Jesus sacrifice and logic

javajo said:

Hebrews 1:3 says, Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Jesus purged our sins by dying on the cross. He also rose again so he did not cease to exist. We still have one God in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is what I believe.

Click to expand...

So the son do exist,he is alive right beside his father,then where is the sacrifice.
who was dead then,jesus died as human but he is also %100 god, moreover he is and the father is one.

My question do you believe and understand jesus rationally or just blindly.
such as being human and god at the same time,then he and the father are also one.

savagewind said:

I don't do that. I believe in a spiritual perception of the law commandments. One of the ten commandments is found at Exodus 20:4-6. "Do not make an image of the Living God". The trinity is an image in my opinion. I do not know why people are fighting about it. I just don't do it.

Click to expand...

Your opinion is mistaken. The passage isn't talking about theological models, it's talking about specific, carved images.

sojourner said:

Your opinion is mistaken. The passage isn't talking about theological models, it's talking about specific, carved images.

Click to expand...

Yup! That is true for them. But according to Revelation I am right. OK?
Revelation 2: 7, 11, 17, 29
Revelation 3: 6, 13, 22
Revelation 13: 9

loverOfTruth said:

Not only that - if Jesus was 100% god and also 100% human - we will have another major problem with the Christian theology. With all due respect, that would invalidate Trinity cause then we will have Quadrinity so to say :
God the Father + Holy Spirit + Jesus the Son as God + Jesus the son as Human

Click to expand...

Yes Exactly true and i hope they could explain how it works.

javajo said:

Hebrews 1:3 says, Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Jesus purged our sins by dying on the cross. He also rose again so he did not cease to exist. We still have one God in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is what I believe.

Click to expand...

Let me get this straight. So God is 3 Persons(father, son(Jesus), holy spirit). So then Jesus is 1 Person of God. So, as Jesus prayed to God the Father, then 1 Person of God prays to another Person of God ? And 1 Person of God(Jesus) needs help from another Person of God(Father) to come back alive while the 3rd Person of God(Holy Spirit) is being a silent spectator? Nice team work.

Moreover, in that case, when Jesus died on the Cross, the world was without a Jesus at least for 3 days. So the world didn't need Jesus for those 3 days. With all due respect, why would we need him now then ?

Peace.

Dear Fear God, I have just came back and found this thread, I will read it all and try to respond the best I can with the limited time I have. In Sha Allah

Well the Christians claim is that the Father is all loving if that is the case why didn't the father take upon the punishment himself or just simply forgive i mean if you have a son would you send him to die instead of you?

Lady B said:

Dear Fear God, I have just came back and found this thread, I will read it all and try to respond the best I can with the limited time I have. In Sha Allah

Click to expand...

Hi Lady B, very glad to hear from you and waiting for your thoughts.

F0uad said:

Well the Christians claim is that the Father is all loving if that is the case why didn't the father take upon the punishment himself or just simply forgive i mean if you have a son would you send him to die instead of you?

Click to expand...

impossible,god is loving and merciful and sending his son as scapegoat to pay for the crazy bad people whom are enjoying doing bad deeds,let me think for a while :banghead3

Wow, many opinions, suppositions and theory here ! I can only respond to these with Biblical scripture. Unfortunately those who do not see scripture as the true word of God will not be convinced of my evidence therein, be it as it may, I will do my best before God and with humbleness try to approach these questions for you utilizing the only way I have been given authority to do so.

I see the big problem you are having with the God of the bible is why? Why would God need to sacrifice his son for sinners? Or why If he can do all by only his voice, did he go this route? Indeed God could ! The problem with this is where is the justice? Given what we know of a Holy God who cannot look at sin, who is a righteous judge, who gave us his holy laws and the punishment of breaking said laws, would we as a created people see his righteousness if he just said OK, I forgive you ?

