FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
A discussion between Lad B and FearGod regarding that Jesus sacrifice is needed to pay for our bad deeds (sins) which is quoted from another thread
FearGod Reply
Thank you Lady B for your explanation.
Sins are bad things,so who make sins are actually a bad person,such as killing,stealing...etc.
Jesus pbuh is a sinless man,which means he is of perfect morals.
So now in order to save the bad people who do sins,god should sacrifice a good person.
in other words if there is one country with many bad people who are criminals,then to let those criminals free,we should bring the most innocent person who never did any crime and to kill him so the others will be free from their bad deeds and also they can go in doing sins since that the innocent one had already being killed paying for their awful deeds.
Lady B,am i wrong,or should i understand it in a different way.
FearGod Reply
Could you please inform me what is the meaning of sacrifice?
What sacrifice means to you? and do you think that god need one to be sacrificed (jesus pbuh in our case) to forgive our sins.
Do you think god got no other choices to save us except by sacrificing his son.
Can god forgive our sins without a sacrifice,or god can't do it except if there is a sacrifice.
Originally Posted by Lady B
In all due respect: let us reason together shall we? If God foretold in the old testament what he would do, that his son would die on a tree, that he would be a ransom for all our sin, do you really think in the end he would change his mind? And deceive us all? Christ had one purpose, to redeem us, to propitiate, to save what was lost. The plan was God's alone. He would not chicken out in last minute and give a substitute. Jesus was God and man, he humbled himself to become man, therefore he had a human fear of the death and torture he was about to endure, was not sin, for he never sinned, it was a human emotion. However he followed God's will till the end.
As for his cry. Let us imagine for a moment...Christ Who was 100% god, 100% man, who was prior to becoming man one with the father, who lived loved created knew the father, now he is on the cross, separated from his father from the sin he took upon himself for our sake. "a man who knew no sin, became sin for us". God cannot look upon sin, he can't, he is far too holy. In this death, Jesus was actually separated from a holy God, His own father, for our sake. God had to turn from him! How ghastly! Can you imagine? And so Christ screamed out, Oh my God , My God, how has thou forsaken me? What torture this must have been....
God did not give in and place a substitute to die for all mans sin, Jesus did die, an awful death, but that is not the good news people. The good news is that he conquered death. So that we all can live! Praise God!
FearGod Reply
Thank you Lady B for your explanation.
Sins are bad things,so who make sins are actually a bad person,such as killing,stealing...etc.
Jesus pbuh is a sinless man,which means he is of perfect morals.
So now in order to save the bad people who do sins,god should sacrifice a good person.
in other words if there is one country with many bad people who are criminals,then to let those criminals free,we should bring the most innocent person who never did any crime and to kill him so the others will be free from their bad deeds and also they can go in doing sins since that the innocent one had already being killed paying for their awful deeds.
Lady B,am i wrong,or should i understand it in a different way.
Originally Posted by Lady B
Dear Fear God:
You have a man's understanding, while it is logical in man's logic, it is not logical in God's logic.let me give you a example in human terms. Can I?
A man is ruler and governor in a village, he is well respected and abides by all laws, and expects others to abide by them as well.can they? Can an entire village obey all laws? This governor loves his people so much that when the day comes for judgment on his people, he chooses to offer himself a sacrifice for them. We humans cannot conceive this, have we ever really sacrificed our selves for anyone? Have we loved a people so much? For instance when you saw the terrible things that the American filmmakers did, how they hurt your prophet, how they insulted and degraded your religion, did it ever enter your mind to pay their penalty? To give your life that they should be forgiven? No. It may have entered your mind to give your life in defense of Islam and your prophet, but I assure you, you never thought to die for the sinner. God did. He alone did. No sinless man has ever taken on sin for our sakes but this man. How do we thank him? We say he deceived us by escaping in the end? I beg you to reconsider what you are saying, God did not reconsider, he loved us so much that he gave us the ultimate sacrifice. He foretold us his plans, though we didn't see, look to Abraham. He was willing to do Gods will and sacrifice his son, yet God stopped him and gave him a lamb, a spotless sinless sacrifice. Had the lamb deserved death? No.
I have a great respect for Islam, please don't get me wrong, I admire the works of Mohammad, I do. Some great doctrines we disagree in, I am not trying to change a religion, I just ask you to reason with me, and let us use our God given minds. That is all....
FearGod Reply
Could you please inform me what is the meaning of sacrifice?
What sacrifice means to you? and do you think that god need one to be sacrificed (jesus pbuh in our case) to forgive our sins.
Do you think god got no other choices to save us except by sacrificing his son.
Can god forgive our sins without a sacrifice,or god can't do it except if there is a sacrifice.
Originally Posted by Lady B
yes Fear God, I can explain it the best I know how, but without ears to hear or eyes to see, you may not understand. In all of the old testament, th eTorah, God required animal sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. I do not know why except it was a forshadowing of Christ's ultimate sacrifice. God shed the first blood sacrifice after the fall of adam, when He killed the animal to clothe them, from thence, Abel sacrificed an animal and Cain gave fruit, God loved abels sacrifice more and this lead to one brother killing another. Why an animal who did no harm? I believe It was God's way of showing us how his son would be sinless yet sacrificed for us.
yes God has all power, he could just say" i forgive the world" and we would be forgiven. This is not what he did however, and we are not to question his intentions in this way. let us look at real life, If you are constantly against your father, always disobediant to him, shaming him and hurting him. and he says" hey no problem ,I forgive you" will you then repent and change your heart? or will you need to see your father in a more holy sanctified way? God is so holy, we can't even look at his face or we would die...He cannot look at sin, or sinful men, He just cannot... He requires a sacrifice, a true sacrifice. He did not just except any animal, it had to be the best man had, spotless.
God then gave us his only begotten son. The most perfect sacrifice.
I know you have a huge problem in this, your mind is saying " hey why does God, who can do anything by just his word require this? My answer is, he is Holy, so Holy.....
