Jesus sacrifice and logic

Lady B said:

Dear Fear God and Lover of truth:
If we get right down to it,Fear God, you are correct in all 3 examples. This is indeed what Christians believe and I make no apologies for it. A man must see that it is not his works or his goodness that brings his salvation, but by The sacrifice of Christ on our behalf. We do believe this and will defend it till death, If we are wrong and were deceived by our Holy Scriptures, then may God have mercy on us all.

How did we get here? First and foremost we believe the Bible is the absolute word of God. We do not believe it was ever corrupted or changed or that additions were made. God preserves his word. I would ask you to go to the Koran and find The same premise. I have read for myself wherein it states" God's word cannot be changed by men" does this not apply to all of God's word? If the Koran speaks highly of the Bible as God's word and then says God's word cannot be changed by men. How do you justify this?

The problem between us and other religions is how we view the Bible, does it not? We both sides can give scripture after scripture to support our views, but unless we both agree in the scripture as authentic it is then reduced to a 'he said she said' argument. This is evidence not held up even in man's laws so how can we breech this separation?

I am not saying debates among us are useless, surely they are enlightening. However when we see a wall, such as how we both view Christ and his sacrifice we need to find a solid floor to stand on. My floor is The Bible, yours is the Koran. These floors are not equal or cannot breech the crack between us, in our both eyes, so how can we reach each other? We try to find common ground. Christ is not our common ground unfortunately. The Koran speaks of another Christ, a messenger. My Bible puts him on the right hand of God the father, being one, equal but his own persona.and by him are we saved." I am the way, the truth and the light, no man comes to the father but by me" This is a concept you cannot accept, no matter what evidences we show.the problem does not lie in the interpretations, it lies in the view of the Bible itself and I see no help here. There just is no way to bring our solid foundations together with them being reduced to sand in eachothers eyes.
I am not saying I give up, I will never give up learning and defending my faith, However in this topic of Christ and his sacrifice, my logic and yours will never unite for our very foundations cannot unite unless we both agree in the foundations existence as solid and solidity being God made.
Do we agree in this?

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Hi Lady B,

Thank you for your sincerity and i do agree with you.
that was the title of the thread which was about logic and the sacrifice,but what you said is true regarding faith.:yes:

We don't have problem with the bible and that is the reason that we even use some verses to explain our view on some points by verses from the bible itself.

Let me give you an example which we can proceed further to other verses to be discussed.

What is the purpose for the laws and commandments if we'll not be able to fulfil ?

FearGod said:

Hi Lady B,

Thank you for your sincerity and i do agree with you.
that was the title of the thread which was about logic and the sacrifice,but what you said is true regarding faith.:yes:

We don't have problem with the bible and that is the reason that we even use some verses to explain our view on some points by verses from the bible itself.

Let me give you an example which we can proceed further to other verses to be discussed.

What is the purpose for the laws and commandments if we'll not be able to fulfil ?

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A most excellent question ! And one I believe has not been properly addressed till now, If you will give me some time to study and bring you scriptures that answer this question, I will do, or will do my best. I can offer my opinions but I prefer to give you what I believe is absolute truth. Bare with me please.....

Hi, these are my beliefs:

loverOfTruth said:

So you mean there is a different standard for Justice for us and God ? Very interesting.

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No.

Also, as far as I know, all Jews do not interpret these verses to be about Jesus(pbuh) rather they interpret it to be talking about the Nation of Israel.

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I know, Christians believe it is also about Christ.

Once again that is not God saying - it is Paul saying.

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I believe Hebrews is God inspired.

This does not in any clear fashion say that Jesus, the Son of God - died for our sins. It could mean so many things - all Prophets suffer in the hands of their people. If you read that entire section, you'll notice that they talk about Jesus as Prophet : "About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people." (Luke 24:19) . It is amazing how you ignore the clear unambiguous statements and follow some ambiguous ones to mean what you want.

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The Bible teaches Jesus died for our sins.

Anyway, this is what Muslims believe. "And because of their saying, `We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God'- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not (Jesus, son of Mary). But God raised him (Jesus) up unto Himself. And God is ever All-Powerful, All-Wise" (Al Quran 4:157-158).

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I know. While I respect the Qur'an, I believe the accounts of the Bible as they were eyewitness accounts by people who died because they said Jesus died and rose again.

And the doubt and the conjecture that the Qur'an is talking about is very clear from the contradictions in the Biblical narrative. I will just give a few example here.

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I believe any seeming contradictions have been dealt with many times over, very satisfactorily to any honest student.

Did Jesus bear his own cross?
Yes (John 19:17)
No (Matthew 27:31-32)

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I believe Jesus bore it then Simon the Cyrene bore it after he fell three times.

Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion?
On the cross (Mark 15:33)
In Pilates court (John 19:14)

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Basically John used the Roman time system, Mark used the Jewish.

Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion?

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Yes. Not in that passage, though.

Yes. (Mark 15:34-36)
No. (John 19:28-29)

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Both those verses are statements he made just before he died. He said, I thirst, and he said, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me. Both are true. There are a total of six statements he said on the cross found throughout the Gospels. Each Gospel did not record all six. I believe He was forsaken for us.

I am sure you don't take that literally - do you ? Do you believe his disciples actually ate his flesh and drank his blood ? So metaphorically, it could very well mean that Jesus(pbuh) was just blessing the food for them so they would be healed/purified (like holy water per say). For example, Muslims also believe that on the day of Judgement the righteous would be drinking water (from a special fountain) which the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) will serve with his own hands.

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No. Jesus said to do this in remembrance of him. We eat the bread to remember his body (not bones) broken for us and drink the wine to remember the blood shed for us for our sins.

But nowhere in that passage it talks about Jesus(pbuh). Also, notice that it is in OT. How can you make that stuff up ? Moreover, what if that person didn't believe in the sacrifice of Jesus(pbuh) - so Jesus's penalty wouldn't count for that person anyway and yet it says 'that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them'.

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Its not a prophetic passage about Christ, it is an Old Testament passage. Since the death of the Testator, Jesus, we are in a New Testament (Covenant). His death paid the penalty of sin for all men from all time from Adam to the last person who will ever be born.