Let us look to life as we know it and imagine a scene shall we? Lets say there was a man who just lost his son to a vicious killer. It is time to go to the court of law and put the killer on trial for his crimes. We all wait to hear the judges ruling....and Shockingly the judge says to the killer. Well I forgive you, go free....what Justice has been done here? Is this judge righteous? Is this just? What would the father of the victim be feeling towards this judge? Respect? What would the people who have gathered to see this great day of justice be feeling towards this judge? Awe? Well why not? This judge had all the power in his hands, only a word from his mouth and the guilty was set free.let us even imagine the killer was repentant, let us imagine he looked to this father and gave his apologies, let us imagine the father forgave him the murder of his son. Should he be free without consequences? Will he learn from this and live to never kill again? Possibly, but probably not.

With The law of man, we have crime and punishment. With God's law we have sin and the punishment of sin, this is death. We have a Holy righteous God, a just God.

I will continue this in following posts, as I have met my limits here, Thankyou for baring with me, please allow me to give my complete thoughts and support before attacking me in parts, peace

part 2 (following post # 30)

I think I have shown the Rightousness of God in human terms, now let me show you in Biblical scripture may I?

God is holy

1. Isaiah 6:3, "And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.”
2. Rev. 4:8 "And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come."

God is righteous
Neh. 9:32-33, "Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who dost keep covenant and lovingkindness, Do not let all the hardship seem insignificant before Thee, Which has come upon us, our kings, our princes, our priests, our prophets, our fathers, and on all Thy people, From the days of the kings of Assyria to this day. 33“However, Thou art just in all that has come upon us."
2 Thess. 1:6, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you."

Therefore, the Law is in the heart of God and is a reflection of God's character since it is Holy and good.
Rom. 7:12, "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."

Furthermore, to break the Law of God is to offend Him since it is His Law that we break. This sin results in an infinite offense because God is infinite.

Furthermore, it is also right that God punish the Law breaker. To not punish the Law breaker (sinner) is to allow an offense against His holiness to be ignored.
Amos 2:4, "Thus says the Lord, “For three transgressions of Judah and for four I will not revoke its punishment, because they rejected the law of the Lord And have not kept His statutes."
Rom. 4:15, "...for the Law brings about wrath."

God says that the person who sins must die (be punished). The wages of sin is death.
Ezekiel 18:4, "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die."
Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The sinner needs to escape the righteous judgment of God or he will face damnation.
Rom. 1:18, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness."
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

But, no sinner can undo an infinite offense since to please God and make things right, he must obey the Law, which is the standard of God's righteous character.
Gal. 2:16, "...by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

But the sinner cannot fulfill the law because he is sinful (in the flesh).
Rom. 8:3, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son..."
Since the sinner cannot fulfill the law and satisfy God, it follows that only God can do this.

This is simple logic. If we are unable to fulfill the Law, then we will be punished by it. But, since God desires us to be saved, the Law must be satisfied. Since we cannot keep the Law and it must be satisfied, then the only one capable of keeping the Law must keep the Law: God.

Ok I feel I am over writing a bit and will move on to the next point, God's solution and the sacrifice, Bare with me a little more time, thank you



references used. The Bible and website called Christian apoligetics and research ministry.

Ok allow me to continue in part 3 from post #30.

Let me try to answer the question of why it was Christ as a sacrifice.again please know I am only a woman ,human flesh and a sinner, I do not claim to have all the answers, but I do claim God has given us all answers, If we search in His word with humility and vigilance an open heart and much prayer, we shall see him clear.


Let me first give another analogy if I may..
Imagine a man has walked on through life and he has fallen into sin. Imagine this sin is say a huge hole in the ground and he is clawing the dirt in attempt to climb out.

First a man comes to his hold and peers down, he says" try to meditate and when you reach nirvana you will have peace.....
And so he tried and yet could not get himself out.

A second man comes to help him and says, hey down there, this hole does not even exist, and you do not even exist...... This of course did not help the man to get himself out

A 3rd man comes and says " I tell you if you do all these, and pray you will get out of that hole.... And so he tried and he prayed and soon he became weak and weary.

Finally a man came and saw him in the hole and asked him, do you want to be free? He said yes yesssssss... This man climbed down into the hole with him and said" hold onto me, for you have no strength of your own to save yourself" he then drew the man out of the hole and into the light.

