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Jesus sacrifice and logic

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Let me first give another analogy if I may..
Imagine a man has walked on through life and he has fallen into sin. Imagine this sin is say a huge hole in the ground and he is clawing the dirt in attempt to climb out.

First a man comes to his hold and peers down, he says" try to meditate and when you reach nirvana you will have peace.....
And so he tried and yet could not get himself out.

A second man comes to help him and says, hey down there, this hole does not even exist, and you do not even exist...... This of course did not help the man to get himself out

A 3rd man comes and says " I tell you if you do all these, and pray you will get out of that hole.... And so he tried and he prayed and soon he became weak and weary.

Finally a man came and saw him in the hole and asked him, do you want to be free? He said yes yesssssss... This man climbed down into the hole with him and said" hold onto me, for you have no strength of your own to save yourself" he then drew the man out of the hole and into the light." for it is by grace that you are saved, through faith; and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

But that still does not explain why the All Righteous God could not extend his hand of mercy to this poor sinner and bring him out of the dirt instead of sending His son to suffer on the dirt. And He is neither being All Loving nor JUST to His son - is He ? If God is All Loving - it should be towards ALL OF HIS CREATIONS. Or do you think Jesus(pbuh) was not CREATED ?

Finally, as I see from the following statements :
John 12:44, NIV : Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.
AND
John 13:3, NIV : Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

So as you can see, the Father gave Jesus everything, and Jesus himself stated that he who believes in Jesus believes in the one who sent him which is God. So you put it together, and you see that when Jesus said that when you see him you see the Father, this wasn’t literal and Jesus was not claiming to be God at all. You see the power of God when you see Jesus since he is his prophet, the same with all other prophets. The Father gave Jesus EVERYTHING so hence when you saw a miracle from Jesus, you saw a work from the Father, not Jesus, the Father just gave Jesus the miracle to perform, Jesus did not own it. It cannot be clearer(unequivocal and unambiguous) that He came from God and He was returning to God (exactly as we Muslims believe) nothing about He being equal to God.

I will respond to remainder of Part 3 of your summary later.

Until then Peace.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
Here is my belief. If a man murders someone and is then very sorry, the judge must still make him pay the penalty or he is not being just and justice is not being served for the victims' sake even if their family/friends forgive him. If we sin and then are very sorry, even though God forgives us, the penalty must still be paid or he is not just. That is why Jesus died.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Here is my belief. If a man murders someone and is then very sorry, the judge must still make him pay the penalty or he is not being just and justice is not being served for the victims' sake even if their family/friends forgive him. If we sin and then are very sorry, even though God forgives us, the penalty must still be paid or he is not just.

I agree upto here...

That is why Jesus died.

This is were you lost me. That is like saying when person X murders person Y and family of Y seeks Justice - Judge says ok, I'll give death sentence to my Son and let person X go free (so he can commit more murders freely).

Better yet, the Judge says X will be roaming the same heaven freely with Y without suffering any other consequences while the poor Son of the Judge had to go through the 'sin compensating death'. Would that be considered Justice to any sane person under any circumstance ? I don't think so.

Peace.
 
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javajo

Well-Known Member
I agree upto here...



This is were you lost me. That is like saying when person X murders person Y and family of Y seeks Justice - Judge says ok, I'll give death sentence to my Son and let person X go free (so he can commit more murders freely).

Better yet, the Judge says X will be roaming the same heaven freely with Y without suffering any other consequences while the poor Son of the Judge had to go through the 'sin compensating death'. Would that be considered Justice to any sane person under any circumstance ? I don't think so.

Peace.
My belief: He died in our place, so we don't have to pay the penalty. The penalty is eternal separation from God if we had to pay it ourselves. Its called the substitutionary atonement.
 
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loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
He died in our place, so we don't have to pay the penalty. The penalty is eternal separation from God if we had to pay it ourselves. Its called the substitutionary atonement.

You can call it whatever you want. But we are trying to establish whether it is Just or not. That is not Justice. God forbid if someone kills your child and then you go to court to get justice for the killer and the judge tells you, here is an innocent man who is willing to receive the death penalty instead of the Killer. Would you willingly accept the death of an innocent in place of the Killer ? Would that satisfy your quest for Justice for the perpetrator ? Would that be Just ? No is the answer to all (for any reasonable person, I think).
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
He died in our place, so we don't have to pay the penalty. The penalty is eternal separation from God if we had to pay it ourselves. Its called the substitutionary atonement.

