finaly , some one agree with me
i believe that provocation lead sometimes to voilence .
for voilence protestes against mockery/lying film , most of the muslims deny it .
becaue it's not teaching of Islam .
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Are you with UN "global" law prohibition the provocation "mock/insult/lie", about all religions ?
- Thread starter Godobeyer
- Start date
there is different between misunderstanding and lying .
it's could be also the different angle value "seeing different to something/issue" .
the lying bad moral human act ,for my opinion only the lairs which considerate it as "right" .
the lying is a kind of provocation , NOT critic
this thread show me a big contradiction .
how the people considerate the provocation stupid act.
and ban the provocation is stupid act too !!!?
is this make a sense ?
is the provocation is evil act , is not suppose to be ban/stop ?
how the people considerate the provocation stupid act.
and ban the provocation is stupid act too !!!?
is this make a sense ?
is the provocation is evil act , is not suppose to be ban/stop ?
Draka
Wonder Woman
Just what would be a lie or "provocation" to you then anyway Godobeyer? What do you think it is that is being said that people are wanting to stop being said? Because I think I just gave a couple examples of things that plenty of Muslims tend to take offense to that they say are lies.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
You don't seem to understand the difference between disagreeing with something and making that thing unlawful. As far as I am concerned, believing that gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry is flat-out wrong. However, that does not mean that I think such beliefs themselves should be illegal
Do you seriously not understand what "freedom of speech" means? It means you should be free to possess and express your views, regardless of the popular (or otherwise) opinions of them. If you don't like that, too bad. The right for everyone to express their views - no matter how repugnant - vastly outweighs your desire to not have your beliefs portrayed negatively. If your beliefs are strong, and you are confident enough, you shouldn't have to outlaw people vilifying them.
edited:
the lie is give fake info .
for the poll , i can not believe would a muslim vote against the law .
"that's challenge "
believe me ,it's not because of mockery film ,it is because the teaching of Islam .
in Islam "the provocation" and "lie" are forbiden , if a muslim lie , he is sinner .
then if you find a muslim lie , just face it .
the muslim should not lie , but i believe the muslims are not angels
the lair is lair, what ever his religion ,even he is a muslim.
the critic is other case , and it's different than lying .
the problem is , that the voter considerate the lie as freedom of speech , that why every muslims (not just me ) disgree.
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AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
I think you are confused about what a 'lie' really is. You can't understand this freespeech issue until you first try to understand 'lying'.
Would you like to discuss it?
as i see free speech value in the west is different than muslim world .
yeah , discuss it , and show me how why you considerate the "lie" as freedom of speech or critic ?
jazzymom
Just Jewish
What I see is the majority see that it is a matter of freedom of speech. I would suspect that most live in societies where there are a variety of opinions and views and things that we do or don't agree with.
We live in a society where we are surrounded with views and speech we agree with or don't agree with.
The freedom to state what we think regardless of whether others agree or not means we have freedom. That is how a society with diversity works.
The UN does not have a right to decide for the world to make a law that bans provocations because what is a provocation to one group is not to another.
SeekersGuidance - Is It True That Someone Threw Trash on the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be Upon Him)? - Answers
The prophet was insulted in his lifetime and did not behave in the ways that Muslims now are reacting to insult. If he was able to behave non violently then maybe Muslims should ask themselves what would Muhammad do?
Draka
Wonder Woman
Okay, you edited. Did you give an example or not? Would you say calling Muhammed a pedophile is a lie or not? Would that be giving "fake info" or giving "provocation"? If someone truly feels that way are they really lying? If someone believes what they are saying, if someone has an unfavorable impression or interpretation of a religion and they voice it, do you really think it appropriate to say they are breaking a law?
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
So? Last time I checked Islam wasnt the "state-"religion of the world. Its the religion of the muslim world.
So it pretty much doesnt matter what you people believe.
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as a lie. Not in the same way as there is an Eiffel Tower.
To claim that I am lying is the same as to claim that I am ugly. It is only someone's personal opinion that I am ugly. And it is only someone's personal opinion that I am lying.
This is so in virtually all cases. In the physical world, we can sometimes have an objective-looking lie. Maybe I stole the cookies and ate them, but I insist that I did not steal the cookies. That is a lie which you could perhaps claim is a 'real lie', but only if you saw me steal the cookies. Even then, you might have hallucinated it.
But very few lies are like that. Let's talk about historical truth. If I say that Jesus never existed, is that a lie? No. Of course not. Maybe Jesus never existed. How can anyone know? Anyway, it's just my personal opinion. Do you want the governmnet to arrest me if my personal opinion about Jesus is different from the majority opinion?
Let's say that someone claims Muhammed had sex with a young girl. Is that a lie? Well, how can we know? We were not there watching Muhammed his entire life, so we can't know if it's a lie. Anyway, it still would not be a lie if that person believed it to be true. In that case, it would just be a mistake.
Do you want a law which prevents people from making mistakes when they talk about history?
Let me stop here -- in case you have comments or questions.
gnostic
The Lost One
No, the people of those countries who actually put such proposal at the UN.godobeyer said:
Such law or proposal of the law, and the people who want to put such in place, have a lot more in common with the Nazi ideology or that of the Taliban ideology, or those of more recent tyrannical dictators, trying to control people's thought and opinion.
You already have oppressive Muslim leaders (dictators) in countries, who use religion as excuse to oppress people, both Muslim and non-Muslim citizens. It is already bad enough that countries with dictatorship or communism, controlling the media or the communities, now you favor the UN passing such oppressive law?
What will be next law in the UN? Will they want to control what people wear too? Will they want girls be excluded from schools, like the way Talibans do?