You can BELIEVE whatever you want but what I am telling you is - that is not what your scripture says. As it further states : "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? " Ezekiel 18:23

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My scripture says Jesus died for my sins. That is why God can forgive me when I repent. Because the penalty has been paid. When I trusted Christ I did so because I was a hopelessly lost sinner. I turned from sin to Christ.

So God instantly becomes pleased when someone turns from sinful ways to righteousness and He doesn't want death for anyone (including His son - no mention of that as a requirement for his pleasure). If God truly required the penalty of sacrifice, He still wouldn't be pleased with the one who repented no matter how much he repents. He would only be pleased with His Son, in that case since the repenter still remains sinful. All this just doesn't add up.

Peace.

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Peace. I do not wish to argue. These things are what I believe from the Bible. But, yes, I believe God is pleased with his Son which is why he can declare a sinner like me justified. Because I am freely and eternally saved because of Christ's finished work on the cross, I am free to love God without fear and am compelled to live my life in a way that is pleasing to him.

Lady B said:

Dear Fear God and Lover of truth:
If we get right down to it,Fear God, you are correct in all 3 examples. This is indeed what Christians believe and I make no apologies for it. A man must see that it is not his works or his goodness that brings his salvation, but by The sacrifice of Christ on our behalf. We do believe this and will defend it till death, If we are wrong and were deceived by our Holy Scriptures, then may God have mercy on us all.

How did we get here? First and foremost we believe the Bible is the absolute word of God. We do not believe it was ever corrupted or changed or that additions were made. God preserves his word. I would ask you to go to the Koran and find The same premise. I have read for myself wherein it states" God's word cannot be changed by men" does this not apply to all of God's word? If the Koran speaks highly of the Bible as God's word and then says God's word cannot be changed by men. How do you justify this?

The problem between us and other religions is how we view the Bible, does it not? We both sides can give scripture after scripture to support our views, but unless we both agree in the scripture as authentic it is then reduced to a 'he said she said' argument. This is evidence not held up even in man's laws so how can we breech this separation?

I am not saying debates among us are useless, surely they are enlightening. However when we see a wall, such as how we both view Christ and his sacrifice we need to find a solid floor to stand on. My floor is The Bible, yours is the Koran. These floors are not equal or cannot breech the crack between us, in our both eyes, so how can we reach each other? We try to find common ground. Christ is not our common ground unfortunately. The Koran speaks of another Christ, a messenger. My Bible puts him on the right hand of God the father, being one, equal but his own persona.and by him are we saved." I am the way, the truth and the light, no man comes to the father but by me" This is a concept you cannot accept, no matter what evidences we show.the problem does not lie in the interpretations, it lies in the view of the Bible itself and I see no help here. There just is no way to bring our solid foundations together with them being reduced to sand in eachothers eyes.
I am not saying I give up, I will never give up learning and defending my faith, However in this topic of Christ and his sacrifice, my logic and yours will never unite for our very foundations cannot unite unless we both agree in the foundations existence as solid and solidity being God made.
Do we agree in this?

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Hi Lady B,
I believe we are not on the same page as far as what we are debating here. I will try to clarify about what I think you are missing in your observation regarding this.

But before I start, I'll make one thing clear that it is nothing personal. I consider you to be an honorable person and respect you very much. So nothing I say is a personal or vindictive attack or anything like that. It is purely for the purpose of establishing what we agree and disagree as to God's decree is. And then we depart our own ways taking what we see fit. At the end of the day, hopefully, it will be a good learning experience for all.

Now let me start by answering 'If the Koran speaks highly of the Bible as God's word and then says God's word cannot be changed by men. How do you justify this?'

* Qur'an says that God sent the Taurat(Torah) and the Injeel(Gospel) to Moses(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh).
* It also says that in them were guidance - obviously because it was from the same God and ask us to have faith in those messengers and the books that God sent.
* Then it says that people corrupted or did not preserve the books over time. I have written about this to you in detail here (with examples) : http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...139231-i-invite-islam-come-share-their-3.html
Not to mention the contradictions that exist in the Bible. I don't think even Christian scholars would disagree with that.
So I won't repeat why we think the Taurat and Injeel that God sent is not the same Torah and Gospel that we have today.
* So God sent the final revelation 'The Qur'an' to mankind via Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)
* It does not say that God's word cannot be changed. Rather it says: " Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian." (Al Qur'an 15:9)
God only talks about preserving the Qur'an and that is also historically proven. You can read more details about this, if you want, here: Proof of The Preservation of the Quran

* So now you may ask Why did God not preserve the Taurat(Torah) and the Injeel(Gospel) ?

Answer to that question is no different than that of, for example, 'Why did God not save the innocent child from being murdered?' That is, evil committed by sinners is a test for the Righteous and it is all part of the Divine Plan - of course, God knows best.

According to Muslim belief God sent messengers throughout times and all the messengers were sent to a specific people except Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) who was sent to entire mankind and as the final messenger as stated in the Holy Qur'an :
"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing." (Al Qur'an 33:40)
"Verily in this (Qur'an) is a Message for people who would (truly) worship Allah. We sent thee(Muhammad) not, but as a Mercy for all creatures." (Al Qur'an 21:106-107)

Since there would be no more messengers coming after this, of course, the message needed to be preserved till the end of times.

So of course our beliefs are different. So what are we debating then ? Let's see.

If a Muslim quotes something from the Qur'an to prove something about Christianity, it wouldn't hold any value just like if a Christian quotes from the Bible to prove something about Islam. This, I think we can agree upon without any doubt. With all honesty and no offense to anyone, neither of us considers the others' scripture as complete and true word of God, right ? So when I debate a Christian, I do not just say the Bible is corrupted (per the Qur'an) so what it says about Jesus's sacrifice is not true. Rather, we Muslims try to show that there is enough evidence within the existing Bible and Christian sources to prove what the Qur'an claims is true. And for that, it doesn't matter whether I believe the Bible to be corrupt or not. It really doesn't take a genius to figure out that if in once place it says 1 and another place it says 2 - only one of them could be right and both cannot be from the same True God. That's why we show the contradictions, discrepancies, ambiguous vs. clear statements etc. That's what we debate about. Hope this makes sense.