Let us see where is the justise according to your view

Person x : He do sins but he believe that Jesus had paid for his sins.
Person y : He do sins but he don't believe that jesus had paid for his sins.

So do you think that person y won't be saved just becuase he don't believe that god did kill his son to pay for his sins.

Please do you think that make any sense.
 

Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
Please note that when Abraham's son asked his father where is the sacrifice,
Abraham answered that god will gave it to us "keep this in mind"

Yes my friend.... I do keep this in mind everyday as a follower of the Messiah, I believe God not only provided the Lamb for Abraham that day but provided the "Lamb" (who was Jesus) for all of mankind and for eternity.

We agree that a sacrifice is something which we own and which belong to us,then we gave it up for a purpose,and in most cases it is offered to
help someone such as in your previous example in giving your only last dollar to help someone else.
Yes..I do agree but When the People of Biblical times made sacrifices, It was God who commanded them to make sacrifices and in return he would help, bless or forgive them. And like I mentioned before it wasn't the act of killing which God cared about, It was the obedience of the people and the fact that they were willing to "give up" something of value here on earth in order to be cleansed of their sins, show faith and submission to worship God.

Now lets go back to the beginning of life on earth "Adam,Eve and their sons"
What did they own ?
everything on earth were for them,but are they really the owners ?
of course not because the real owner is god the creator who offered such graces for them and then for us.
So we can understand that the real one who sacrificed was god by creating such souls (goats,sheeps..etc) for us to be pleased.
I understand what you mean by God being the creator of everything and It's like you said God gave us (humans) everything but he also declared...

(Adam)"You listened to your wife and ate fruit from that tree. And so, the ground will be under a curse because of what you did. As long as you live, you will have to struggle to grow enough food.18 Your food will be plants, but the ground will produce thorns and thistles.19 You will have to sweat to earn a living".---Genesis 3

What does this mean?..This means that from that point on, we (humans) are vulnerable and rely on the food that the earth produces including the animals which God put here and although God does provide us with blessings he can also take them away. Therefor we must work hard for what we get. You reap what you sow.
God on the other hand doesn't rely on anything that the earth produces. The sacrifices he commanded people to make don't sustain him so it isn't God who is sacrificing because earthly possessions don't matter to him. However earthly possessions do matter to us (humans) "cause we need them (food, clothing, etc..) to survive.
However the sacrifice God did make was when he humbled himself out of mercy, took on a human form, endured insults, persecution, and finally a painful death. Why? because he loved us and wanted us to live physically and spiritually without being bound to making animal sacrifices. The only "sacrifice" we are obligated to make now is the sacrifice of refraining from earthly desires and sin.

Again remember Abraham saying to his son "god will send the sacrifice"
Should'nt we read what is between the lines.:)
We should read between the lines and underneath the lines as well to know the true meaning of this very significant line.

Now back to what we understand from Abraham story as i didn't find other thoughts other than a test.

We should first to understand that Abraham and his son had submitted and surrendered to god's will and they were submitters. read the following verses please

Chronicles 30:8
Do not be stiff-necked, as your ancestors were; submit to the Lord. Come to his sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever. Serve the Lord your God, so that his fierce anger will turn away from you.
The King and Prophet Hezekiah of Judah at the time made this statement because...
6 "Some of our ancestors were unfaithful and disobeyed the Lord our God. Not only did they turn their backs on the Lord, but they also completely ignored his temple. 7 They locked the doors, then let the lamps go out and stopped burning incense and offering sacrifices to him. 8 The Lord became terribly angry at the people of Judah and Jerusalem, and everyone was shocked and horrified at what he did to punish them. Not only were 9 our ancestors killed in battle, but our own children and wives were taken captive."--- 2 Chronicles 29

Job 22:21
“Submit to God and be at peace with him; in this way prosperity will come to you.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

