his loyal disciples discern his invisible return, for he would "come thus in the same manner as you beheld going into the sky". Only his faithful anointed disciples discerned his invisible royal return with kingdom power in 1914.(Luke 19:12)

Yet, at Matthew 24, Jesus said that "immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."(Matt 24:29, 30)

Hence, following the completion of the global preaching work to God's satisfaction by the "faithful and discreet slave" class, a "great tribulation" would now begin (Matt 24:15-22), in which in its final phase, the world will discern the "Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory", though not visibly seeing him, but the cataclysmic events that begin to unfold will be evidence of his "coming". At this time, the "war of the great day of God the Almighty", Armageddon, has begun.(Rev 16:14, 16)

savagewind · Oct 18, 2012

Thank you jaareshiah . That is Jehovah's Witness rhetoric. Did you know that the leaders of the Watchtower Organization sent a letter to Hitler before the pogrom? Sometimes I wonder if Hitler might not have been as evil if someone had not persuaded by rhetoric that he might not suffer in hell. Now I realize the letter was about the society's brothers. But might have the religion kept a low profile, maybe when the extreme violence started Hitler and his pack might have been too busy drinking blood to investigate what they teach? We will never know, will we?

Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?

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