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Did Jesus say he was God???

Shermana

Heretic
That's it I don't debate in obsessive hostile word fights. It's all yours.
Excellent. Now perhaps you'd like to see the things you said about me and fix your own projection issues.

You are staring to really disturb me with all this hostility
You haven't been hostile?

But seriously, if you don't want to actually debate or quote your own sources or address details without complaining about "Magnifying every contention", don't post in debate threads. Stick to the DIRs. You can accuse me of being obsessive all you want, but that's because I am demonstrating that whatever you commented is not right. You have accused me of not "wanting there to be an answer", you have said I "Triviliaize the momentous", these are all non-responses and personal comments. You have written off my valid critiques as "inappropriate resistance", and "stupid" so what's the difference? When you learn to actually defend a position and not deflect legitimate counterpoints with personal comments, maybe I'll be nicer. But until then, you have not actually bothered to address the contentions, only attack them while restating the same Rhetoric that is being critiqued as if it's an answer in itself.

The fact remains, the word "Essence" is not Scripturally part of any Trinity definition, it doesn't even have a concrete meaning, it most likely refers to Material Substance and not Characteristics, and Jesus was not necessarily NOT created. Insisting that Jesus was not Created, or that "Essence" refers necessarily to characteristic qualities instead of Material composition, as if Jesus has these same qualities necessarily without a discussion from the text, insisting that Aquinas "meant something else" when he clearly was talking about Essence, refusing to address what William Lane Craig even says, posting the same Trinitarian rhetoric about "persons" (another vague non-answer issue) calling it "Simple" and "obvious" and dismissing valid criticisms of it as "stupid" and "inappropriate" is all going to cause some friction, please understand that. That's why I said post in the DIR. If all you want to do is criticize criticism for being critical, this is not the place to do it. Otherwise, fallacies and fallacious reasoning are not immune to "resistance".
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
Excellent. Now perhaps you'd like to see the things you said about me and fix your own projection issues.

You haven't been hostile?

But seriously, if you don't want to actually debate or quote your own sources or address details without complaining about "Magnifying every contention", don't post in debate threads. Stick to the DIRs. You can accuse me of being obsessive all you want, but that's because I am demonstrating that whatever you commented is not right. You have accused me of not "wanting there to be an answer", you have said I "Triviliaize the momentous", these are all non-responses and personal comments. You have written off my valid critiques as "inappropriate resistance", and "stupid" so what's the difference? When you learn to actually defend a position and not deflect legitimate counterpoints with personal comments, maybe I'll be nicer. But until then, you have not actually bothered to address the contentions, only attack them while restating the same Rhetoric that is being critiqued as if it's an answer in itself.

The fact remains, the word "Essence" is not Scripturally part of any Trinity definition, it doesn't even have a concrete meaning, it most likely refers to Material Substance and not Characteristics, and Jesus was not necessarily NOT created. Insisting that Jesus was not Created, or that "Essence" refers necessarily to characteristic qualities instead of Material composition, as if Jesus has these same qualities necessarily without a discussion from the text, insisting that Aquinas "meant something else" when he clearly was talking about Essence, refusing to address what William Lane Craig even says, posting the same Trinitarian rhetoric about "persons" (another vague non-answer issue) calling it "Simple" and "obvious" and dismissing valid criticisms of it as "stupid" and "inappropriate" is all going to cause some friction, please understand that. That's why I said post in the DIR. If all you want to do is criticize criticism for being critical, this is not the place to do it. Otherwise, fallacies and fallacious reasoning are not immune to "resistance".
You are still going!!!!! You should make a 1 on 1 debate thread between you and you. I kid, I kid.
 

Shermana

Heretic
You should make a 1 on 1 debate thread between you and you. I kid, I kid.
That would be interesting since I could imitate a Trinitarian with 99% accuracy. I could bring up every defense for every fallacy that way.