So first lesson is submission to god's will

Second lesson is that god is merciful, just imagine if he will asked us to sacrifice one of his creations (soul) which is one of our sons as kind of submission to his will,so we should understand that god is merciful and what he is asking us to do is good things otherwise if he is an awful one he may asked us to do awful things such as the image of killing one of our own sons as kind of submission to him as shown in Abraham story.
Yes.. I agree but the way we submit to God is by obeying him and his commands. Before, the command was to offer an animal sacrifice. Now, the command is to believe in God's sacrifice and to "sacrifice" our own earthly desires.
John 1:29
[ The Lamb of God ] The next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him and said: Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 13:15-16 15 Our sacrifice is to keep offering praise to God in the name of Jesus. 16 But don’t forget to help others and to share your possessions with them. This too is like offering a sacrifice that pleases God.

when we obey, it is an act of faith and submission then God forgives us of our transgressions. God having mercy on us is different from him forgiving us of our sins (as I mentioned twice before).

Mercy--Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.

Forgive--To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

On Judgement Day, many people will pay for their sins.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Yes my friend.... I do keep this in mind everyday as a follower of the Messiah, I believe God not only provided the Lamb for Abraham that day but provided the "Lamb" (who was Jesus) for all of mankind and for eternity.

Sorry my friend,but i didn't understand the logic of your comparison between the lamb for Abraham which had been slaughtered and eaten and Jesus which you also described him as the lamb which have been sucrificed for all humans,would you please clarify,i can't find any similarity between both cases.

We sacrifice lamb and then we enjoy eating it,but are we happy that god killed his son for our sins.

Yes..I do agree but When the People of Biblical times made sacrifices, It was God who commanded them to make sacrifices and in return he would help, bless or forgive them. And like I mentioned before it wasn't the act of killing which God cared about, It was the obedience of the people and the fact that they were willing to "give up" something of value here on earth in order to be cleansed of their sins, show faith and submission to worship God.

IMHO sacrifice is ordered by god to feed people whom are in need,so in Islam most part of the meat should be given for the poor in order for god to accept the sacrifice.

i don't think god is blood thirsty that he only want us to kill animals,it makes no sense to me,but to sacrifice it for the poor make sense to me.

I understand what you mean by God being the creator of everything and It's like you said God gave us (humans) everything but he also declared...

(Adam)"You listened to your wife and ate fruit from that tree. And so, the ground will be under a curse because of what you did. As long as you live, you will have to struggle to grow enough food.18 Your food will be plants, but the ground will produce thorns and thistles.19 You will have to sweat to earn a living".---Genesis 3

What does this mean?..This means that from that point on, we (humans) are vulnerable and rely on the food that the earth produces including the animals which God put here and although God does provide us with blessings he can also take them away. Therefor we must work hard for what we get. You reap what you sow.
God on the other hand doesn't rely on anything that the earth produces. The sacrifices he commanded people to make don't sustain him so it isn't God who is sacrificing because earthly possessions don't matter to him. However earthly possessions do matter to us (humans) "cause we need them (food, clothing, etc..) to survive.

But that make no difference,of course we have to work,but still all what we got is given to us by god,thats why we pray and thanks god for his givings before and after eating.

if god givings is measured by how much ones work,then you can compare the salary of a farmer and a movie star.

No relation at all of how much we work or even how much are we religeous to the amount of grace given to us by god.

But the test according to Islam is,will you sacrifice and feed the poor from god's grace on you ,as you said before that it is a sacrifice if you'll give up your last dollar to help someone else.

However the sacrifice God did make was when he humbled himself out of mercy, took on a human form, endured insults, persecution, and finally a painful death. Why? because he loved us and wanted us to live physically and spiritually without being bound to making animal sacrifices. The only "sacrifice" we are obligated to make now is the sacrifice of refraining from earthly desires and sin.

i don't understand the logic behind that god had to incarnated as human because he loves us and if really so,why he didn't came back to us many times to guide us and why he made us to suffer,why many children died by cancer and their families lived in misery.

Why thousands have been killed in Japan because of Tsunami and many others every where in this world for similar reasons.

I love you Japan,isn't it ? is that god's power of love or god is powerless ?!

[youtube]1_3kqpSqE9I[/youtube]
Japan Tsunami - Sad Videos - Trance - YouTube


We should read between the lines and underneath the lines as well to know the true meaning of this very significant line.

