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Rethinking Brahman

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Some musings I have been having recently. At the moment I am just speculating about the possibilities as Brahman is so mysterious!

I wonder what does it mean to say Brahman is infinite consciousness? Can infinite consciousness be conscious of itself? It does not seem logically possible because there is nothing separate to be self-aware. So what does infinite consciousness really mean?

Perhaps the Jains have the best answer in how they conceive the ultimate reality as being a reality of pure knowledge, wisdom, bliss and beauty that the soul can attain to and become a siddha, and yet the siddha never loses their individuality and they continue to live on as siddhas and leave the physical world and enter a higher spiritual realm of heavenly and pure beings.

There is indiciation in the Upanishads too that the Bramajnani(knower of Brahman) does not cease to exist after knowing Brahman but rather they continue to exist. Also, it does not actually sound desirable to lose ones individuality and merge into pure and infinite consciousness, I mean what next once that happens? There is no longer a 'you' to self reference. In fact I find it impossible to imagine losing my individuality ever, even after attaining to Brahman, I still think I would continue to exist.

This has got me thinking what if Brahman is simply the pure logic of existence and is a pure state of beingness that jagat, jiva and ishvara are all situated in. What if Jagat, jiva and ishvara are all eternally existent entities? Then us jivas would never lose our individuality and the universe would forever exist and never come to an end.

Imagine if it was all just one infinite existence with infinite possibilities and infinite experiences to be had. The Jiva transmigrates constantly throughout this universe of infinite possibilities and infinite experiences, experiencing, growing, learning forever.

It is so difficult imagining there is ever any end point. Does that mean the Jiva will transmigrate forever?
 
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Maya3

Well-Known Member
There is indiciation in the Upanishads too that the Bramajnani(knower of Brahman) does not cease to exist after knowing Brahman but rather they continue to exist. Also, it does not actually sound desirable to lose ones individuality and merge into pure and infinite consciousness, I mean what next once that happens? There is no longer a 'you' to self reference. In fact I find it impossible to imagine losing my individuality ever, even after attaining to Brahman, I still think I would continue to exist.

You would still be you, only ALL of you.

Maya
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
And what next after that? Do I spend an eternity as the ALL me? Sounds incredibly boring :D


After a mighty, mighty long time the jiva is said to merge into Brahman. If you still have the craving for personal experience you have not reached the point of moksha just yet.

In fact, jiva was Brahman all along. In Brahman state, we can't really get our human brains about what that experience is like; Sat-chit-ananda. Brahman is Changeless. Time is something we now experience as part of Maya.

The term 'boring' implies that you still experience things in 'time' and nothing changes. 'Boring' is a concept that can only apply to beings in the grip of maya.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
I understand this, but if you actually look at the word experience there cannot really be any experience without variation. If you were just constantly flatlining in a single unchanging state experience would cease. Thus merger into Brahman sounds like unconsciousness as opposed to consciousness. If it is indeed is that, then isn't that like permanent death and why would that be desirable?
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Some musings I have been having recently. At the moment I am just speculating about the possibilities as Brahman is so mysterious!

I wonder what does it mean to say Brahman is infinite consciousness? Can infinite consciousness be conscious of itself? It does not seem logically possible because there is nothing separate to be self-aware. So what does infinite consciousness really mean?

Perhaps the Jains have the best answer in how they conceive the ultimate reality as being a reality of pure knowledge, wisdom, bliss and beauty that the soul can attain to and become a siddha, and yet the siddha never loses their individuality and they continue to live on as siddhas and leave the physical world and enter a higher spiritual realm of heavenly and pure beings.

There is indiciation in the Upanishads too that the Bramajnani(knower of Brahman) does not cease to exist after knowing Brahman but rather they continue to exist. Also, it does not actually sound desirable to lose ones individuality and merge into pure and infinite consciousness, I mean what next once that happens? There is no longer a 'you' to self reference. In fact I find it impossible to imagine losing my individuality ever, even after attaining to Brahman, I still think I would continue to exist.

This has got me thinking what if Brahman is simply the pure logic of existence and is a pure state of beingness that jagat, jiva and ishvara are all situated in. What if Jagat, jiva and ishvara are all eternally existent entities? Then us jivas would never lose our individuality and the universe would forever exist and never come to an end.

Imagine if it was all just one infinite existence with infinite possibilities and infinite experiences to be had. The Jiva transmigrates constantly throughout this universe of infinite possibilities and infinite experiences, experiencing, growing, learning forever.