How about a 1 and 1 between you and me on the Trinity instead? That way you could show how "stupid" my "inappropriate responses" are.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
That would be interesting since I could imitate a Trinitarian with 99% accuracy. I could bring up every defense for every fallacy that way.

How about a 1 and 1 between you and me on the Trinity instead? That way you could show how "stupid" my "inappropriate responses" are.
I do not know what part of "I don't care" or "I have no position that I defend" is not getting through.
If you deny Jesus as the messiah predicted in the old testament then maybe that would be worth the trouble. Give me a short list of your positions and I will pick one to argue over if you want. I do not care enough about this one to bother.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Well if Jesus(P) is a mediator then clearly he(p) isn't god.
If he(p) is god he is not a mediator since god would be speaking directly.

The most funny argument i find is '''saviour'' well muslims do belief that Jesus(p) is the saviour however where did Jesus(p) claim to save you from your sins?
Did he(p) not tell people to uphold the law..
Did he(p) not say that everyone is judge for hes own accord?

I believe a mediator is that which goes between two parties. I believe Jesus is an apparent mediator because God is not speaking directly but through Jesus. I believe your logic only works if all three are human persons.

It was enunciated by John the Baptist: John 1:29 On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world! Also the name Yeshuah means Yahweh saves. This is what Jesus says: John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.


I believe that is correct but I also believe that telling people that can't save them from sin. I believe I can teestify to that affect.

I don't believe I have seen that but I am willing to view a verse if you have one.


 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.


Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

Regardless of all those quotes, I do not see a single unequivocal and unambiguous statement of Jesus(pbuh) stating something along the line of 'I am God, worship me'. One would think if God came down to this earth, at least, He would proclaim that in plain and simple language.

For example, like the Qur'an states :
"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (Al Quran, 112:1-4)"
OR
"That is Allah , your Lord; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things." (Al Qur'an 6:102)

On the contrary, Jesus(pbuh), unequivocally and unambiguously states : "The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (Mark 12:29)
Notice how Jesus(pbuh) said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty.

So how you take some ambiguous statements which are open to manipulation and different interpretation OVER a clear and unambiguous statement is really beyond me.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Regardless of all those quotes, I do not see a single unequivocal and unambiguous statement of Jesus(pbuh) stating something along the line of 'I am God, worship me'. One would think if God came down to this earth, at least, He would proclaim that in plain and simple language.
I have a view that would allow this. I do not think that Jesus being God or not is an issue that needs resolution. I must believe in him as savior and become born again whether he is or is not God. That might explain why he was not yelling "I am God, worship me" from the roof tops. I regard the argument for the trinity and the argument against it as equally strong. I only take exception to arbitrary tests to determine the issue. I do not think "I am God worship me" is a legitamite test. He was called Immanuel which means God with us. He did accept worship. He did claim to be able to forgive sin. I do not find it necessary that he should say that I just do not like that test. I think Deedat was obsessed with that arbitrary test. Most things in life do not declare what they are and yet we all still know what they are.

For example, like the Qur'an states :
"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (Al Quran, 112:1-4)"
OR
"That is Allah , your Lord; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things." (Al Qur'an 6:102)
That is a statement about God not a statement from God. The BIble contains both.


On the contrary, Jesus(pbuh), unequivocally and unambiguously states : "The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (Mark 12:29)
IF the Lord is God and he is called Lord about a million times that would make him God. One has many many meanings. Many singular things are composed of multiples of other things. Several cows are one heard. Matter exists in three states. It goes on and on. Keep in mind I am not saying the Trinity is true but just that it can't be ruled out, and doesn't make a huge difference either way.


Notice how Jesus(pbuh) said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty.
Jesus had many missions on Earth. One of the most important was to be a role model for us. He there for adopted many commonalities with us. He assumed a dependant status for our benefit. If he did not he would not have been an example to us. It also says he existed before the foundation of the Earth and created everything. THis is no mere man we are discussing.