The King and Prophet Hezekiah of Judah at the time made this statement because...
6 "Some of our ancestors were unfaithful and disobeyed the Lord our God. Not only did they turn their backs on the Lord, but they also completely ignored his temple. 7 They locked the doors, then let the lamps go out and stopped burning incense and offering sacrifices to him. 8 The Lord became terribly angry at the people of Judah and Jerusalem, and everyone was shocked and horrified at what he did to punish them. Not only were 9 our ancestors killed in battle, but our own children and wives were taken captive."--- 2 Chronicles 29

Yes.. I agree but the way we submit to God is by obeying him and his commands. Before, the command was to offer an animal sacrifice. Now, the command is to believe in God's sacrifice and to "sacrifice" our own earthly desires.
John 1:29
[ The Lamb of God ] The next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him and said: Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 13:15-16 15 Our sacrifice is to keep offering praise to God in the name of Jesus. 16 But don’t forget to help others and to share your possessions with them. This too is like offering a sacrifice that pleases God.

when we obey, it is an act of faith and submission then God forgives us of our transgressions. God having mercy on us is different from him forgiving us of our sins (as I mentioned twice before).

Mercy--Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.

Forgive--To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

On Judgement Day, many people will pay for their sins.

i am sorry,but it seems to me that what you have mentioned here is irrelevant to what i had said about the teachings behind Abraham story and the
verses about submission to god which can be understood for everyday life.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
You can call it whatever you want. But we are trying to establish whether it is Just or not. That is not Justice. God forbid if someone kills your child and then you go to court to get justice for the killer and the judge tells you, here is an innocent man who is willing to receive the death penalty instead of the Killer. Would you willingly accept the death of an innocent in place of the Killer ? Would that satisfy your quest for Justice for the perpetrator ? Would that be Just ? No is the answer to all (for any reasonable person, I think).

Let us see where is the justise according to your view

Person x : He do sins but he believe that Jesus had paid for his sins.
Person y : He do sins but he don't believe that jesus had paid for his sins.

So do you think that person y won't be saved just becuase he don't believe that god did kill his son to pay for his sins.

Please do you think that make any sense.
My beliefs: To answer you both, the problem is that we all have sinned and fallen short. No matter how sorry we are or how good we try to be, we have all sinned and the penalty is death. We are all condemned and without hope. But God, because he loved us, gave his Son who paid that penalty for all of us, he died. Because he was sinless, he was the only one who could pay the penalty in full and rise again in victory. Salvation is God's gift to us, it is not something we do for him as nothing we could do could atone for our sin except die and be lost forever.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
My beliefs: To answer you both, the problem is that we all have sinned and fallen short. No matter how sorry we are or how good we try to be, we have all sinned and the penalty is death. We are all condemned and without hope. But God, because he loved us, gave his Son who paid that penalty for all of us, he died. Because he was sinless, he was the only one who could pay the penalty in full and rise again in victory. Salvation is God's gift to us, it is not something we do for him as nothing we could do could atone for our sin except die and be lost forever.

But you didn't answer my question and which is

Do you think that person Y won't be saved just becaused he don't believe that Jesus was crucified to pay for his sins.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you think that person Y won't be saved just because he doesn't believe that Jesus was crucified to pay for his sins.

The question is not to me, I know. May I say what I think? 'Jesus' (meaning Yahweh is Salvation) opened the way for salvation for everyone. But a person must choose the way of salvation for the person to benefit from it. There exists no person who knows the way for another person. But it is possible to accept the leader to follow him. It is not easy.
Matthew 10 37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 “He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

John 14:4 Where I go, you know, and you know the way
Luke 8:48 your faith has healed you. Go in peace
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
But you didn't answer my question and which is

Do you think that person Y won't be saved just becaused he don't believe that Jesus was crucified to pay for his sins.
I believe that if they have been told that Christ paid for their sins and reject him then they will die in their sins and end up paying for their sins themselves for eternity. Here are some scripture passages:

for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24b

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. From John 3

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:10-13
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
My beliefs: To answer you both, the problem is that we all have sinned and fallen short. No matter how sorry we are or how good we try to be, we have all sinned and the penalty is death. We are all condemned and without hope. But God, because he loved us, gave his Son who paid that penalty for all of us, he died. Because he was sinless, he was the only one who could pay the penalty in full and rise again in victory. Salvation is God's gift to us, it is not something we do for him as nothing we could do could atone for our sin except die and be lost forever.