Once I again I mean no offense.
Peace to you.

Lady B said:

A most excellent question ! And one I believe has not been properly addressed till now, If you will give me some time to study and bring you scriptures that answer this question, I will do, or will do my best. I can offer my opinions but I prefer to give you what I believe is absolute truth. Bare with me please.....

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Thanks.

i have no doubt that you'll bring what you believe to be the absolute truth,you have never used twisted ways and i will respect your opinion and thoughts whatever it is.

i am very pleased to have such a healthy discussion which is seldom to happen in a religious debates.

javajo said:

Hi, these are my beliefs:

No.

I know, Christians believe it is also about Christ.

I believe Hebrews is God inspired.

The Bible teaches Jesus died for our sins.

I know. While I respect the Qur'an, I believe the accounts of the Bible as they were eyewitness accounts by people who died because they said Jesus died and rose again.

I believe any seeming contradictions have been dealt with many times over, very satisfactorily to any honest student.

I believe Jesus bore it then Simon the Cyrene bore it after he fell three times.
Basically John used the Roman time system, Mark used the Jewish.

Yes. Not in that passage, though.Both those verses are statements he made just before he died. He said, I thirst, and he said, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me. Both are true. There are a total of six statements he said on the cross found throughout the Gospels. Each Gospel did not record all six. I believe He was forsaken for us.

No. Jesus said to do this in remembrance of him. We eat the bread to remember his body (not bones) broken for us and drink the wine to remember the blood shed for us for our sins.

Its not a prophetic passage about Christ, it is an Old Testament passage. Since the death of the Testator, Jesus, we are in a New Testament (Covenant). His death paid the penalty of sin for all men from all time from Adam to the last person who will ever be born.

My scripture says Jesus died for my sins. That is why God can forgive me when I repent. Because the penalty has been paid. When I trusted Christ I did so because I was a hopelessly lost sinner. I turned from sin to Christ.

Peace. I do not wish to argue. These things are what I believe from the Bible. But, yes, I believe God is pleased with his Son which is why he can declare a sinner like me justified. Because I am freely and eternally saved because of Christ's finished work on the cross, I am free to love God without fear and am compelled to live my life in a way that is pleasing to him.

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Ok, seems like most of your statements are stuff that you believe and not from clear statements in the scripture. I would respect your wish and not argue anymore. However, I would like to ask you one question based on what you stated here : "His death paid the penalty of sin for all men from all time from Adam to the last person who will ever be born."

So there is none who goes to Hell then?

loverOfTruth said:

Hi Lady B,
I believe we are not on the same page as far as what we are debating here. I will try to clarify about what I think you are missing in your observation regarding this.

But before I start, I'll make one thing clear that it is nothing personal. I consider you to be an honorable person and respect you very much. So nothing I say is a personal or vindictive attack or anything like that. It is purely for the purpose of establishing what we agree and disagree as to God's decree is. And then we depart our own ways taking what we see fit. At the end of the day, hopefully, it will be a good learning experience for all.

Now let me start by answering 'If the Koran speaks highly of the Bible as God's word and then says God's word cannot be changed by men. How do you justify this?'

* Qur'an says that God sent the Taurat(Torah) and the Injeel(Gospel) to Moses(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh).
* It also says that in them were guidance - obviously because it was from the same God and ask us to have faith in those messengers and the books that God sent.
* Then it says that people corrupted or did not preserve the books over time. I have written about this to you in detail here (with examples) : http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...139231-i-invite-islam-come-share-their-3.html
Not to mention the contradictions that exist in the Bible. I don't think even Christian scholars would disagree with that.
So I won't repeat why we think the Taurat and Injeel that God sent is not the same Torah and Gospel that we have today.
* So God sent the final revelation 'The Qur'an' to mankind via Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)
* It does not say that God's word cannot be changed. Rather it says: " Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian." (Al Qur'an 15:9)
God only talks about preserving the Qur'an and that is also historically proven. You can read more details about this, if you want, here: Proof of The Preservation of the Quran

* So now you may ask Why did God not preserve the Taurat(Torah) and the Injeel(Gospel) ?

Answer to that question is no different than that of, for example, 'Why did God not save the innocent child from being murdered?' That is, evil committed by sinners is a test for the Righteous and it is all part of the Divine Plan - of course, God knows best.

According to Muslim belief God sent messengers throughout times and all the messengers were sent to a specific people except Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) who was sent to entire mankind and as the final messenger as stated in the Holy Qur'an :
"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing." (Al Qur'an 33:40)
"Verily in this (Qur'an) is a Message for people who would (truly) worship Allah. We sent thee(Muhammad) not, but as a Mercy for all creatures." (Al Qur'an 21:106-107)

Since there would be no more messengers coming after this, of course, the message needed to be preserved till the end of times.

So of course our beliefs are different. So what are we debating then ? Let's see.

If a Muslim quotes something from the Qur'an to prove something about Christianity, it wouldn't hold any value just like if a Christian quotes from the Bible to prove something about Islam. This, I think we can agree upon without any doubt. With all honesty and no offense to anyone, neither of us considers the others' scripture as complete and true word of God, right ? So when I debate a Christian, I do not just say the Bible is corrupted (per the Qur'an) so what it says about Jesus's sacrifice is not true. Rather, we Muslims try to show that there is enough evidence within the existing Bible and Christian sources to prove what the Qur'an claims is true. And for that, it doesn't matter whether I believe the Bible to be corrupt or not. It really doesn't take a genius to figure out that if in once place it says 1 and another place it says 2 - only one of them could be right and both cannot be from the same True God. That's why we show the contradictions, discrepancies, ambiguous vs. clear statements etc. That's what we debate about. Hope this makes sense.

Once I again I mean no offense.
Peace to you.