" for it is by grace that you are saved, through faith; and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Now let me show you some scripture please.



Jesus is God in flesh.

John 1:1,14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

Jesus was also a man under the Law.

1 Tim. 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
Gal. 4:4-5, "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."

Jesus became sin for us and bore our sins in His body on the cross, thus fulfilling the Law.

2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
Rom. 8:3-4, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith since it was not by our keeping the Law, but by Jesus, God in flesh, who fulfilled the Law and died in our place.

Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
Gal. 3:13, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."
Eph. 5:2, "and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma."

references used. The Bible and website called Christian apoligetics and research ministry.also the man in the hole analogy is not mine but one I have found in yu-tube.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEpoHO_Ox6A

Romans 8:3 does not say he came "as an offering for sin" I think. It says he came about sin. I think it means because of, not for.

Romans 8:3 Greek Texts and Analysis
Strong's Greek: 4012. ???? (peri) -- about, concerning, around (denotes place, cause or subject)

I think it means it was no accident that he has come.

If it is true that The Father sent His Son for the purpose of dying for us, then it would mean a bribe, wouldn't it? God is not evil.

Ok I am done with my summery as I was asked to give by Lover of truth I believe. Now I will try to reply to some questions I think were adressed to me, if not to me, I will respond anyways hehehehe...

FearGod Reply

Could you please inform me what is the meaning of sacrifice?
What sacrifice means to you? and do you think that god need one to be sacrificed (jesus pbuh in our case) to forgive our sins.[/QUOTE]

I believe I have shown you what sacrifice means in scripture, let me show you what it means to me if I may.by means of yet another analogy..... Bare with me please...

There is a man who is the governor, judge and authority in his village. He is very well respected and is blameless in his peoples eyes. His mother however has committed a grave sin, she has committed adultery ...It Has come to him to judge his own mother.He loves his mother, he forgives his mother, yet he must allow she be given the same punishment as any other, so that he not be seen as unjust and biased. And so he sentences his mother to the laws condemnation which is death by hanging.
Of course he is troubled and sorrowful, but he must follow the law, so on the day of punishment, he sees them bring his mother to the rope, he cries out please, please, except me as a substitute for her sin, hang me on the rope you have set for her. And so they agreed, the punishment was given to him and he was hanged in his mothers place. Why would he? Because of his love for her.
The sin was committed, there is punishment for sin, someone must pay for there to be justice. You may ask yourself how is it justice for she is free and he is dead? OK let me show you. Lets say someone has killed your brother and before he is tried and punished he dies peacefully in his sleep. Do you feel justice was done? Now what if the killers father came to you one day and said, dear fear God, I am so sorry for what you have suffered at the hands of my son, will you let me give you some atonement? Maybe money because your brother was a hard worker and now is gone, or maybe some workers, something, anything to help you forgive and heal from your loss?
Do you see how justice can be seen and acquired through sacrifice even from innocence?

These are just some of mine own thoughts in trying to imagine the great sacrifice for all.

savagewind said:

Romans 8:3 does not say he came "as an offering for sin" I think. It says he came about sin. I think it means because of, not for.

Romans 8:3 Greek Texts and Analysis
Strong's Greek: 4012. ???? (peri) -- about, concerning, around (denotes place, cause or subject)

I think it means it was no accident that he has come.

If it is true that The Father sent His Son for the purpose of dying for us, then it would mean a bribe, wouldn't it? God is not evil.

Click to expand...

In all due respect: It is my belief, (I am a Calvinist as you may have surmised)...God Does not react. There is no because. There is no plan B. God did not create us and then decide oh nooooooo, what do I do now ? And react with a plan B, 'Jesus' . This was not a cause and effect, This was his plan from the beginning, whether you believe in foreknowledge or intention, This was not a game of chess for God, in that he does not react to our miscalculated moves.

Lady B said:

Wow, many opinions, suppositions and theory here ! I can only respond to these with Biblical scripture. Unfortunately those who do not see scripture as the true word of God will not be convinced of my evidence therein, be it as it may, I will do my best before God and with humbleness try to approach these questions for you utilizing the only way I have been given authority to do so.