First of all, you didn't answer my questions : Would you willingly accept the death of an innocent in place of the Killer ? Would that satisfy your quest for Justice for the perpetrator ? - If not, you cannot accept it in this case either.

Secondly, Jesus(pbuh) never stated what you are stating - Paul did.

And finally, you are directly contradicting the concept of Repentance stated in Ezekiel 18. "21 But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live." (Ezekiel 18:21-22)

In that case, they wouldn't need anyone's sacrifice to be saved.
 
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javajo

Well-Known Member
First of all, you didn't answer my questions : Would you willingly accept the death of an innocent in place of the Killer ? Would that satisfy your quest for Justice for the perpetrator ? - If not, you cannot accept it in this case either.
It does not matter if I would, God did:

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He (God) shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Isaiah 53

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10

Secondly, Jesus(pbuh) never stated what you are stating - Paul did.
Jesus said:

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory
? Luke 24
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Mathew 26

And finally, you are directly contradicting the concept of Repentance stated in Ezekiel 18. "21 But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live." (Ezekiel 18:21-22)
I believe that passage. When we repent, God is able to not remember our sins against us because Jesus paid the penalty. Those who died before the cross looked forward while we look back on it. You see, just because we are sorry and repent does not erase the penalty. We can repent all the live long day but that won't pay the penalty. That is why Christ died. That's my belief.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I believe that if they have been told that Christ paid for their sins and reject him then they will die in their sins and end up paying for their sins themselves for eternity. Here are some scripture passages:

for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24b

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. From John 3

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:10-13

So our sins are judged according to what we believe about Jesus and not what we had actually did.

in other words in the judgement day sins will be judged as follow:

Ruler : did you believe that jesus died to pay for your sins ?
Answer : Yes,i do
Ruler : all your sins are forgiven and you are free because you did believe about this story

Lets see a person of another faith

Ruler : did you believe that jesus died to pay for your sins ?
Answer : No,i don't believe this story.
Ruler : Ok,your sins are not forgiven,you have to be judged because you didn't believe about the story of Jesus sacrify.

Another Person

Ruler : did you believe that jesus died to pay for your sins ?
Answer:i was not sure,i was just skeptical sometimes about Jesus sacrify.
Ruler : No,you must have faith on it,you are not forgiven

So the measure of judgement to what we had did on earth depends on our faith about the story of Jesus sacrify.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
So the measure of judgement to what we had did on earth depends on our faith about the story of Jesus sacrify.
I believe if one has heard the Gospel of Grace and rejected, not the story of Christ, but Christ himself and Christ's offer of salvation, then one is eternally lost. The measure of judgment is decided by God, who judges with equity. Eternal life will not be the same for everyone nor will the severity of judgment be the same for the eternally lost.
 
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Lady B

noob
So our sins are judged according to what we believe about Jesus and not what we had actually did.

in other words in the judgement day sins will be judged as follow:

Ruler : did you believe that jesus died to pay for your sins ?
Answer : Yes,i do
Ruler : all your sins are forgiven and you are free because you did believe about this story

Lets see a person of another faith

Ruler : did you believe that jesus died to pay for your sins ?
Answer : No,i don't believe this story.
Ruler : Ok,your sins are not forgiven,you have to be judged because you didn't believe about the story of Jesus sacrify.

Another Person

Ruler : did you believe that jesus died to pay for your sins ?
Answer:i was not sure,i was just skeptical sometimes about Jesus sacrify.
Ruler : No,you must have faith on it,you are not forgiven

So the measure of judgement to what we had did on earth depends on our faith about the story of Jesus sacrify.

Dear Fear God and Lover of truth:
If we get right down to it,Fear God, you are correct in all 3 examples. This is indeed what Christians believe and I make no apologies for it. A man must see that it is not his works or his goodness that brings his salvation, but by The sacrifice of Christ on our behalf. We do believe this and will defend it till death, If we are wrong and were deceived by our Holy Scriptures, then may God have mercy on us all.

How did we get here? First and foremost we believe the Bible is the absolute word of God. We do not believe it was ever corrupted or changed or that additions were made. God preserves his word. I would ask you to go to the Koran and find The same premise. I have read for myself wherein it states" God's word cannot be changed by men" does this not apply to all of God's word? If the Koran speaks highly of the Bible as God's word and then says God's word cannot be changed by men. How do you justify this?