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No offence taken, you know I respect you and respect your respectfulness.
I understand what your saying and agree in the technique of using the appropriate scriptures to debate the claims therein. However as I was trying to express , we are not in agreement on the contradictions eachother is finding. If in one place it says 1 and another it says 2, but I say this is not the correct interpretation of 1 or 2, then how can we agree? For instance you show me Ezekiel and say this contradicts the need for sacrifice, I do not see this as Ezekiel was specifically speaking of how we must try to adhere to the laws of God and repent by word alone when we break them. He does not contradict the sacrificial penance for breaking said laws, he just doesn't expel them. I do not see how you see he is applying salvation by law and repentance alone.when repentance in the law is through sacrifice.

So my point is and continues to be, two sides cannot agree if our proofs are not deemed authentic. Authentic being God inspired, god breathed and god preserved. If you look over the thread you will see when one gives scripture as support for their claim, another will say, well I don't believe that. Ok why? Because they do not believe the scripture is the very word of god. Now lets say I have a debate with a Christian for the same topic and he replies similar, "I don't believe that" well then we have a problem in possible interpretation but not in authoritative word.

One may see contradictions where I do not, this does not mean they are right and I am wrong, or my claims have no validity to their claims. Let me share an example. When I first approached Islam and the Koran I went at it presupposing it is a cult and It is not the word of god and I with this state of mind found all I needed to find to support my presuppositions. I then deemed myself worthy to debate it and nullify the Korans authenticity. Then a very good Islamic friend of mine said to me, " b, if one wakes in the morning and decides he will have a bad day, most likely he will have a bad day indeed" I took this to heart and made a choice to not view any parts of the Koran or hadiths with my closed mind, or I will surely feed my own arrogance and learn nothing.
I believe we all do this or perhaps it is me alone.....
May God gift us with humbleness and the courage to be wrong yet live to learn from it !

Lady B said:

...we are not in agreement on the contradictions each other is finding..

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And that's exactly why we are debating Aren't we ? If we agree, there's no debate.

Lady B said:

May God gift us with humbleness and the courage to be wrong yet live to learn from it !

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Ameen.

FearGod said:

Sorry my friend,but i didn't understand the logic of your comparison between the lamb for Abraham which had been slaughtered and eaten and Jesus which you also described him as the lamb which have been sucrificed for all humans,would you please clarify,i can't find any similarity between both cases.
We sacrifice lamb and then we enjoy eating it,but are we happy that god killed his son for our sins.
IMHO sacrifice is ordered by god to feed people whom are in need,so in Islam most part of the meat should be given for the poor in order for god to accept the sacrifice.
i don't think god is blood thirsty that he only want us to kill animals,it makes no sense to me,but to sacrifice it for the poor make sense to me.

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Let's remember the meaning of a "sacrifice". If we slaughter an animal with the intentions of eating it or using the best parts; is that really "giving something up" (sacrifice)? aren't we still benefiting from slaughtering the animal?
I'll give you a couple of examples of "sacrifice" from the Old Testament and then we'll see what the New testament says about "sacrifice" so you can see the similarities in the comparisons..
Genesis 4:4
and Abel also gave an offering to the LORD. He killed the first-born lamb from one of his sheep and gave the LORD the best parts of it. The LORD was pleased with Abel and his offering,

20 Noah built an altar where he could offer sacrifices to the Lord. Then he offered on the altar one of each kind of animal and bird that could be used for a sacrifice.[b] 21 The smell of the burning offering pleased God,---Genesis 8

9 Then the Lord told him, “Bring me a three-year-old cow, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a dove, and a young pigeon.” 10 Abram obeyed the Lord. Then he cut[b] the animals in half and laid the two halves of each animal opposite each other on the ground. But he did not cut the doves and pigeons in half. 11 And when birds came down to eat the animals, Abram chased them away.
17 Sometime after sunset, when it was very dark, a smoking cooking pot[e] and a flaming fire went between the two halves of each animal.---Genesis 15

Each family is to pick out a sheep and kill it for Passover. 22 Make a brush from a few small branches of a hyssop plant and dip the brush in the bowl that has the blood of the animal in it. Then brush some of the blood above the door and on the posts at each side of the door of your house. After this, everyone is to stay inside.
23 During that night the Lord will go through the country of Egypt and kill the first-born son in every Egyptian family. He will see where you have put the blood, and he will not come into your house. His angel that brings death will pass over and not kill your first-born sons.---Exodus 12
Leviticus 9:7
Aaron, step up to the altar and offer the sacrifice to please the LORD, then offer the sacrifices for the forgiveness of your sins and for the sins of the people, just as the LORD has commanded.
Leviticus 6:30
None of the meat may be eaten from the sacrifices for sin that require blood to be brought into the sacred tent. These sacrifices must be completely burned.
Numbers 18:32
You won’t be punished for eating it, as long as you have already offered the best parts to me. The gifts and sacrifices brought by the people must remain sacred, and if you eat any part of them before they are offered to me, you will be put to death.
Numbers 29:11
A goat must also be sacrificed for the sins of the people. You will offer these sacrifices in addition to the sacrifice to ask forgiveness and the regular daily sacrifices.
Deuteronomy 12:26-27
All sacrifices and offerings to the LORD must be taken to the place where he chooses to be worshiped. If you offer a sacrifice to please the LORD, all of its meat must be burned on the altar. You can eat the meat from certain kinds of sacrifices, but you must always pour out the animal’s blood on the altar.
1 Samuel 2:28-29
Out of all the tribes of Israel, I chose your family to be my priests. I wanted them to offer sacrifices and burn incense to me and to find out from me what I want my people to do. I commanded everyone to bring their sacrifices here where I live, and I allowed you and your family to keep those that were not offered to me on the altar. But you honor your sons instead of me! You don’t respect the sacrifices and offerings that are brought to me, and you’ve all gotten fat from eating the best parts.
2 Chronicles 29:22
The priests killed the bulls, the rams, and the lambs, then splattered the blood on the altar.
2 Chronicles 29:24
The priests then killed the goats and splattered the blood on the altar as a sacrifice to take away the sins of everyone in Israel, because Hezekiah had commanded that these sacrifices be made for all the people of Israel.
2 Chronicles 30:18-19
Most of the people that came from Ephraim, West Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun had not made themselves clean, but they ignored God’s Law and ate the Passover lambs anyway. Hezekiah found out what they had done and prayed, “LORD God, these people are unclean according to the laws of holiness. But they are worshiping you, just as their ancestors did. So, please be kind and forgive them.”
2 Chronicles 35:11
Then the Levites killed and skinned the Passover lambs, and they handed some of the blood to the priests, who splattered it on the altar.
Ezekiel 43:22
The next day, a goat that has nothing wrong with it must be offered as a sacrifice for sin. Purify the altar with its blood, just as you did with the blood of the bull.