Now, you have countries that want to oppress the entire world with global law, to suppress freedom of speech. Those countries and their leaders can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.
edited is allowed , anything , i add something , not delete
some hadiths said ,he married Aisha at age 12 , my grandmother married at age 13 , my mother born me at age 15 .
i had picture my mother , she war mere at age 15 .
that's why i experience it , and i see no pedophile . and it's not lie story that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) married Aisha at young age in that time , but it's not mean forcely it's pedophile .
any way she was happy in that marriage , she was the main source of many Hadiths , for my opinion God put her to deliver the message of the Prophet to the next generation .
gnostic
of course the muslims are human not angels , and all we make errors,and if a muslim lie , he is sinner .
if you don't believe in my beliefs,that don't not mean that i am lying , that's called different faiths .
but if someone post fake info about my or your beliefs ,that's mean he is lying . i am talking about some know the truth ,but he intentionaly lying , because "hate".
sorry for poll options , i just ignore that there is a kind of beliefs are not (non-religions ,and religions)
becuse you disbelieve in it , we muslims,we believe it's happened . real not fable ...etc .
do you have an life experience that a Muslim lied about Prophet or God ?
of course the muslims are human not angels , and all we make errors,and if a muslim lie , he is sinner .
if you don't believe in my beliefs,that don't not mean that i am lying , that's called different faiths .
but if someone post fake info about my or your beliefs ,that's mean he is lying . i am talking about some know the truth ,but he intentionaly lying , because "hate".
sorry for poll options , i just ignore that there is a kind of beliefs are not (non-religions ,and religions)
AmbiguousGuy
i don't know any muslim convert to atheist in my country .
but how about the history of the western , did not they enforece their civilisation and "democraty" by the plans and bombs ?
anyway, the christians also colonised whole the world by sword then guns, only the history judge who was worst .
i remember in the election a scular woman talk in TV ,said she want equal with man in epous , the woman should marry more than man , as the man could marry more than one .
but the law here is correpsond the law of religion , which mean it's not allow to a woman to marry more than one .
99% muslims in Algeria , we are free to talk and critic our country or other countries ,the limite is beliefs of religion "sunni" beliefs .
you are so rich because your free of speech !!! what about me , i had free of speech ,why i am not so rich !!!
should i misrespect my religion or other religion to become rich ?
i am talking in majority of muslims countries , and there is exceptions .
i don't know any muslim convert to atheist in my country .
ah , you mean that because non-muslims believe that islam expansion by sword , they are free to lie about it , because they hate islamic colonisation in spain ?
but how about the history of the western , did not they enforece their civilisation and "democraty" by the plans and bombs ?
anyway, the christians also colonised whole the world by sword then guns, only the history judge who was worst .
I am free in my country Algeria, to critic anything , but my freedom is responsible and correspond religion , the sculars are free to talk but with reponsiblity .
i remember in the election a scular woman talk in TV ,said she want equal with man in epous , the woman should marry more than man , as the man could marry more than one .
but the law here is correpsond the law of religion , which mean it's not allow to a woman to marry more than one .
99% muslims in Algeria , we are free to talk and critic our country or other countries ,the limite is beliefs of religion "sunni" beliefs .
you are so rich because your free of speech !!! what about me , i had free of speech ,why i am not so rich !!!
should i misrespect my religion or other religion to become rich ?
What happens if someone becomes an atheist in your country?
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
They are there, among you. They are just afraid to admit what they really believe. They only pretend to be good Muslims.
There are also homosexuals in all Muslim countries, but they live in their closets.
You are not understanding me. I'm not talking about expansion. I'm talking about Muslim governments using the sword against their own people. Heresy laws. Laws against insulting the prophet.
In other words... laws against any thinking which offends the government.
So someone can go on TV and preach that Mohammed wasn't really a prophet of God? You can say that Mohammed was a fake, just pretending to speak to God?
I have never heard of that happening in a Muslim country.
So you can debate politics but you can't debate religion? I could not sit in a coffeshop and argue that Mohammed was a false prophet and that the Quran is a false holy book?
Yes. It is definitely one reason for our economic success. If people are not free to talk and think, society can't flourish economically.
I don't think you have freedom of speech as we understand it in the west, but maybe I'm wrong.
That's for you to decide. I'm only saying that countries cannot become rich so long as thought and speech are repressed.
[Edit: Unless they are sitting on top of a huge oil reserve, of course. If Saudi Arabia didn't have oil, it would be as impoverished as other repressive countries, I think.]
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Rakhel
Well-Known Member
Silly DS. You know that would never happen in a Muslim country.
Photonic
Ad astra!
AmbiguousGuy
i am talking in majority of muslims countries , and there is exceptions .
i don't know any muslim convert to atheist in my country .
ah , you mean that because non-muslims believe that islam expansion by sword , they are free to lie about it , because they hate islamic colonisation in spain ?
but how about the history of the western , did not they enforece their civilisation and "democraty" by the plans and bombs ?
anyway, the christians also colonised whole the world by sword then guns, only the history judge who was worst .
I am free in my country Algeria, to critic anything , but my freedom is responsible and correspond religion , the sculars are free to talk but with reponsiblity .
i remember in the election a scular woman talk in TV ,said she want equal with man in epous , the woman should marry more than man , as the man could marry more than one .
but the law here is correpsond the law of religion , which mean it's not allow to a woman to marry more than one .
99% muslims in Algeria , we are free to talk and critic our country or other countries ,the limite is beliefs of religion "sunni" beliefs .
you are so rich because your free of speech !!! what about me , i had free of speech ,why i am not so rich !!!
should i misrespect my religion or other religion to become rich ?
So you're saying two wrongs make a right.