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Aryan invasion theory

Pleroma

philalethist
Can anyone tell me what is the current scientific scholarly consensus on this theory. Did Veda and the Upanishads originate with in India? or did some other foreign tribe taught them? How old are the Vedas really?

Its important to know these answers as a Sanatana Dharmin I guess.

I don't want any apologetic or biased views please.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
All the evidence I have seen so far overwhelmingly shows me that the AIT is bunk. The IVC was a Vedic civilization. The very fact that the Rig Veda mentions the now dried up Saraswati river which was thriving in 4000BCE is proof-positive. As well as the fact that they have found Vedic fire altars and many symbols and iconography that is consistent with Vedic tiems.

But there is one question I am asking myself for a long time if it turns out that the Vedas really do go back to 4000 or even 7000BCE, then are we going to have to radically adjust Indian history and the dates of prominent people like Buddha, Patanjali, Kapila, Chandragupta Mauraya and prominent events like Mahabharata war etc
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, scholars are more inclined nowadays to reject the AIT. I think human history and civiliztions go back much further than we currently think. Consider Göbekli Tepe.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
The Sanskrit language is an Indo-European language; this is absolutely certain. Therefore, even if the language itself is native to India, its ancestry is not. However, genetically, there has not been a mass migration into India for tens of thousands of years. Therefore, instead of having mass human migration, we have cultural/linguistic migration, probably similar to that of modern Western culture migrating all over the world.

The Upanishads, however, are 100% Indian.

(BTW, you'll always get biased views; that's impossible to avoid.)
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
The Sanskrit language is an Indo-European language; this is absolutely certain. Therefore, even if the language itself is native to India, its ancestry is not.

The conclusion that its ancestry is not from India does not follow from the fact Sanskrit is an Indo-European language ;)

It is equally as possible the language and culture began in India, and then migrated throughout Indo-europe.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
The conclusion that its ancestry is not from India does not follow from the fact Sanskrit is an Indo-European language ;)

Yeah, it does. Indo-European is a currently-existing language family, not a specific language or family no longer in existence. English is an Indo-European language, German is an Indo-European language, Iranian is an Indo-European language, Russian is an Indo-Eropean language... and, yes, Hindi is, as well. Tamil, OTOH, is not.

It is equally as possible the language and culture began in India, and then migrated throughout Indo-europe.
The "Indo" in Indo-European refers to India.

Linguists aren't sure where the Proto-Indo-European speakers lived, but consensus is that they were somewhere around where the Black Sea is today.

Indo-European is a term that refers to a language family, which, yes, includes most European languages, but also refers to Russian languages, some Middle-Eastern languages, and some Indian languages.

This is the tree:

language.gif


And there are more languages not listed here that are dead.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Don't ask certain western indologists. For me, it just came with the Abrahamic assumtion that man had to start in the middle east. It just naturally follows for that assumption. Only problem is ... that assumption is false.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Can anyone tell me what is the current scientific scholarly consensus on this theory. Did Veda and the Upanishads originate with in India? or did some other foreign tribe taught them? How old are the Vedas really?

Its important to know these answers as a Sanatana Dharmin I guess.

I don't want any apologetic or biased views please.

Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT), which today is called Aryan Migration (IAM) theory are both incorrect, and a quick Google search will give plenty of answers.

Before the British there were no such concepts.

I dont know why people still dont know their own history, or even bring this up.

Vedas, brahmanas, aryanakas, Upanishads, ithihas, purana all originated in Bharat, there is no doubt in that.

Heres some NON ARYA SAMAJI, stuff that i found on the matter.

.: Omilos Meleton :.

The Myth of the Aryan Invavsion of India

https://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home/Aryans
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
***Mod post***

This thread has been moved to the Same Faith Debates forum.​
 

Pleroma

philalethist
All the evidence I have seen so far overwhelmingly shows me that the AIT is bunk. The IVC was a Vedic civilization. The very fact that the Rig Veda mentions the now dried up Saraswati river which was thriving in 4000BCE is proof-positive. As well as the fact that they have found Vedic fire altars and many symbols and iconography that is consistent with Vedic tiems.

But there is one question I am asking myself for a long time if it turns out that the Vedas really do go back to 4000 or even 7000BCE, then are we going to have to radically adjust Indian history and the dates of prominent people like Buddha, Patanjali, Kapila, Chandragupta Mauraya and prominent events like Mahabharata war etc

If this is true then we must revise our textbooks and how the history is taught.
 

Pleroma

philalethist
The conclusion that its ancestry is not from India does not follow from the fact Sanskrit is an Indo-European language ;)

It is equally as possible the language and culture began in India, and then migrated throughout Indo-europe.