So how you take some ambiguous statements which are open to manipulation and different interpretation OVER a clear and unambiguous statement is really beyond me.
I did not see a statement that he was not God in any clear and unambiguos way stated. I consider both sides equally strong.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
I have a view that would allow this. I do not think that Jesus being God or not is an issue that needs resolution. I must believe in him as savior and become born again whether he is or is not God. That might explain why he was not yelling "I am God, worship me" from the roof tops. I regard the argument for the trinity and the argument against it as equally strong. I only take exception to arbitrary tests to determine the issue. I do not think "I am God worship me" is a legitamite test. He was called Immanuel which means God with us. He did accept worship. He did claim to be able to forgive sin. I do not find it necessary that he should say that I just do not like that test. I think Deedat was obsessed with that arbitrary test. Most things in life do not declare what they are and yet we all still know what they are.

"I have a view that would allow this." - that alone should have been enough to dismiss your entire response but I'll respond to you anyway. You can think all you want - but any sane person knows that an All Loving God would make things simple for people at least the very basic tenets of faith . If he really meant 3 in 1, he would have stated that in clear and unambiguous way - or at the very least He wouldn't confuse people by stating otherwise (that God is One).

That is a statement about God not a statement from God. The BIble contains both.

The Holy Qur'an is a verbatim word of God - everything in it is God's word.

So the first one is God asking Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) to say :"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (Al Quran, 112:1-4)"

and the second one is God is stating directly: "But they have attributed to Allah partners - the jinn, while He has created them - and have fabricated for Him sons and daughters without knowledge. Exalted is He and high above what they describe. [He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing. That is Allah , your Lord; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things." (Al Qur'an 6:100-102)

IF the Lord is God and he is called Lord about a million times that would make him God. One has many many meanings. Many singular things are composed of multiples of other things. Several cows are one heard. Matter exists in three states. It goes on and on. Keep in mind I am not saying the Trinity is true but just that it can't be ruled out, and doesn't make a huge difference either way.

Huh ? How do you read 'The Lord our God, the Lord is one' in any other way ? Only magic can make it read it as 'The Lord our God, the Lord is one (but in three confusing parts)' (God forbid).

Jesus had many missions on Earth. One of the most important was to be a role model for us. He there for adopted many commonalities with us. He assumed a dependant status for our benefit. If he did not he would not have been an example to us. It also says he existed before the foundation of the Earth and created everything. THis is no mere man we are discussing.
I see, but as the true Role model he forgot to mention that you should worship some other confusing parts of the 1 God ? Oh boy - are you saying Jesus created everything ? So Jesus Created a replica of himself as the Son(God), then the Holy Spirit and then once again the man Jesus via Mary(Created Himself through another Creation of Him) ? Then He killed himself and went back to Himself (Yet repeating to Himself 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me')? I don't think you wanna go that path. I'll leave it at that.


I did not see a statement that he was not God in any clear and unambiguos way stated. I consider both sides equally strong.

First of all, there is a huge fallacy in that argument. Jesus never stated He is not a Hindu either. So does that mean we can claim He was a Hindu ? There are millions of other things He did not claim that He wasn't. But there is one thing that He clearly stated and you ignore that.

But even after that I'll tell you that He actually did make it clear in the following statements of his :
"17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." (Mark 10)

He clearly states that He is not Good enough to be God. How can Jesus be God and not Good ? And when you add that up with : "The Lord our God, the Lord is one". The only unambiguous and clear conclusion is God is One and He is the Greatest.

Peace.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
"I have a view that would allow this." - that alone should have been enough to dismiss your entire response but I'll respond to you anyway. You can think all you want - but any sane person knows that an All Loving God would make things simple for people at least the very basic tenets of faith . If he really meant 3 in 1, he would have stated that in clear and unambiguous way - or at the very least He wouldn't confuse people by stating otherwise (that God is One).
That makes no sense. We are not required to repeat mantras continuously. We do not have to know whether Jesus is God or was only empowered by God. Our method of salvation is far less trivial and far more profound than chanting whatever we are told to believe. I can and have been saved based on the merits of what Christ did. Not on some slogan I was told to believe.



