Neurosurgeon's Seven Day Near Death Experience

Heathen Hammer · Oct 12, 2012

George-ananda said:
Subjects don't even have 'identical' experiences to all kind of physical events let alone dieing.

Except in the case of death and the afterlife if one specific religion were the only valid one

No, experiencers have been of all kind including those with no afterlife belief. And the lack of particularly partisan religious symbols has been noted often by NDE researchers. The consensus is the afterlife is concerned with Love and not religion.

What consensus is that?

I'm sure you have no evidence that it was an hallucination. And I think Veridical NDE's have pretty much ruled out the simple theories.

How would you expect me to personally have evidence of it? Don't use ridiculous false requirements. You don't have proof it wasn't an hallucination. But.. why would you?

I'm of Hindu thought and don't see any partisan Christian bias in his report. Why wasn't Jesus or some other symbology the center of his experience?

"Heaven" is symbology; his emphasis on his own personal Christianity is confirmation as to what the symbol means. Pretty obvious.

Heathen Hammer · Oct 12, 2012

George-ananda said:
No, this does not seem correct to me. He clearly states that he was by no means a religious person. He describes as do the others a realm where LOVE is what matters not religion.

Love is not the cornerstone of all religions nor of their ideas of the afterlife.

apophenia · Oct 12, 2012

Leonardo said:
Sounds more like a naturally induced DMT trip...

No, definitely more ketamine I would say. Ketamine shuts down just about everything but the limbic system .

In clinical research (on people not undergoing surgery), 80% of people report heavenly experiences, and contact with higher intelligence in some form (angels, god or aliens) - all without activity of most of the brain !

apophenia · Oct 12, 2012

So I guess there are theists, atheists, and anaesthetists

mycorrhiza · Oct 12, 2012

George-ananda said:
I would refer you to the voluminous research done by NDE scientists. For example, the ability to describe events from a perspective outside of their body (not to mention the fact that there was no measureable brain activity at the time and they were noting curious minute details of people and their behaviour and equipment at the scene). If these curious aspects of the NDE did not occur quite frequently then I don't think the whole field of NDE research would of had its impetus or we'd be even talking about it now.

The problem is that there is no evidence. That people claim it happened isn't really enough. There never seems to be any stories where the NDE/OBE experience leads to the persons seeing objects they could never have seen, like a little message hidden behind a shelf or something (which IIRC some operation room has, just in case). It's always very general things or things they could easily see either when they enter the room or when they wake up.

Photonic · Oct 12, 2012

George-ananda said:
No, this does not seem correct to me. He clearly states that he was by no means a religious person. He describes as do the others a realm where LOVE is what matters not religion.

Don't know if you have noticed, but religious people have this weird tendency to claim they were part of the other side to garnish fake respect for their argument.

George-ananda · Oct 12, 2012

Heathen Hammer said:
Except in the case of death and the afterlife if one specific religion were the only valid one

For once we agree on something. The NDE argues strongly against the idea that one specific religion is the only valid one. I think 'narrow religionists' are on the decline due to education and exposure to more worldy views.

Heathen Hammer said:
What consensus is that?

The consensus of experiencers, researchers and students of the NDE phenomena.

Heathen Hammer said:
How would you expect me to personally have evidence of it? Don't use ridiculous false requirements. You don't have proof it wasn't an hallucination. But.. why would you?

Ahh, good point. You admit the 'hallucination' claim should not have been made as a statement of fact but as a (biased?/unbiased?) opinion. So whenever I make a claim for a supernatural explanation and my RF opponents scream 'Prove It', 'where's the peer-reviewed papers', the 'medical documentation', the 'repeatable controlled experiments', etc......I'll remember the 'ridiculous false requirements' attack on me. Listen people, I never make the claim my beliefs are PROVEN in the strict sense of the word, all I say is my explanation is by far the most reasonable explanation in my judgement.

Heathen Hammer said:
"Heaven" is symbology; his emphasis on his own personal Christianity is confirmation as to what the symbol means. Pretty obvious.

I can't agree with this argument. 'Heaven' is not a term the experiencers use. Unfortunately in English and western culture we have a shortage of commonly used and agree-upon words to describe non-physical realms. So, the Newsweek cover writer, and others use the word 'Heaven'. In my terminology it is an astral plane that these experiencers are describing.

George-ananda · Oct 12, 2012

Heathen Hammer said:
Love is not the cornerstone of all religions nor of their ideas of the afterlife.