This seems to be true.

New research debunks Aryan invasion theory - India - DNA

“Africans came to India through Central Asia during 80,000 to 60,000 BCE and they moved to Europe sometime around 30,000 BCE. The Indian Vedic literature and the epics are all silent about the Aryan-Dravidian conflict,” said Dr S Kalyanaraman, a proponent of the Saraswathi civilization which developed along the banks of the now defunct River Saraswathi.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
The Sanskrit language is an Indo-European language; this is absolutely certain. Therefore, even if the language itself is native to India, its ancestry is not. However, genetically, there has not been a mass migration into India for tens of thousands of years. Therefore, instead of having mass human migration, we have cultural/linguistic migration, probably similar to that of modern Western culture migrating all over the world...

^ All this.

It is equally as possible the language and culture began in India, and then migrated throughout Indo-europe.

The OIT makes even less sense than the AIT. It makes no sense, nor is there any evidence except for wishful thinking. If, as all evidence suggests, modern humans migrated out of Africa beginning about 150,000 years ago, then migrated north, west and east, it would make no sense to migrate to south Asia, develop a particular language family, then migrate it north and west again. Especially if one considers that IE is hypothesized to be only about 6,000-8,000 years old. No one knows what language(s) early man spoke and when. Because languages change at an alarmingly fast rate, it is not possible to reconstruct them backwards more than 6,000-8,000 years.

Moreover, Neanderthals and modern humans are both descendants of Homo Erectus, which got to Europe and Asia before modern man or Neanderthals evolved, several hundred thousand years ago. H. Erectus has been found all over Europe and the middle east. It's more likely that a pocket of west-central Asian nomads became the Indoeuropeans and radiated outwards. It makes no sense, not to mention no evidence for, that a major language family would have its roots at Point A (India) and migrate to Point B (the Iberian peninsula and Scandinavia).

There is, however, plenty of evidence for a radiation of IE language and culture from a central point. Humans made it to east Asia and Australasia by about 50,000 years ago, but those languages are not even closely related to IE. Why would a language family migrate linearly in one direction, but not another, when it clearly radiates? IE which includes Indo-Iranian, Greek, Balto-Slavic (Russian, Polish, Lithuanian), Germanic (that's actually open for debate), Italic, Celtic does not venture much further than India. Sino-Tibetan and Australasian languages do not go much further west than India and Tibet (except Malagasy, which is Austronesian); Turkic, which includes Mongolian and Turkish, may have a common point of origin somewhere in central Asia.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
मैत्रावरुिणः;3402499 said:
Namaste,

What about the Shrī Vedas? Aren't they '100% Indian'?

जय श्री कृष्ण

Not Hindu, anymore, I'm afraid. But so far as I can tell, yes.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
मैत्रावरुिणः;3402499 said:
Namaste,

What about the Shrī Vedas? Aren't they '100% Indian'?

जय श्री कृष्ण

I think the Veda Samhita is 100% Indian, But Veda (Vidya) is not, Veda (Vidya) its for everyone.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Can anyone tell me what is the current scientific scholarly consensus on this theory. Did Veda and the Upanishads originate with in India? or did some other foreign tribe taught them? How old are the Vedas really?

Its important to know these answers as a Sanatana Dharmin I guess.

I don't want any apologetic or biased views please.

Scholarship says no invasion and tends to support migration but defining what type of migration and by whom is more conflicting.

See http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/136588-pre-hinduism-jainism.html

There was some discussion in this thread and references.

Cheers.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Not Hindu, anymore, I'm afraid. But so far as I can tell, yes.

Namaste,

As in: the Vedas are not similar to modern Hinduism? Or, they aren't Hindu in the sense that they are just purely "Vedic" and not the amalgamation we see today?

Regards,
M.V.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
मैत्रावरुिणः;3410131 said:
Namaste,

As in: the Vedas are not similar to modern Hinduism? Or, they aren't Hindu in the sense that they are just purely "Vedic" and not the amalgamation we see today?

Regards,
M.V.

That's not something I can really say. It's been a while since I looked into these issues.

Honestly, if you want my views, you should either start a thread elsewhere, or just PM me for clarifications. I'm technically not allowed to post in this thread, anymore.
 
aryan Invasion theory was Brought by Invaders of india Make the native people of india Loose Respect for their own Civilization.

When the invaders of india Came there first time they saw that India is verry Rich, this is the reason why columbus tried to reach india. all the europeans wanted to have trade with india, they were poor at that time. after invation they destroyed the Indian vedic education system and Promoted many False things to break the confidence of native people.
 
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