I see the big problem you are having with the God of the bible is why? Why would God need to sacrifice his son for sinners? Or why If he can do all by only his voice, did he go this route? Indeed God could ! The problem with this is where is the justice? Given what we know of a Holy God who cannot look at sin, who is a righteous judge, who gave us his holy laws and the punishment of breaking said laws, would we as a created people see his righteousness if he just said OK, I forgive you ?

Let us look to life as we know it and imagine a scene shall we? Lets say there was a man who just lost his son to a vicious killer. It is time to go to the court of law and put the killer on trial for his crimes. We all wait to hear the judges ruling....and Shockingly the judge says to the killer. Well I forgive you, go free....what Justice has been done here? Is this judge righteous? Is this just? What would the father of the victim be feeling towards this judge? Respect? What would the people who have gathered to see this great day of justice be feeling towards this judge? Awe? Well why not? This judge had all the power in his hands, only a word from his mouth and the guilty was set free.let us even imagine the killer was repentant, let us imagine he looked to this father and gave his apologies, let us imagine the father forgave him the murder of his son. Should he be free without consequences? Will he learn from this and live to never kill again? Possibly, but probably not.

With The law of man, we have crime and punishment. With God's law we have sin and the punishment of sin, this is death. We have a Holy righteous God, a just God.

I will continue this in following posts, as I have met my limits here, Thankyou for baring with me, please allow me to give my complete thoughts and support before attacking me in parts, peace

Click to expand...

And because god is a righteous judge then i think he should punish each one according to his bad deeds and no one should bear the sins of the others.

[youtube]2c1BrNteUHE[/youtube]
The Original Sin? - YouTube

savagewind said:

I think the death of The Son of God is not payment, it is a sign. Without the sign God has provided for the World to be saved the World would always remain spiritually dark. I do not know how it works, but I know it is not payment. God is not evil.

Click to expand...

God is far from evil dear friend, I would not use the word payment, I would rather use atonement, or an propitiation for our sin and seperation from a Holy God.

“Whom God hath set forth to be a PROPITIATION through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25). The word “propitiation” means “to appease one’s wrath.” “Appeased” means “to make peace with.” Humanity had sinned. God was angered. God’s holiness demanded justice. Humanity could not redeem himself and was at enmity (hostility) with God. Humanity had become the enemy of God because of sin.

Lady B said:

In all due respect: It is my belief, (I am a Calvinist as you may have surmised)...God Does not react. There is no because. There is no plan B. God did not create us and then decide oh nooooooo, what do I do now ? And react with a plan B, 'Jesus' . This was not a cause and effect, This was his plan from the beginning, whether you believe in foreknowledge or intention, This was not a game of chess for God, in that he does not react to our miscalculated moves.

Click to expand...

OK? (I am not anything but me) I do not believe it was because God reacted. I believe it was God's purpose from the beginning, yes. I do too. There existed no possibility that His Son would not be killed. It was in human nature to do so. Now it is not.

Lady B said:

God is far from evil dear friend, I would not use the word payment, I would rather use atonement, or an propitiation for our sin and seperation from a Holy God.

“Whom God hath set forth to be a PROPITIATION through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25). The word “propitiation” means “to appease one’s wrath.” “Appeased” means “to make peace with.” Humanity had sinned. God was angered. God’s holiness demanded justice. Humanity could not redeem himself and was at enmity (hostility) with God. Humanity had become the enemy of God because of sin.

Click to expand...

I think where we differ is that you believe man was once sinless? Is that correct? I do not believe that.

FearGod said:

And because god is a righteous judge then i think he should punish each one according to his bad deeds and no one should bear the sins of the others.

Click to expand...

I agree that the sinner should not expect, ask or desire another to pay his debts, but Jesus was not asked, he offered himself. No one took his life, he laid it down himself and said so. When people ask me why do you have a tender heart for Jews, when they killed your own Christ? I answer, no one had any power to Take from God but what he freely gave us. If Christ himself asked them to be forgiven, "they know not what they do" How can we then hate or blame a mere people for the act of God alone.