53 Has anyone believed us or seen the mighty power of the Lord in action? 2 Like a young plant or a root that sprouts in dry ground, the servant grew up obeying the Lord. He wasn’t some handsome king. Nothing about the way he looked made him attractive to us.3 He was hated and rejected; his life was filled with sorrow and terrible suffering. No one wanted to look at him. We despised him and said, “He is a nobody!” 4 He suffered and endured great pain for us, but we thought his suffering was punishment from God.5 He was wounded and crushed because of our sins; by taking our punishment, he made us completely well.6 All of us were like sheep that had wandered off. We had each gone our own way, but the Lord gave him the punishment we deserved.7 He was painfully abused, but he did not complain. He was silent like a lamb being led to the butcher, as quiet as a sheep having its wool cut off.8 He was condemned to death without a fair trial. Who could have imagined what would happen to him? His life was taken away because of the sinful things my people[a] had done.
9 He wasn’t dishonest or violent, but he was buried in a tomb of cruel and rich people.[b] 10 The Lord decided his servant would suffer as a sacrifice to take away the sin and guilt of others. Now the servant will live to see his own descendants.[c]He did everything the Lord had planned.11 By suffering, the servant will learn the true meaning of obeying the Lord. Although he is innocent, he will take the punishment for the sins of others, so that many of them will no longer be guilty.12 The Lord will reward him with honor and power for sacrificing his life. Others thought he was a sinner, but he suffered for our sins and asked God to forgive us.---Isaiah 52
Continued on another post...

FearGod said:

Sorry my friend,but i didn't understand the logic of your comparison between the lamb for Abraham which had been slaughtered and eaten and Jesus which you also described him as the lamb which have been sucrificed for all humans,would you please clarify,i can't find any similarity between both cases.
We sacrifice lamb and then we enjoy eating it,but are we happy that god killed his son for our sins.
IMHO sacrifice is ordered by god to feed people whom are in need,so in Islam most part of the meat should be given for the poor in order for god to accept the sacrifice.
i don't think god is blood thirsty that he only want us to kill animals,it makes no sense to me,but to sacrifice it for the poor make sense to me.

Click to expand...

Continued from the last post....(bear with me please )

(THIS is why God starts refusing animal sacrifices..)

3 You sacrifice oxen to me, and you commit murder; you sacrifice lambs to me and dogs to other gods; you offer grain to me and pigs' blood to idols;
you burn incense to me and praise your idols.[b You have made your own choice
to do these disgusting things that you enjoy so much.4 You refused to answer when I called out; you paid no attention to my instructions. Instead, you did what I hated, knowing it was wrong.---Isaiah 66

6 I, the Lord All-Powerful, have something to say to you priests. Children respect their fathers, and servants respect their masters. I am your father and your master, so why don’t you respect me? You priests have insulted me, and now you ask, “How did we insult you?”
7 You embarrass me by offering worthless food on my altar. Then you ask, “How have we embarrassed you?” You have done it by saying, “What’s so great about the Lord’s altar?”
10 I wish someone would lock the doors of my temple, so you would stop wasting time building fires on my altar. I am not pleased with you priests, and I refuse to accept any more of your offerings.
12 But even you priests insult me by saying, “There’s nothing special about the Lord’s altar, and these sacrifices are worthless.” 13 You get so disgusted that you even make vulgar signs at me.[b] And for an offering, you bring stolen[c] animals or those that are crippled or sick. Should I accept these? 14 Instead of offering the acceptable animals you have promised, you bring me those that are unhealthy.---Malachi 1

10 On the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month,[e] the Lord God All-Powerful told the prophet Haggai 11 to ask the priests for their opinion on the following matter:
12 Suppose meat ready to be sacrificed to God is being carried in the folds of someone’s clothing, and the clothing rubs against some bread or stew or wine or olive oil or any other food. Would those foods that were touched then become acceptable for sacrifice? “Of course not,” the priests answered.13 Then Haggai said, “Suppose someone has touched a dead body and is considered unacceptable to worship God. If that person touches these foods, would they become unclean?” “Of course they would,” the priests answered.14 So the Lord told Haggai to say:That’s how it is with this entire nation. Everything you do and every sacrifice you offer is unacceptable to me. 15 But from now on, things will get better. Before you started laying the foundation for the temple, 16 you recalled what life was like in the past.[f] When you wanted twenty bushels of wheat, there were only ten, and when you wanted fifty jars of wine, there were only twenty. 17 I made all of your hard work useless by sending mildew, mold, and hail—but you still did not return to me, your Lord.---Haggai 2

(There's more but it's too much to post it all)

Now the New Testament...

Mark 12:33
It is also true that we must love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, and that we must love others as much as we love ourselves. These commandments are more important than all the sacrifices and offerings that we could possibly make.”
John 1:29
[ The Lamb of God ] The next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him and said: Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
1 Corinthians 5:7
Get rid of the old yeast! Then you will be like fresh bread made without yeast, and that is what you are. Our Passover lamb is Christ, who has already been sacrificed.
1 Peter 1:2
God the Father decided to choose you as his people, and his Spirit has made you holy. You have obeyed Jesus Christ and are sprinkled with his blood. I pray that God will be kind to you and will keep on giving you peace!
1 Peter 1:19
You were rescued by the precious blood of Christ, that spotless and innocent lamb.