I must disagree with this. You're viewing all religionists as 'narrow religionists'. They are the shrinking minority of society and they are of no interest to me intellectually. Broad religionists have LOVE in their cornerstone.

George-ananda · Oct 12, 2012

mycorrhiza said:
The problem is that there is no evidence. That people claim it happened isn't really enough.

Enough for what? If you mean strict PROOF, then I agree with you. What I'm saying is that continuation of consciousness at death is the most reasonable conclusion when all the evidence from the NDE (and other spiritual and paranormal fields) are weighed open-mindedly. You may choose to conclude the brain is the begin-all and end-all of consciousness when looking at the same NDE and other evidence. In that case we just have a strong difference of opinion.

mycorrhiza said:
There never seems to be any stories where the NDE/OBE experience leads to the persons seeing objects they could never have seen, like a little message hidden behind a shelf or something (which IIRC some operation room has, just in case). It's always very general things or things they could easily see either when they enter the room or when they wake up.

Some points of disagreement:

1)One of the hallmarks of the NDE experience is a view of things from an outside the body perspective. From there they are a passive observer and one of the many common features of the NDE is their ability to give a description of their recovery scene from an above the body view. For example noticing some odd footware of a doctor or describing some odd-looking equipment used in the resuscitation and then removed. All while there was no measurable brain activity during this period.

2)Your statement disregards the numerous cases of patients knowing events in other areas of the hospital where they've never been but claim to have been when in a floating state.

3)When they are passively floating above their bodies, they have no desire/reason to go hunting for 'little messages hidden behind a shelf or something'. They are passive observers and just note what comes into their perception.

George-ananda · Oct 12, 2012

Photonic said:
Don't know if you have noticed, but religious people have this weird tendency to claim they were part of the other side to garnish fake respect for their argument.

I have looked for but not noticed what you state here. For example, the doctor in the OP was a non-religious Christian who thought the after-life was doubtful. He clearly stated that he was by no means a religious person or gave it much thought. One feature of the NDE noted by researchers is that many atheists have had this experience and maintain its validity.

apophenia · Oct 12, 2012

George-ananda said:
I have looked for but not noticed what you state here. For example, the doctor in the OP was a non-religious Christian who thought the after-life was doubtful. He clearly stated that he was by no means a religious person or gave it much thought. One feature of the NDE noted by researchers is that many atheists have had this experience and maintain its validity.

My remark about ketamine is very relevant to this subject, it was not meant as a flippant aside.

I have talked to people about ketamine experiences, and know medical staff who have routinely given it to patients. It is generally not given to adults, because the 'spiritual' or religious aspect of it can cause psychological adjustment problems, especially to people who are otherwise atheist. It is routinely used in surgery on children, who don't feel challenged in this way by the experience.

It is extremely common for people to react to ketamine with statements like " Wow ! You can't die ! ". And as I said earlier, 80% of adults in clinical research on its effects will report heavenly experiences and contact with god, angels etc.

Ketamine is classed as an anaesthetic, and as a dissociative psychedelic. Most all of the phenomena reported about NDEs in SKWIM's checklist earlier are also reported by those who have received doses of ketamine.

Psychedelics mimic naturally occurring neurotransmitters, such as DMT. So ketamine is probably doing the same thing.

It makes no difference whether someone is religious or not. The frontal lobe is shut down, and there is no sense of "I" or time or place in the experience, but patients report being extremely conscious in an entirely different way - akin to the states described in advaita hinduism. Despite the absence of frontal lobe activity, users experience quite rich states, not mere vacuity, and talk of being 'everywhere and everywhen', minus any sense of human personality.

WARNING ... it is very unfortunate that illicit users are not aware of some of the dangers of this substance, and often insufflate (snort) illegally obtained ketamine. If a drop of blood is placed in a strong ketamine solution, it fizzes like adding vinegar to bi-carb. It eats tissue, so must be administered very slowly, which cannot be done with self-administration. So putting a crystal form of it in the sinuses is very foolish, as the outer covering of the brain (the meninges) is accessible via the sinuses.

It is unfortunate that Dr Albert Hoffman's attempts to establish a psychedelic research center were not successful, or we would know much more ...

George-ananda · Oct 12, 2012

Thank you Apophenia for the above very interesting post. I've heard about ketamine and DMT experiences before but not a lot.

If you can shut down the physical brain through chemicals or trauma, consciousness shifts to the higher more real level (per Advaitan teachings).

As for me, I won't try to induce the experience. I'm happy to die the old-fashioned way and then have the experiences.

apophenia · Oct 12, 2012

George-ananda said:
As for me, I won't try to induce the experience. I'm happy to die the old-fashioned way and then have the experiences.