The Holy Qur'an is a verbatim word of God - everything in it is God's word.
Is that why it says it is pure Arabic yet contains hundreds of words that existed previously in other cultures, has stories verbatum from far older and known heretical texts, or complete butchery of stories contained in the far earlier and more reliable Bible. Etc......I do not share your views. If you had said that that is what you claim it to be I could have just accepted that.



So the first one is God asking Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) to say :"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (Al Quran, 112:1-4)"
No it is some words found in a suspicious book written by a very suspicious man.



and the second one is God is stating directly: "But they have attributed to Allah partners - the jinn, while He has created them - and have fabricated for Him sons and daughters without knowledge. Exalted is He and high above what they describe. [He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing. That is Allah , your Lord; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things." (Al Qur'an 6:100-102)
I am not sure why you think a non Muslim would care what the Quran says on the issue. Nor what you say it says on top of that. I do not speak against the Quran for effect but to illustrate how little effect it has concerning me. I do not believe the Quran has a divine source, I hope that does not offend you, but will not change my mind regardless.


Huh ? How do you read 'The Lord our God, the Lord is one' in any other way ? Only magic can make it read it as 'The Lord our God, the Lord is one (but in three confusing parts)' (God forbid).
Only precommitment to an ideology or an irrational strictly materialistic literal interpretation of "one" prevents it. God is one what. Do you know of a single thing that can be compared to God. You can not transfer things that are derived from natural law as to strictly apply to the supernatural. If you could miracles would not be possible. God can make the dead live yet you think you can put him in a container labeled "one" you invented. Not hardly. If the trinity is true then God is one being composed of three persons. I can't prove it true and honestly admit that. You can't prove it false yet claim you can and use insuffecient means in the attempt.

I see, but as the true Role model he forgot to mention that you should worship some other confusing parts of the 1 God ? Oh boy - are you saying Jesus created everything ? So Jesus Created a replica of himself as the Son(God), then the Holy Spirit and then once again the man Jesus via Mary(Created Himself through another Creation of Him) ? Then He killed himself and went back to Himself (Yet repeating to Himself 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me')? I don't think you wanna go that path. I'll leave it at that.
I can't begin to figure out what you said here.



First of all, there is a huge fallacy in that argument. Jesus never stated He is not a Hindu either. So does that mean we can claim He was a Hindu ? There are millions of other things He did not claim that He wasn't. But there is one thing that He clearly stated and you ignore that.
Did he act like a Hindu. No. Done.

But even after that I'll tell you that He actually did make it clear in the following statements of his :
"17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." (Mark 10)
You might want to research this one a while. I do not claim to know for a fact which interpretation is true. Even scholars are devided. However one prominent one is that Jesus knew this man's heart. Actually I will just copy it here. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And Jesus said unto him,.... The same as in Mat_. 19:17, See Gill on Matthew 19:17.
Why callest thou me good? This is said, not as denying that he was good, or as being angry with him for calling him so, but in order to lead this young man to a true knowledge of him, and his goodness, and even of his proper deity:
there is none good, but one, that is, God; some render it, "but one God", as the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions; and so the words are a proof of the unity of the divine being, and agree with Deuteronomy 6:4, but are not to be understood to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, who, with the Father, are the one God: nor do these words at all militate against the deity of Christ, or prove that he is not God, as the Jew objects (a); seeing this is not to be understood of the person of the Father, in opposition to the Son and Spirit, who are equally good: nor does Christ, in these words, deny himself to be God, but rather tacitly suggests it; since he is good in the same sense in which God is good: in Matthew it is added, "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", Matthew 19:17, this Christ said not as his sense, that the way to eternal life lies in keeping the commandments of the law; but he speaks in the language of the Pharisees, and of this man; and his view is, to bring him to a sense of the impossibility of obtaining eternal life by these things, as the sequel shows: wherefore the above Jew (b) has no reason to confront the followers of Jesus with this passage, as if it was a concession of his, that it is impossible any should be saved without keeping the commands of the law of Moses.