It is so difficult imagining there is ever any end point. Does that mean the Jiva will transmigrate forever?

I believe Brahman is Infinite and eternal and existence on its own. Atmans are infinite individual eternal things on their own, Prakriti is eternal and is this Physical world on its own.

I think Brahman is omnipresent, surrounding prakriti and Atman externally and internally.

I think Atman is separate from Brahman and Prakriti. Atman is Sat Chit, Prakriti is Sat and Brahman is Sat Chit Anand.

Brahman is not the creator or Prakriri or Atman.

I think Brahman Exists because Prakriti does not have the attribute of CHIT and cant form existence on its own and Brahman is the ordainer of the eternal Laws that Govern Prakriti.

I support my belief with:

Rigveda 1.164.20

Two living entities – Ishwar and Soul – remain together like friends always. Similarly another entity (Nature) exists like a tree with branches. One of the living entities – the soul – tastes the fruits on the branches. The other entity – Ishwar – is completely away from this and hence never gets into worldly things.
 

En'me

RightBehindEveryoneElse
Curiously enough, if you wanted to go beyond both Nirguna and Saguna Brahman, wouldn't that be Para Brahman, which I don't even know what it is?

Haha.

Aside from that, perhaps Yogis who came after the first Rishis, saw some holes to these early philosophies contained within the Mukya Upanishads, perhaps in a smiliar way you are seeing right now, and decided to explore and then later try to improve these theories through Puranas and similiar texts, for example?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
My understanding fwiw,...

Brahman is a label that represents the Absolute Reality of Cosmic Being, but the Reality itself that is represented by the concept of Brahman is ineffable.

Being ineffable, there is nothing a mortal can know or say that can be anything other than an expression of faith, mystical insight, speculation, etc..

That said, the ancient traditions and even modern mystical revelation does use conceptual language as an expedient to provide us with an 'idea' beyond just a label.

One piece that I like came from reading an article by Abhinavagupta once and went something like this..

Brahman is One and can't be confined by any space, can't be affected by any time, can't be circumscribed by any limits, can't be described by any words, and can't be known by any knowledge.

Since that time, the very idea of trying to conceptualize the reality represented by Brahman does not arise in my mind for my understanding now allows that there are design limits on a dualistic mind that prevent it from apprehending reality in a non-dualistic manner.

However there is the way of Dhyana which may allow the mortal, if and when their mind has ceased all thought processes, to be at one with the One...Brahman.

That is what religion is all about, retying, reintegrating, reuniting, etc..
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And what next after that? Do I spend an eternity as the ALL me? Sounds incredibly boring :D
All of you includes me, George Washington and your great great grandson. In fact, inasmuch as there's only a single consciousness in the Universe and no time, you'd experience the entire lives of every living thing that ever lived or will live anywhere and anywhen in the Universe -- simultaneously.
That's why they call it cosmic consciousness.
 

DanielR

Active Member
All of you includes me, George Washington and your great great grandson. In fact, inasmuch as there's only a single consciousness in the Universe and no time, you'd experience the entire lives of every living thing that ever lived or will live anywhere and anywhen in the Universe -- simultaneously.
That's why they call it cosmic consciousness.


Hi seyorni,

what happens when the experience gets exhausted, does it start from beginning again??
 

DanielR

Active Member
actually that sounds scary, there are some things I wouldn't want to experience :lol:

ps: doesn't 'experience' imply duality??
 
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En'me

RightBehindEveryoneElse
All of you includes me, George Washington and your great great grandson. In fact, inasmuch as there's only a single consciousness in the Universe and no time, you'd experience the entire lives of every living thing that ever lived or will live anywhere and anywhen in the Universe -- simultaneously.
That's why they call it cosmic consciousness.

And why do you think Yogis recommended this?

Hi seyorni,

what happens when the experience gets exhausted, does it start from beginning again??

The universe is cyclic, probably. This is not indicated in the Shruti its self, but by modern science. However, neither is it indicated in the Shruti that the universe has a complete end. Maya/Prakriti nevers stops creating/sustaining the material world, insofar as I understand.

3124280 said:
ps: doesn't 'experience' imply duality??

Man, what is this I don't even... :p
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
The universe is cyclic, probably. This is not indicated in the Shruti its self, but by modern science. However, neither is it indicated in the Shruti that the universe has a complete end. Maya/Prakriti nevers stops creating/sustaining the material world, insofar as I understand.

Hmmm, there was never a beginning to the Cosmos and there will never be an ending, it is only the physical manifested expression that is perceived as having beginnings and endings, for the cycle of creation, preservation and destruction are the eternal lot for the infinite material things existing in the infinitude of existence, but not the transcendent source.