Good thinking.

mycorrhiza · Oct 12, 2012

George-ananda said:
Enough for what? If you mean strict PROOF, then I agree with you. What I'm saying is that continuation of consciousness at death is the most reasonable conclusion when all the evidence from the NDE (and other spiritual and paranormal fields) are weighed open-mindedly. You may choose to conclude the brain is the begin-all and end-all of consciousness when looking at the same NDE and other evidence. In that case we just have a strong difference of opinion.

Anecdotal stories aren't good evidence, no matter how we interpret them. We can't tell anything from their stories as they might as well be lying. So far, there is no scientific evidence to support the existence of paranormal phenomena, which is why they're not regarded as simply normal phenomena

. Sure, NDE exists, but so far the scientific evidence seems to point to physical causes (chemicals being released, etc). I have nothing against people accepting something on faith alone, though, and I do try to view the experiences with an open mind. I'm willing to change my stance if I'm presented with better evidence than stories.

Some points of disagreement:

1)One of the hallmarks of the NDE experience is a view of things from an outside the body perspective. From there they are a passive observer and one of the many common features of the NDE is their ability to give a description of their recovery scene from an above the body view. For example noticing some odd footware of a doctor or describing some odd-looking equipment used in the resuscitation and then removed. All while there was no measurable brain activity during this period.

Aren't doctors supposed to wear standard footwear, maybe covered with some form of protective plastic covers? Most equipment is pretty standard-looking, and once again we have only their stories. They could simply claim that this happened, without any other witnesses that can strengthen that they they knew these things when they awoke and didn't learn them at a later stage or make them up.

2)Your statement disregards the numerous cases of patients knowing events in other areas of the hospital where they've never been but claim to have been when in a floating state.

Once again, we only have stories. There is no way of knowing whether or not these stories are made up, or they learned the details later and their brain incorporated them into their memory of the NDE. Our memory isn't as flawless as we would like it to be, and many of our memories are partially, or fully, made up.

3)When they are passively floating above their bodies, they have no desire/reason to go hunting for 'little messages hidden behind a shelf or something'. They are passive observers and just note what comes into their perception.

If I recall correctly, I've read stories about NDE experiences where they did have control of their astral bodies / souls, so that isn't always the case. If they could actually report things which they had no possibility of experiencing or learning about later in their conscious state, then that might be evidence. Not the strongest, but still better than stories alone.

apophenia · Oct 12, 2012

mycorrhiza said:
Anecdotal stories aren't good evidence, no matter how we interpret them. We can't tell anything from their stories as they might as well be lying....

If I recall correctly, I've read stories about NDE experiences where they did have control of their astral bodies / souls, so that isn't always the case. If they could actually report things which they had no possibility of experiencing or learning about later in their conscious state, then that might be evidence. Not the strongest, but still better than stories alone.

Well, I'm not lying, although I am fully aware that I can't prove that to you, but I have had numerous experiences involving perceptions which cannot be accounted for by normal means. For example, out-of -body experiences where layouts of rooms, and events in them, have been clearly and unambiguously observed.

I once had a friend 'visit' me in a nurse's dorm, and the next day she provided me with a detailed drawing of my room ( she had never been near the building), and a description of where I was sitting and what I was doing at the time ( I was playing my sitar and thinking of her).

She also confidently asserted on another occasion that while 200 kilometres away she could hear my playing echoing around the valley where she was walking. I was at the time giving an impromptu concert for friends who were not associates of the woman who heard my playing - she returned to the city and immediately recounted the experience to me.

These events did not involve any drugs BTW.

I could give you a dozen such accounts, including a time when I left my body and went to my home where I saw my partner cheating on me. Very clearly. She admitted that my observation was totally accurate ( and it totally freaked her out ! )

No proof. It seems to me that the degree of connection of some kind has something to do with it, which could explain why it can't be replicated for the sake of proof.

Regards that last point - when my partner was about to become pregnant, a former lover of hers appeared on the scene. He was very jealous, and even threatened me with poisoning. One night I performed a spontaneous ritual, which took some hours, and created an astral ball of lightning which I hurled at him.

The next day he was admitted to hospital, and was very anaemic and passing blood in his urine - doctors could not establish a cause. He remained very ill for 6 weeks, then called me on the phone and invited me to visit. He apologised for his behaviour, and acknowledged that he knew what I had done, he was very humble. ( He was also a practitioner of magic).