30 Philip ran up close and heard the man reading aloud from the book of Isaiah. Philip asked him, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 The official answered, “How can I understand unless someone helps me?” He then invited Philip to come up and sit beside him.32 The man was reading the passage that said, “He was led like a sheep on its way to be killed. He was silent as a lamb whose wool is being cut off, and he did not say a word.33 He was treated like a nobody and did not receive a fair trial. How can he have children, if his life is snatched away?” 34 The official said to Philip, “Tell me, was the prophet talking about himself or about someone else?” 35 So Philip began at this place in the Scriptures and explained the good news about Jesus.---Acts 8
Romans 3:25-26
God sent Christ to be our sacrifice. Christ offered his life’s blood, so that by faith in him we could come to God. And God did this to show that in the past he was right to be patient and forgive sinners. This also shows that God is right when he accepts people who have faith in Jesus.
Romans 5:9
But there is more! Now that God has accepted us because Christ sacrificed his life’s blood, we will also be kept safe from God’s anger.
Romans 8:3
The Law of Moses cannot do this, because our selfish desires make the Law weak. But God set you free when he sent his own Son to be like us sinners (of flesh) and to be a sacrifice for our sin. God used Christ’s body to condemn sin.

12 Dear friends, God is good. So I beg you to offer your bodies to him as a living sacrifice, pure and pleasing. That’s the most sensible way to serve God. 2 Don’t be like the people of this world, but let God change the way you think. Then you will know how to do everything that is good and pleasing to him.
3 I realize how kind God has been to me, and so I tell each of you not to think you are better than you really are. Use good sense and measure yourself by the amount of faith that God has given you.---Romans 12
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood, and with it God makes his agreement with you. It will be poured out, so that many people will have their sins forgiven.
Mark 14:24
Then he said, “This is my blood, which is poured out for many people, and with it God makes his agreement.
Hebrews 9:22
The Law says that almost everything must be sprinkled with blood, and no sins can be forgiven unless blood is offered.
Revelation 7:14
“Sir,” I answered, “you must know.” Then he told me: “These are the ones who have gone through the great suffering. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and have made them white.

(Like I said, there's more but it's just too much to post)

But that make no difference,of course we have to work,but still all what we got is given to us by god,thats why we pray and thanks god for his givings before and after eating.

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Definitely...But God warns against laziness and he doesn't help you unless you try to help yourself first. But you do make a good point he does provide...Maybe that's why God commanded people to sacrifice their worldly possessions; as an act of faith, trust, and submission to show him that they knew they could rely on him and that he gives and takes away as he pleases.

if god givings is measured by how much ones work,then you can compare the salary of a farmer and a movie star.

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True..but the way we live now; this age is very twisted (I'm sure it's because of Satan's influence) because once upon a time, Farmers and Shepherds were considered to be some of the wealthiest people. And once upon a time Court Jesters :jester5: (entertainers) were peasants and considered to be servants for kings. But my point was that we rely on worldly possessions and gain most of them by working for them while God doesn't have to rely on or work for anything.

But the test according to Islam is,will you sacrifice and feed the poor from god's grace on you ,as you said before that it is a sacrifice if you'll give up your last dollar to help someone else.

Click to expand...

I agree.. We are tested everyday by God to see how much we are willing to sacrifice of ourselves (or our possessions). This is why (in Biblical days) little by little God stopped accepting sacrifices from people because the sacrifices started becoming just an act with no meaning. People became selfish and forgot that the sacrifices were so people could learn how to be selfless; not only with God but with each other.

i don't understand the logic behind that god had to incarnated as human because he loves us and if really so,why he didn't came back to us many times to guide us and why he made us to suffer,why many children died by cancer and their families lived in misery.
Why thousands have been killed in Japan because of Tsunami and many others every where in this world for similar reasons.

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..In that case why did he ever interfere before and not now?(which is a good question)
I'm sure you know these things are not God's fault...
God gave us free will and he gave the information and the resources we need to make our own decisions. This world is heavily influenced by Satan and the things we do to the earth affect the earth (like pollution). We (humans) are destroying the earth but it's part of Gods plan. Yes.. God allows everything to happen but he created everything so that everything we do, goes in accordance to his plan or will. Like I mentioned before God did and does everything for a reason. In the beginning he knew how much we needed his interference but now we (humans) are capable of so much which is why people don't believe or rely on God any more and he's already given all the information we need to properly obey or worship him. God will only do so much; If God interfered every time we were in trouble what kind of free will or test would that be? (I consider life itself to be a test which is why we have free will) Also God wants to save our souls more than he wants to save our flesh because the flesh will perish no matter what. Babies and children do die but are safe in the after life because as we said before God does not hold you accountable for that which you do not know (and only God knows your heart); if you are truly innocent which babies and children are. However most adults who have experienced the world are not (so innocent). And yes people may suffer here on earth but those who are faithful to God know that a better place awaits them in the after life where they will be reunited with their love ones.
Also, followers of the messiah (and I) believe God does guide us by the Holy spirit. I can Honestly say that certain understandings I have, don't come from my own limited understanding alone. Sometimes I break my head :bonknot literally) trying to understand something spiritual and then all of a sudden, I understand and knowledge just flows out of me. It's hard to explain since I feel it is a spiritual experience which our fleshly brains can't comprehend but it's like a deeper state of consciousness or being able to see something which some can't see. I try my best to understand things of a spiritual nature but It's hard to understand something spiritual when we (humans) are physical and we can only interpret things base on our physicality (senses, experiences, etc). However, the things (of a physical nature) I do understand on my own, I try to look at from all different angles or interpretations while I find that some see or understand from only one angle or interpretation.

i am sorry,but it seems to me that what you have mentioned here is irrelevant to what i had said about the teachings behind Abraham story and the
verses about submission to god which can be understood for everyday life.

Click to expand...