He was kind of saying you call me a teacher yet assign me a title reserved for God. Do you not then know that it is God you are addressing.

I am honest enough unlike many to say I do not know if that is the correct understanding, but without any reason to consider your words more reliable than a well respected scholarly commentary I will stick with him. In truth I have yet to find a satasfactory explenation of this verse however I do not believe yours is correct.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
I think that the idea of Jesus(pbuh) being a deity was later developed true oral sayings and scripture.
Ill show you a couple of scriptures that confirms my view, Mark's Gospel coming from 65-75 AD, Luke and Matthews Gospel between and then we have John's gospel ranging from 90 to 100 AD.

Christian scholars and historians belief that Mark (The oldest Gospel) was a source to use by Matthew and Luke in the opposition in there own gospels. Now that is natural if someone has written an gospel your going to write a other one by using the existence document and to bring out the message you would like to have.
Some Christians Scholars agree that Matthew and Luke made ''improvements'' by Mark's gospel with improvements i mean developing the idea of Jesus(pbuh) being a deity.
I think the ''Improvements'' are very important ill show you a couple that i know:

For example in Mark's gospel someone addresses Jesus(pbuh) as Rabi such in mark chapter 9 verse 5 however in Matthew chapter 17 verse 4 the same incident you can compare them side by side the same person refers Jesus as lord. So in the earlier gospel he is called Rabi(teacher) and in the newer one he is called lord. Or compare mark 4 verse 38 where they call him Teacher and again in Matthew its Lord same incident.

There are improvements what we find in the newer gospels where Jesus(pbuh) describes him as lord for example in mark 13 verse 35 it says ''master of the house '' compare that with Matthew 24 verse 42 where he allegedly says ''your Lord'' again same incident.

There are later improvement that calls Jesus(pbuh) as a son of god for example in Mark chapter 8 verse 29 Peter calls him ''the Messiah'' but compare that with Matthew chapter 16 verse 16 where Peter replies with ''your the messiah the son of the living God''. so the newer gospel here insured ''the son of the living god'' what is admitted by many scholars who worked on this.

There are later improvements where Jesus(pbuh) named God by hes name in Mark and later in Matthew its Father. Mark Chapter 3 verse 35 says ''Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother'' if we compare that with Matthew 12 verse 50 it says ''For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother." So in the oldest Gospel its god and the newer one its Father.

There are also later improvements to reduce the emphasis of One-God by Jesus(pbuh) in Mark its ''Jesus answered, "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one'' Wherein Matthew deleted the first commandment from Deuteronomy and has it as this ''And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the great and first commandment.''
So here in the newer gospel that of Matthew the first commandment is thrown out the sayings of Jesus(pbuh) so Matthew has it all wrong since the first commandment isn't ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'' just read Deuteronomy or the sayings of Jesus(pbuh) in Mark.

Now i can go on and on i didn't even quote John once but he is the most simple to point out since he is the latest gospel wherein he is describes as a super deity.
I am not claiming that who ever wrote Mark's gospel didn't belief Jesus(pbuh) was god i am simply making the argument that the story was improved over and over starting at the beginning not to forget that Paul had much influences in the Christian Community and scriptures.
 
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loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
That makes no sense. We are not required to repeat mantras continuously. We do not have to know whether Jesus is God or was only empowered by God. Our method of salvation is far less trivial and far more profound than chanting whatever we are told to believe. I can and have been saved based on the merits of what Christ did. Not on some slogan I was told to believe.

You are fine. Looks like you are following what you believe - that is, you don't have to go by anything the Bible states ... so you can do whatever you want. Awesome.

Is that why it says it is pure Arabic yet contains hundreds of words that existed previously in other cultures, has stories verbatum from far older and known heretical texts, or complete butchery of stories contained in the far earlier and more reliable Bible. Etc......I do not share your views. If you had said that that is what you claim it to be I could have just accepted that.