I generally don't engage in such behaviour, that was very unusual - but then so was announcing to my partner the very moment she conceived - later confirmed, to her amazement.

I don't give a rat's rectum if anyone believes any of this, I know it is true ( and there is much more).

Skwim · Oct 12, 2012

mycorrhiza said:
Anecdotal stories aren't good evidence, no matter how we interpret them. We can't tell anything from their stories as they might as well be lying. So far, there is no scientific evidence to support the existence of paranormal phenomena, which is why they're not regarded as simply normal phenomena . Sure, NDE exists, but so far the scientific evidence seems to point to physical causes (chemicals being released, etc). I have nothing against people accepting something on faith alone, though, and I do try to view the experiences with an open mind. I'm willing to change my stance if I'm presented with better evidence than stories.

Doubt you'll ever find it; however, the stories are still compelling. Here are three.

In Dr. Michael Sabom's book, Light and Death, he includes the NDE account of a woman named Pam Reynolds who underwent a rare operation to remove a giant basilar artery aneurysm in her brain that seriously threatened her life. The surgical procedure used to remove the aneurysm is known as "hypothermic cardiac arrest" or "standstill." Pam's body temperature was lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing were stopped, her brain waves were flattened, and all the blood was drained from her head. For all practical purposes, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life. But, during the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced a profound NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations of her surgery were later verified to be very accurate. Pam's case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical perception evidence in NDE research because of her ability to describe the unique surgical instruments and procedures used and her ability to describe in detail these events while she was clinically and brain dead. The following is the out-of-body aspect of her NDE in her own words:
_______________________________________________________________
"During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit. He had been found about an hour before in a meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives artificial respiration without intubation, while heart massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we wanted to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the crash car. Meanwhile, we continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his medication. The moment he sees me he says:
"Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are."

"I am very surprised. Then he elucidates:
"Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth."

"I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient's prognosis due to his very poor medical condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. Four weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man." (Dr. Pim Van Lommel)
source
______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________
Maria was a migrant worker who, while visiting friends in Seattle, had a severe heart attack. She was rushed to Harborview Hospital and placed in the coronary care unit. A few days later, she had a cardiac arrest and an unusual out-of-body experience. At one point in this experience, she found herself outside the hospital and spotted a single tennis shoe sitting on the ledge of the north side of the third floor of the building. Maria not only was able to indicate the whereabouts of this oddly situated object, but was able to provide precise details concerning its appearance, such as that its little toe was worn and one of its laces was stuck underneath its heel. Upon hearing Maria's story, Clark, with some considerable degree of skepticism and metaphysical misgiving, went to the location described to see whether any such shoe could be found. Indeed it was, just where and precisely as Maria had described it, except that from the window through which Clark was able to see it, the details of its appearance that Maria had specified could not be discerned. Clark concluded: "The only way she could have had such a perspective was if she had been floating right outside and at very close range to the tennis shoe. I retrieved the shoe and brought it back to Maria; it was very concrete evidence for me.
source

dawny0826 · Oct 13, 2012

I do believe in an afterlife, but, I admit I've never quite known what to make of those who claim to have near death experiences. It's very interesting, particulary since brain activity was measured in this case. He had a positive experience and that's what matters, right?

Heathen Hammer · Oct 15, 2012

George-ananda said:
Ahh, good point. You admit the 'hallucination' claim should not have been made as a statement of fact but as a (biased?/unbiased?) opinion. So whenever I make a claim for a supernatural explanation and my RF opponents scream 'Prove It', 'where's the peer-reviewed papers', the 'medical documentation', the 'repeatable controlled experiments', etc......I'll remember the 'ridiculous false requirements' attack on me. Listen people, I never make the claim my beliefs are PROVEN in the strict sense of the word, all I say is my explanation is by far the most reasonable explanation in my judgement..

No no. You are insisting that I offer some form of evidence that this person was hallucinating other than what he says himself, which shows such; your requirements for such are ridiculous in as much as, what medical record would I personally have access to for this case? What exactly would I need to show other than his own statements to show he was hallucinating?

hallucinations explain the event easily; adding the idea of a supernatural source would, in fact, require further evidence, as it goes beyond one person's dieing vision and posits an entire new facet of reality. And yes, THAT requires evidence.

mycorrhiza · Oct 15, 2012

apophenia said:
Well, I'm not lying, although I am fully aware that I can't prove that to you, but I have had numerous experiences involving perceptions which cannot be accounted for by normal means. For example, out-of -body experiences where layouts of rooms, and events in them, have been clearly and unambiguously observed.