While Brahman is immanent in the manifested cosmos, Brahman is simultaneously transcendent. Please note,..the concepts of immanent and transcendent in this case are used only as an expedient to convey to the dualistic mortal mind the apparent perceived distinction between omnipresent spirit and manifested matter, however in reality there is only One Reality,...Brahman.

He is the Eternal underlying Unity among things that pass away, pure Consciousness of conscious beings. —Upanishads
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
actually that sounds scary, there are some things I wouldn't want to experience :lol:

ps: doesn't 'experience' imply duality??
The duality is an artifact of certain levels of consciousness. Once you expand your consciousness you watch the world as you'd watch a scarey movie from 3rd-state. The illusion is obvious.

If you're experiencing then there is subject-object duality, but consciousness will transcend even this illusion. By 7th-state there is absolute Unity.
 

DanielR

Active Member
Is the 7th state, experiencing everything (to quote Seyorni: all lives that were, are and will be, all possibilities) simultaneously?? Or would that still be 3rd state?

Because in your other post you said cosmic consciousness (Brahman) is experiencing all lives simultaneously so I assume you mean this 7th state consciousness here, am I right :) ?

btw: sorry Seyorni, this would be my last question, I appreciate your help


Edit:

Are these the different states of Consciousness??

1. Deep Sleep
2. Dream
3. Waking
4. Soul consciousness
5. Cosmic Consciousness
6. Divine Consciousness
7. Brahman or Unity consciousness

found this on a page about Deepak Chopra!

And State 7 Consciousness would be experiencing all lives simultaneously?
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
okay, thanks, that makes sense :D
Sorry. sometimes I get carried away with technicalities. Preaching to the choir, as it were.:eek:

Is the 7th state, experiencing everything (to quote Seyorni: all lives that were, are and will be, all possibilities) simultaneously?? Or would that still be 3rd state?

Because in your other post you said cosmic consciousness (Brahman) is experiencing all lives simultaneously so I assume you mean this 7th state consciousness here, am I right :) ?

btw: sorry Seyorni, this would be my last question, I appreciate your help


Edit:

Are these the different states of Consciousness??

1. Deep Sleep
2. Dream
3. Waking
4. Soul consciousness
5. Cosmic Consciousness
6. Divine Consciousness
7. Brahman or Unity consciousness

found this on a page about Deepak Chopra!

And State 7 Consciousness would be experiencing all lives simultaneously?
All everything simultaneously.
Trying to describe undifferentiated unity is above my pay grade, I'm afraid. I can't conceive it, and I suspect terms like "experiencing" might be imputing a 'quality' that wouldn't apply to it.

Take these numbered hierarchies and consciousness terms with a grain of salt, Daniel. There are many different systems. I'm just referring to one I'm familiar with. Others may chop Reality up differently. The field could use some further research. :yes:

What we can speak of, with some confidence, are the 'realities' we do experience:
We all dream, and when we wake up it becomes obvious that our dreams were illusions incompatible with the natural laws of our waking reality. But our waking state is equally incompatible with the Reality described by physics. It's equally a dream.
Our senses deliver identical electrochemical impulses to our brains, which somehow sorts them into five abstract impressions or perspectives bearing little resemblance to actual Reality, but sufficient to allow us to navigate.

These expanded states are hyperrealities people occasionally wake into for one reason or another. Their descriptions are remarkably similar worldwide, and seem to describe a multidimensional reality more reminiscent of a quantum-relativistic cosmology than the reality we currently experience.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Are these the different states of Consciousness??

1. Deep Sleep
2. Dream
3. Waking
4. Soul consciousness
5. Cosmic Consciousness
6. Divine Consciousness
7. Brahman or Unity consciousness

found this on a page about Deepak Chopra!

And State 7 Consciousness would be experiencing all lives simultaneously?

Deepak Chopra is a wealthy new age business cult figure, best to avoid the shallow and enter into the deep oneness of things...

He is obviously knowingly pandering to the western materialist approach of the society in which he is enriching himself, which is the reversal for the ancient tradition concerning the first three states of consciousness, which has waking state consciousness as the first, dream the second, dreamless the third,...

Try reading the Mandukya Upanishad.
 
Brahman means perhaps knowing, that there is the unknowable in a manner which needs no further. It seems, when we do not know like this, that is what makes us further our not knowing, because we feel, and think, towards this situation, being in the situation.
 
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