The problem between us and other religions is how we view the Bible, does it not? We both sides can give scripture after scripture to support our views, but unless we both agree in the scripture as authentic it is then reduced to a 'he said she said' argument. This is evidence not held up even in man's laws so how can we breech this separation?

I am not saying debates among us are useless, surely they are enlightening. However when we see a wall, such as how we both view Christ and his sacrifice we need to find a solid floor to stand on. My floor is The Bible, yours is the Koran. These floors are not equal or cannot breech the crack between us, in our both eyes, so how can we reach each other? We try to find common ground. Christ is not our common ground unfortunately. The Koran speaks of another Christ, a messenger. My Bible puts him on the right hand of God the father, being one, equal but his own persona.and by him are we saved." I am the way, the truth and the light, no man comes to the father but by me" This is a concept you cannot accept, no matter what evidences we show.the problem does not lie in the interpretations, it lies in the view of the Bible itself and I see no help here. There just is no way to bring our solid foundations together with them being reduced to sand in eachothers eyes.
I am not saying I give up, I will never give up learning and defending my faith, However in this topic of Christ and his sacrifice, my logic and yours will never unite for our very foundations cannot unite unless we both agree in the foundations existence as solid and solidity being God made.
Do we agree in this?:)
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
It does not matter if I would, God did:

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper
in his hand.

11 He (God) shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Isaiah 53

So you mean there is a different standard for Justice for us and God ? Very interesting.

Also, as far as I know, all Jews do not interpret these verses to be about Jesus(pbuh) rather they interpret it to be talking about the Nation of Israel.


9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10

Once again that is not God saying - it is Paul saying.

Jesus said:

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory
? Luke 24
This does not in any clear fashion say that Jesus, the Son of God - died for our sins. It could mean so many things - all Prophets suffer in the hands of their people. If you read that entire section, you'll notice that they talk about Jesus as Prophet : "About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people." (Luke 24:19) . It is amazing how you ignore the clear unambiguous statements and follow some ambiguous ones to mean what you want.

Anyway, this is what Muslims believe. "And because of their saying, `We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God'- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not (Jesus, son of Mary). But God raised him (Jesus) up unto Himself. And God is ever All-Powerful, All-Wise" (Al Quran 4:157-158).

And the doubt and the conjecture that the Qur'an is talking about is very clear from the contradictions in the Biblical narrative. I will just give a few example here.

Did Jesus bear his own cross?
Yes (John 19:17)
No (Matthew 27:31-32)

Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion?
On the cross (Mark 15:33)
In Pilates court (John 19:14)

Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion?
Yes. (Mark 15:34-36)
No. (John 19:28-29)

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Mathew 26

I am sure you don't take that literally - do you ? Do you believe his disciples actually ate his flesh and drank his blood ? So metaphorically, it could very well mean that Jesus(pbuh) was just blessing the food for them so they would be healed/purified (like holy water per say). For example, Muslims also believe that on the day of Judgement the righteous would be drinking water (from a special fountain) which the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) will serve with his own hands.

I believe that passage. When we repent, God is able to not remember our sins against us because Jesus paid the penalty. Those who died before the cross looked forward while we look back on it.

But nowhere in that passage it talks about Jesus(pbuh). Also, notice that it is in OT. How can you make that stuff up ? Moreover, what if that person didn't believe in the sacrifice of Jesus(pbuh) - so Jesus's penalty wouldn't count for that person anyway and yet it says 'that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them'.

You see, just because we are sorry and repent does not erase the penalty. We can repent all the live long day but that won't pay the penalty. That is why Christ died. That's my belief.

You can BELIEVE whatever you want but what I am telling you is - that is not what your scripture says. As it further states : "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? " Ezekiel 18:23

So God instantly becomes pleased when someone turns from sinful ways to righteousness and He doesn't want death for anyone (including His son - no mention of that as a requirement for his pleasure). If God truly required the penalty of sacrifice, He still wouldn't be pleased with the one who repented no matter how much he repents. He would only be pleased with His Son, in that case since the repenter still remains sinful. All this just doesn't add up.

Peace.
 
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