No it is some words found in a suspicious book written by a very suspicious man.

Once again, they are your baseless claims and not facts. So I'll just ignore them.

I am not sure why you think a non Muslim would care what the Quran says on the issue. Nor what you say it says on top of that. I do not speak against the Quran for effect but to illustrate how little effect it has concerning me. I do not believe the Quran has a divine source, I hope that does not offend you, but will not change my mind regardless.

No offense taken, to you is yours and to me is mine. The Qur'anic quotes were stated to demonstrate how God states in the Qur'an in unambiguous and clear terms Who we should worship just like in the Bible but which you still choose to ignore.

Only precommitment to an ideology or an irrational strictly materialistic literal interpretation of "one" prevents it. God is one what. Do you know of a single thing that can be compared to God. You can not transfer things that are derived from natural law as to strictly apply to the supernatural. If you could miracles would not be possible. God can make the dead live yet you think you can put him in a container labeled "one" you invented. Not hardly. If the trinity is true then God is one being composed of three persons. I can't prove it true and honestly admit that. You can't prove it false yet claim you can and use insuffecient means in the attempt.

Literal interpretation of 'One' - and I invented it - WOW ? Let's see ...

Mark 12 NIV - The Parable of the Tenants - Jesus then - Bible Gateway
Under the section titled 'The Greatest Commandment'
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e]
....
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
....
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

So Even Jesus(pbuh) thought that God is One really means God is One and the person who believes in that, is close to the kingdom of God. Rather you are the one interpreting and inventing lies against it.

And yet again, I'll give you one more Clear, Unequivocal and Unambiguous statement saying 'There is no god but One God'.
"We know that 'An idol is nothing at all in the world' and that 'There is no God but one.' 1 Corinthians 8:4

But feel free to ignore it and interpret it as God is 3 in 1.:eek:

I can't begin to figure out what you said here.
Precisely my point - once you say 'Jesus created everything' nothing else will make sense from that point on wards. :clap


Did he act like a Hindu. No. Done.

Did he act like God. No. Done.
God doesn't pray to God, God doesn't ask help from God, God doesn't worship God. God doesn't die. Want more ?

You might want to research this one a while. I do not claim to know for a fact which interpretation is true. Even scholars are devided. However one prominent one is that Jesus knew this man's heart. Actually I will just copy it here. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And Jesus said unto him,.... The same as in Mat_. 19:17, See Gill on Matthew 19:17.
Why callest thou me good? This is said, not as denying that he was good, or as being angry with him for calling him so, but in order to lead this young man to a true knowledge of him, and his goodness, and even of his proper deity:
there is none good, but one, that is, God; some render it, "but one God", as the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions; and so the words are a proof of the unity of the divine being, and agree with Deuteronomy 6:4, but are not to be understood to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, who, with the Father, are the one God: nor do these words at all militate against the deity of Christ, or prove that he is not God, as the Jew objects (a); seeing this is not to be understood of the person of the Father, in opposition to the Son and Spirit, who are equally good: nor does Christ, in these words, deny himself to be God, but rather tacitly suggests it; since he is good in the same sense in which God is good: in Matthew it is added, "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", Matthew 19:17, this Christ said not as his sense, that the way to eternal life lies in keeping the commandments of the law; but he speaks in the language of the Pharisees, and of this man; and his view is, to bring him to a sense of the impossibility of obtaining eternal life by these things, as the sequel shows: wherefore the above Jew (b) has no reason to confront the followers of Jesus with this passage, as if it was a concession of his, that it is impossible any should be saved without keeping the commands of the law of Moses.

He was kind of saying you call me a teacher yet assign me a title reserved for God. Do you not then know that it is God you are addressing.

I am honest enough unlike many to say I do not know if that is the correct understanding, but without any reason to consider your words more reliable than a well respected scholarly commentary I will stick with him. In truth I have yet to find a satasfactory explenation of this verse however I do not believe yours is correct.

