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Should we tax churches (and other houses of worship)?

9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Storm said:
I think the system we have now is pretty good. I just wish it were better enforced.
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There are two big aspects of the American approach I find troubling:

- exempting churches from normal reporting requirements
- the clergy housing allowance

Apart from those, my impression is that in the US, something like a non-profit social club would get tax breaks like a full-blown charity (IOW, you don't make tax distinctions between "charities" and "non-profit organizations" like we do up here), so if that's the case, then in general, I'm okay with the current system.

... though I'm sure that there are plenty of "churches" that are really for-profit businesses, but hopefully just making churches follow the normal reporting rules would solve that problem.
 
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Wow I did not expect such a large support for taxing. I also agree that we should, I see no reason not too.

Hey, can anyone find stats on just how much we'd make from taxing these religious institutions? I heard it was like $70 billion somewhere, but that was not from a valid source.
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
The Doors of Perception said:
Wow I did not expect such a large support for taxing. I also agree that we should, I see no reason not too.

Hey, can anyone find stats on just how much we'd make from taxing these religious institutions? I heard it was like $70 billion somewhere, but that was not from a valid source.
Click to expand...
OK, here's a reason. For every megachurch and televangelist parasite with enough cash to build a Touchdown Jesus, there are at least a thousand congregations that can barely pay the mortgage if they have a regular space at all. exempting them from taxation allows them to survive, thereby preserving freedom of worship.
 
idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
On one hand I don't want my tithe going to government. On the other hand I don't want my tithe paying for someones new corvette.
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
idav said:
On one hand I don't want my tithe going to government. On the other hand I don't want my tithe paying for someones new corvette.
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Which is why you should be careful about who you write checks to. :p
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Storm said:
OK, here's a reason. For every megachurch and televangelist parasite with enough cash to build a Touchdown Jesus, there are at least a thousand congregations that can barely pay the mortgage if they have a regular space at all. exempting them from taxation allows them to survive, thereby preserving freedom of worship.
Click to expand...

Businesses pay taxes on their net revenue... i.e. their profit. If they're barely making the mortgage, then they wouldn't have any profit, and therefore wouldn't pay any tax.

Also, at the very small end of the scale, some congregations don't need to exist as legal entities at all. For instance, there are some congregations that have no paid ministers and meet in the houses of members. If your church owns no assets and the members just chip in to cover expenses (and if the members are okay with not getting a tax deduction when they do chip in), then it doesn't need to register in any way that the IRS would care about; as far as the law is concerned, it can exist as nothing more than a collection of individuals.
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
"In Ohio churches held $140 million worth of exempt property in 1924 and in 1965 they owned $600 million worth of exempt property. Fifteen years later [1980] that amount had grown to over $1.1 billion."
sourve


"The religiously used real estate of the churches today constitutes a vast domain," Douglas warned " Their assets total over $141 billion and their annual income at least $22 billion. Id., at 232. And the extent to which they are feeding from the public trough in a variety of forms is alarming. Id., c. 10."
source


"States bypass an estimated $26.2 billion per year by not requiring religious institutions to pay property taxes.
U.S. clergy may claim as much as $1.2 billion in tax exemptions annually via the parsonage allowance."
source

cragun-mansion.jpg

​
"The home in the photo (above) is the $1.75 million mansion of the Reverend Randy White, the former head pastor of Without Walls International Church in Tampa, Florida. While some people may be bothered by the fact that there are pastors who live in multimillion dollar homes, this is old news to most. But here is what should bother you about these expensive homes: You are helping to pay for them! You pay for them indirectly, the same way local, state, and federal governments in the United States subsidize religion—to the tune of about $71 billion every year. "
source
​
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
Storm said:
OK, here's a reason. For every megachurch and televangelist parasite with enough cash to build a Touchdown Jesus, there are at least a thousand congregations that can barely pay the mortgage if they have a regular space at all. exempting them from taxation allows them to survive, thereby preserving freedom of worship.
Click to expand...