I once had a friend 'visit' me in a nurse's dorm, and the next day she provided me with a detailed drawing of my room ( she had never been near the building), and a description of where I was sitting and what I was doing at the time ( I was playing my sitar and thinking of her).

She also confidently asserted on another occasion that while 200 kilometres away she could hear my playing echoing around the valley where she was walking. I was at the time giving an impromptu concert for friends who were not associates of the woman who heard my playing - she returned to the city and immediately recounted the experience to me.

These events did not involve any drugs BTW.

I could give you a dozen such accounts, including a time when I left my body and went to my home where I saw my partner cheating on me. Very clearly. She admitted that my observation was totally accurate ( and it totally freaked her out ! )

No proof. It seems to me that the degree of connection of some kind has something to do with it, which could explain why it can't be replicated for the sake of proof.

Regards that last point - when my partner was about to become pregnant, a former lover of hers appeared on the scene. He was very jealous, and even threatened me with poisoning. One night I performed a spontaneous ritual, which took some hours, and created an astral ball of lightning which I hurled at him.

The next day he was admitted to hospital, and was very anaemic and passing blood in his urine - doctors could not establish a cause. He remained very ill for 6 weeks, then called me on the phone and invited me to visit. He apologised for his behaviour, and acknowledged that he knew what I had done, he was very humble. ( He was also a practitioner of magic).

I generally don't engage in such behaviour, that was very unusual - but then so was announcing to my partner the very moment she conceived - later confirmed, to her amazement.

I don't give a rat's rectum if anyone believes any of this, I know it is true ( and there is much more).

You're allowed to believe whatever you want, and if the things you wrote here really happened the way they did, then I'm not surprised at all that you're convinced. Personal experience is indeed one of the most convincing things there is and if those things happened to me, I would probably believe the same things you do.

I cannot trust stories alone, since people make all sorts of claims about what they have experienced (most of it probably true, but attributed to the wrong things. So they're probably not lying, just misinterpreting). If someone claims that they saw a fully detailed ghost, it could simply have been a very convincing dream or some form of sleep paralysis. It could have been a ghost, but if there is no extraordinary evidence I will go with the natural explanation rather than the supernatural.

Magic Man · Oct 15, 2012

George-ananda said:
I would refer you to the voluminous research done by NDE scientists. For example, the ability to describe events from a perspective outside of their body (not to mention the fact that there was no measureable brain activity at the time and they were noting curious minute details of people and their behaviour and equipment at the scene).

And as I said, I'm still waiting for an example. Referring me to a big topic like this without giving me specifics doesn't help anything.

If these curious aspects of the NDE did not occur quite frequently then I don't think the whole field of NDE research would of had its impetus or we'd be even talking about it now.

I completely disagree. People want so badly to believe these things are real. Heaven is about the biggest draw there is to religion. Believing that there's something else after we die and that it's perfectly happy is extremely enticing. It doesn't matter whether there's actually good reason to believe this stuff; all that matters is that they can find ways to keep believing it's legitimate even when it's objectively clear that it's not.

So you want me to present the case for Veridical NDE's in a reply post on RF.

No, I just want you to give me a single example. As I said before, we need specifics to talk about here. Otherwise, you're making claims about something that aren't in the least verified.

The problem with that is the evidence is based on the quantity and quality of such stories. I'm assuming by now the educated public have heard typical NDE stories where a person descibes things they could not have reasonably been expected to know.

I'm quite positive most people have heard these stories. The question is whether they're just stories or whether they're credible in any way. That's why we need specifics. You seem intent on believing this stuff, so you just assume these stories are 100% true and say exactly what you want them to.

In the past when this has come up I have cut/pasted a few of the type of stories we've all heard by now. No, I don't expect you to research my old posts on other threads. Rather than re-do the same efforts I'd rather make the point that no stories I cut/paste will satisfy the non-believer. Their come-back is predictably things like what PROOF do I have that the events occured as described, where is my medical documentation, how do we not know this is not a case of confirmation bias, etc., etc., etc.. I don't claim to have PROOF of any of these stories. These events are just things I've read that were written by credible doctors and researchers. I evaluated as much as I can and have determined that the most reasonable conclusion is that things occur (including veridical details) that can not be satisfactorily explained as normal phenomena. I invite the readers to evaluate and come to their own opinion.

In other words, there are no good examples that stand up to the slightest skepticism, and you just choose to believe them anyway. That's fine, but just don't expect everyone else to just assume your conclusion from the lack of evidence available.

Neurosurgeon's Seven Day Near Death Experience

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Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism

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