You can take any interpretation you like - that is your personal choice - and I wouldn't have any problem with it. However, that doesn't negate the fact that you are taking an ambiguous/manipulative interpretation of a plain and simple statement. Even KJV translates that verse as follows :
"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

Which makes it even clearer that Jesus is referring to the One and Only God(and not himself) as good.

Peace.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
Even the heavenly resurrected Jesus still thinks he has a God over him.- Revelation 3 v 12

Those words are not in the text. I believe It is a misinterpretation on your part. I believe Jehovah is His own God. I don't understand how a person could think otherwise.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all"

'My Father' obviously doesn't mean 'Me'(Jesus) since he is not his own Father ... so Father is greater than All including me(Jesus).

So which one is it - Father is Greater than All ? or equal to I ?

So it is absolutely ambiguous and more so contradictory.
 

Shermana

Heretic
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.


Which isn't at all saying that Jesus is God.

John 17:21 "Let them be one AS we are one".

It's most clearly just saying that it's a union of purpose and mindset.

Trinitarian scholars are aware of this well.

Commenting on John 10:30, J. H. Bernard, D.D. says in A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to St. John:

“A unity of fellowship, of will, and of purpose between the Father and the Son is a frequent theme in the Fourth Gospel..., and it is tersely and powerfully expressed here; but to press the words so as to make them indicate identity of ousia [Greek for ‘substance,’ ‘essence’], is to introduce thoughts that were not present to the theologians of the first century."[1]

Examining the Trinity: ONE - John 10:30


“‘One’ also expresses the unity between Christ and the Father (Jn 10:30), the union between believers and the Godhead, and the unity which exists among Christians (Jn 17:21; Gal. 3:28). ‘One’ further expresses singleness of purpose” - p. 844, New Bible Dictionary, (2nd ed.), 1982, Tyndale House Publ
.
 

millennium3000

New Member
Jesus lived in heaven as a spirit person before he came to earth. He was God’s first creation, and so he is called the “firstborn” Son of God. (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14) Jesus is the only Son that God created by himself. Jehovah used the prehuman Jesus as his “master worker” in creating all other things in heaven and on earth. (Proverbs 8:22-31; Colossians 1:16, 17) God also used him as His chief spokesman. That is why Jesus is called “the Word.”—John 1:1-3; Revelation 19:13.


2 God sent His Son to the earth by transferring his life to the womb of Mary. So Jesus did not have a human father. That is why he did not inherit any sin or imperfection. God sent Jesus to earth for three reasons: (1) To teach us the truth about God (John 18:37), (2) to maintain perfect integrity, providing a model for us to follow (1 Peter 2:21), and (3) to sacrifice his life to set us free from sin and death. Why was this needed?—Matthew 20:28.

3 By disobeying God’s command, the first man, Adam, committed what the Bible calls “sin.” So God sentenced him to death. (Genesis 3:17-19) He no longer measured up to God’s standards, so he was not perfect anymore. Slowly he grew old and died. Adam passed on sin to all his children. That is why we also grow old, get sick, and die. How could mankind be saved?—Romans 3:23; 5:12.

4 Jesus was a perfect human just like Adam. Unlike Adam, though, Jesus was perfectly obedient to God under even the greatest test. He could therefore sacrifice his perfect human life to pay for Adam’s sin. This is what the Bible refers to as the “ransom.” Adam’s children could thus be released from condemnation to death. All who put their faith in Jesus can have their sins forgiven and receive everlasting life.—1 Timothy 2:5, 6; John 3:16; Romans 5:18, 19.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
What is everyone arguing about here !
: "Is Jesus the son of god" ?
: "Did Jesus ever exist to be the son of some god" ?
: "Did the "Jesus" of Paul's dreams and epilepsy exist" ?
: "Did Petrus/Saul really walk with Paul's "Jesus" " ?
: "If Jesus' body is in heaven with "Jesus"....well.....where" ?
And so on, and so on......a myth within a myth !
~
When all of one's cognition is gone, there will not be cognition !
~
`mud
 
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