Perhaps a good solution would be to tax them over a certain amount, like anything over 120k (Variable per state), which should be more than enough to pay for their rent and utilities. If Pastors want to get paid "housing allowances" and generous Corvette-earning wages, it should be after the top gets skimmed. This would make sure that the Megachurches pay their share while the smaller congregations have adequate breathing room.
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Shermana said:
Perhaps a good solution would be to tax them over a certain amount, like anything over 120k (Variable per state), which should be more than enough to pay for their rent and utilities. If Pastors want to get paid "housing allowances" and generous Corvette-earning wages, it should be after the top gets skimmed. This would make sure that the Megachurches pay their share while the smaller congregations have adequate breathing room.
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I could get behind that.
 
Mister Emu

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Churches aren't taxed for good reason.

One of the principles of the founding of this country is that taxation, or the classification of taxable, carries certain privileges. Those privileges are currently denied Churches, again for good reason.

Think to the benefits businesses receive from the government, heck how many people here think that big-business runs the country?

Religion with that access... do you want that?

I've been described as a religious extremist on here before, but that thought scares me.

Religion not being taxed protects the government from Churches as much as, if not more than, benefits the Churches themselves.
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
Mister Emu said:
Churches aren't taxed for good reason.

One of the principles of the founding of this country is that taxation, or the classification of taxable, carries certain privileges. Those privileges are currently denied Churches, again for good reason.
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Taxation confers the privilages of endorsing or opposing political candidates, campaigning for candidates, raising funds for candidates, granting use of a name to support a political candidate, or contributing to political candidates?
Hmmm, that's odd because I know quite a few people who don't pay taxes but still hold the right to these activities.

Think to the benefits businesses receive from the government, heck how many people here think that big-business runs the country?

Religion with that access... do you want that?
Click to expand...
Access to what, the ability to forego paying billions of dollars in property taxes because their property is exempt? Already got that one. :D

Religion not being taxed protects the government from Churches as much as, if not more than, benefits the Churches themselves.
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Well, it's no secret that churches certainly benefit, And a lot! But exactly what threat to the government would arise if churches were to pay taxes? That they might plug one candidate rather than another? That they could contribute some of their money to a campaign? That they may raise funds for their favorite candidate? :eek: Give me a break! :facepalm:
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Mister Emu said:
Churches aren't taxed for good reason.

One of the principles of the founding of this country is that taxation, or the classification of taxable, carries certain privileges. Those privileges are currently denied Churches, again for good reason.
Click to expand...
No, they aren't.

If a church catches fire, the fire department responds. If the river breaches its banks, the Army Corps of Engineers levees protect the churches just like the rest of the town. The employees of churches are entitled to workplace health and safety just like any other employees, and the Department of Labour requires funding to ensure that this happens. If the country were to be attacked, the Armed Forces would protect the whole country, including the churches. Churches have access to public roads, allowing them to attract traffic that creates congestion and delay (and therefore cost) for other road users and is an element of the traffic demand that creates the need for expensive traffic signals, extra lanes, and other aspects of the infrastructure.

Mister Emu said:
Think to the benefits businesses receive from the government, heck how many people here think that big-business runs the country?

Religion with that access... do you want that?
Click to expand...
Yes... imagine what religion could do if it had influence on the government.

Heck... if things get bad enough, you might even have churches claiming diplomatic immunity.

Exactly what shenanigans do you think that taxed churches would engage in that they don't already do?

Mister Emu said:
I've been described as a religious extremist on here before, but that thought scares me.

Religion not being taxed protects the government from Churches as much as, if not more than, benefits the Churches themselves.
Click to expand...
I mentioned this poem in the thread already, but I think it bears another mention, since I think it touches on the sort of strategy you propose: "we have to appease the churches, because if we don't, all hell will break loose!"

Poetry Lovers' Page - Rudyard Kipling: Dane-Geld
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
BTW - as an aside, you might want to ask the residents of the District of Columbia how much influence and representation being taxed buys you.
 
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