I do apologize if i misunderstood. You mentioned, when we submit to God, he has mercy on us. I'm not sure if you meant to say He forgives us but let's contemplate "submission". I think we agree that we should submit to God no matter what; whether we understand his ways and commands or not because it may be a test. Now let us look at a couple of examples..
Example: Sometimes there are things we tell other people about religion which they find crazy and may try to make us feel like we're crazy for believing in such things (I'm sure you can relate) this can be a test from God. Would you turn away from God or loose your faith in Him just because of how that person makes you feel at that moment? No. It's o-k to question (of course) but you wouldn't turn away, because you know what God said and you want to obey him no matter what anyone says. Just because someone else doesn't understand or you may not understand at that moment doesn't mean you aren't gonna obey God's command. When we obey God, it is an act of submission. Thus, passing a test.
Biblical Example: Abraham was about to sacrifice his son. He didn't know God's purpose for asking him to sacrifice his son. Abraham didn't even question God; he just obeyed; then God stopped him and told him it was just a test. Abraham showed total submission to God by obeying him without questioning. Thus Abraham passed God's test.
In order to be forgiven or pass a test, we have to submit to God in the manner which he commands us to (even if we don't understand). While some can't understand why God commanded people to make animal sacrifices in order to forgive sins, the fact of the matter is, that's what he commanded. This is why all the Prophets did it. They submitted to God by offering sacrifices for their sins. So we must submit according to God's understanding and not our own. (I'm sure the Prophets understood why they did it; though I'm not sure of the other believers)
I believe, keeping faith in what the scriptures say, believing the Messiah Jesus is a portion of God's power manifested, and refraining from sin (as much as I can) are tests' which I endure everyday of my life and try to pass by obeying no matter what. Therefore submitting myself to him and as long as I adhere to these things, I will be forgiven and saved in the afterlife. After all, how can we know for sure if we passed God's tests'; God doesn't speak to us directly like he did to the Prophets. (I'm sorry if my point is still irrelevant :sorry1

I apologize for the long posts' (I actually started my responses on pg. 15) but if you still can't gain a little bit of my perspective (which I hope you would), then I promise this will be the last post that is this long.

Tranquil Servant said:

Continued from the last post....(bear with me please )

(THIS is why God starts refusing animal sacrifices..)

3 You sacrifice oxen to me, and you commit murder; you sacrifice lambs to me and dogs to other gods; you offer grain to me and pigs' blood to idols;
you burn incense to me and praise your idols.[b You have made your own choice
to do these disgusting things that you enjoy so much.4 You refused to answer when I called out; you paid no attention to my instructions. Instead, you did what I hated, knowing it was wrong.---Isaiah 66

6 I, the Lord All-Powerful, have something to say to you priests. Children respect their fathers, and servants respect their masters. I am your father and your master, so why don’t you respect me? You priests have insulted me, and now you ask, “How did we insult you?”
7 You embarrass me by offering worthless food on my altar. Then you ask, “How have we embarrassed you?” You have done it by saying, “What’s so great about the Lord’s altar?”
10 I wish someone would lock the doors of my temple, so you would stop wasting time building fires on my altar. I am not pleased with you priests, and I refuse to accept any more of your offerings.
12 But even you priests insult me by saying, “There’s nothing special about the Lord’s altar, and these sacrifices are worthless.” 13 You get so disgusted that you even make vulgar signs at me.[b] And for an offering, you bring stolen[c] animals or those that are crippled or sick. Should I accept these? 14 Instead of offering the acceptable animals you have promised, you bring me those that are unhealthy.---Malachi 1

10 On the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month,[e] the Lord God All-Powerful told the prophet Haggai 11 to ask the priests for their opinion on the following matter:
12 Suppose meat ready to be sacrificed to God is being carried in the folds of someone’s clothing, and the clothing rubs against some bread or stew or wine or olive oil or any other food. Would those foods that were touched then become acceptable for sacrifice? “Of course not,” the priests answered.13 Then Haggai said, “Suppose someone has touched a dead body and is considered unacceptable to worship God. If that person touches these foods, would they become unclean?” “Of course they would,” the priests answered.14 So the Lord told Haggai to say:That’s how it is with this entire nation. Everything you do and every sacrifice you offer is unacceptable to me. 15 But from now on, things will get better. Before you started laying the foundation for the temple, 16 you recalled what life was like in the past.[f] When you wanted twenty bushels of wheat, there were only ten, and when you wanted fifty jars of wine, there were only twenty. 17 I made all of your hard work useless by sending mildew, mold, and hail—but you still did not return to me, your Lord.---Haggai 2

(There's more but it's too much to post it all)

Now the New Testament...

Mark 12:33
It is also true that we must love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, and that we must love others as much as we love ourselves. These commandments are more important than all the sacrifices and offerings that we could possibly make.”
John 1:29
[ The Lamb of God ] The next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him and said: Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
1 Corinthians 5:7
Get rid of the old yeast! Then you will be like fresh bread made without yeast, and that is what you are. Our Passover lamb is Christ, who has already been sacrificed.
1 Peter 1:2
God the Father decided to choose you as his people, and his Spirit has made you holy. You have obeyed Jesus Christ and are sprinkled with his blood. I pray that God will be kind to you and will keep on giving you peace!
1 Peter 1:19
You were rescued by the precious blood of Christ, that spotless and innocent lamb.

30 Philip ran up close and heard the man reading aloud from the book of Isaiah. Philip asked him, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 The official answered, “How can I understand unless someone helps me?” He then invited Philip to come up and sit beside him.32 The man was reading the passage that said, “He was led like a sheep on its way to be killed. He was silent as a lamb whose wool is being cut off, and he did not say a word.33 He was treated like a nobody and did not receive a fair trial. How can he have children, if his life is snatched away?” 34 The official said to Philip, “Tell me, was the prophet talking about himself or about someone else?” 35 So Philip began at this place in the Scriptures and explained the good news about Jesus.---Acts 8
Romans 3:25-26
God sent Christ to be our sacrifice. Christ offered his life’s blood, so that by faith in him we could come to God. And God did this to show that in the past he was right to be patient and forgive sinners. This also shows that God is right when he accepts people who have faith in Jesus.
Romans 5:9
But there is more! Now that God has accepted us because Christ sacrificed his life’s blood, we will also be kept safe from God’s anger.
Romans 8:3
The Law of Moses cannot do this, because our selfish desires make the Law weak. But God set you free when he sent his own Son to be like us sinners (of flesh) and to be a sacrifice for our sin. God used Christ’s body to condemn sin.

12 Dear friends, God is good. So I beg you to offer your bodies to him as a living sacrifice, pure and pleasing. That’s the most sensible way to serve God. 2 Don’t be like the people of this world, but let God change the way you think. Then you will know how to do everything that is good and pleasing to him.
3 I realize how kind God has been to me, and so I tell each of you not to think you are better than you really are. Use good sense and measure yourself by the amount of faith that God has given you.---Romans 12
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood, and with it God makes his agreement with you. It will be poured out, so that many people will have their sins forgiven.
Mark 14:24
Then he said, “This is my blood, which is poured out for many people, and with it God makes his agreement.
Hebrews 9:22
The Law says that almost everything must be sprinkled with blood, and no sins can be forgiven unless blood is offered.
Revelation 7:14
“Sir,” I answered, “you must know.” Then he told me: “These are the ones who have gone through the great suffering. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and have made them white.

(Like I said, there's more but it's just too much to post)

Click to expand...

All what you have mentioned of verses is regarding the sacrifice and i think we we have to think in rational way and then to understand the verses in a better way.

First questions which we should ask our selves are
Does god in need for our sacrifice for him to eat and smell ?
Does god enjoying to see an animal is killed for him ?
What does it mean that it sacrificed for god ?! for his sake or for him to eat

Now if we want to think about it in a rational way.
God had permitted us to sacrifice and slaughter what he had created for us ""for us to be pleased by his grace"",we are the one who will eat and enjoy the sacrifice,but we should understand that its god's sacrifice for us and his grace on us which it should be named to him once we sacrifice an animal .

Some few verses which may help to clear things up

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.



Continue Next post .....

Mark 14:12
[ The Last Supper ] On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”


1 Corinthians 8:7
But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.

Genesis 31:54
He offered a sacrifice there in the hill country and invited his relatives to a meal. After they had eaten, they spent the night there.

Mark 12:33
To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

1 Corinthians 8:4
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.”

1 Kings 1:25
Today he has gone down and sacrificed great numbers of cattle, fattened calves, and sheep. He has invited all the king’s sons, the commanders of the army and Abiathar the priest. Right now they are eating and drinking with him and saying, ‘Long live King Adonijah!’

Deuteronomy 27:7
Sacrifice fellowship offerings there, eating them and rejoicing in the presence of the LORD your God.

Acts 21:25
As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

1 Corinthians 8:10
For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols?

1 Samuel 9:13
As soon as you enter the town, you will find him before he goes up to the high place to eat. The people will not begin eating until he comes, because he must bless the sacrifice; afterward, those who are invited will eat. Go up now; you should find him about this time.”

1 Samuel 16:5
Samuel replied, “Yes, in peace; I have come to sacrifice to the LORD. Consecrate yourselves and come to the sacrifice with me.” Then he consecrated Jesse and his sons and invited them to the sacrifice.

Acts 15:29
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

1 Samuel 16:3
Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what to do. You are to anoint for me the one I indicate.”

Exodus 18:12
Then Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, brought a burnt offering and other sacrifices to God, and Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat a meal with Moses’ father-in-law in the presence of God.

Exodus 32:6
So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.

Leviticus 7:16
“‘If, however, their offering is the result of a vow or is a freewill offering, the sacrifice shall be eaten on the day they offer it, but anything left over may be eaten on the next day.

1 Kings 1:19
He has sacrificed great numbers of cattle, fattened calves, and sheep, and has invited all the king’s sons, Abiathar the priest and Joab the commander of the army, but he has not invited Solomon your servant.

Leviticus 7:17
Any meat of the sacrifice left over till the third day must be burned up.

51.Leviticus 19:6
It shall be eaten on the day you sacrifice it or on the next day; anything left over until the third day must be burned up.

Deuteronomy 12:31
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

Lady B said:

Dear Fear God, in most due respect: may I ask what your point is? , rather, where you are going with giving all these verses of which some mean entirely different things? are you trying to find verses implying sacrifice is not God's intent? that it was not pleasing to him or that it did not forgive sins? or that some used it in wrong ways? Tranquil Servant has certainly done well in showing what sacrifice meant for God. I just don't understand your rebuttal....

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Hi Lady B,

To explain my point let me first ask you what the following verse means

Genesis 4:4
and Abel also gave an offering to the LORD. He killed the first-born lamb from one of his sheep and gave the LORD the best parts of it. The LORD was pleased with Abel and his offering,

So what it means that he gave the lord the best part of it.
of course the lord won't going to eat it.,so what do you think the real meaning.

Honestly Fear God, I have no answer.....I do not till now understand what God saw pleasing in Blood or death, But the facts remain, The scriptures say it is so...

Wish someone can help us both in this question I could give you the best from Christian scholars, But if I am not convinced, I will not expect others to be..... So Inshallah, we will have our answers soon...

I can not find the discourse between Lady B and savage wind but I am still anticipating an answer please.

Lady B you wrote God hates death of all kinds. Is that correct?

Then I offered a scripture that says a kernel of wheat must die to produce more wheat. According to that truth, God does not hate death.

What did you mean?

savagewind said:

I can not find the discourse between Lady B and savage wind but I am still anticipating an answer please.

Lady B you wrote God hates death of all kinds. Is that correct?

Then I offered a scripture that says a kernel of wheat must die to produce more wheat. According to that truth, God does not hate death.

What did you mean?

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Dear Savagewind, I do not remember saying God hates death, I do remember saying however that surely in creation If God said after his 6 days that it was "good" then he did not see layers of layers of fossils and death in his perfect creation as science tries to portray. I believe when God created the earth in 6 days and saw it as "good" it was without death at all and that Adam brought death into the world by sin.

I still do not understand. Did animals and plants not die?

savagewind said:

I still do not understand. Did animals and plants not die?

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prior to the fall? no I do not believe they did. After the fall, God himself made the first death by the animal he slew to clothe adam and eve.