Who Is The True Church Of Jesus Christ?

TheGreaterGame said:

we seperate Christian from non-Christian on these coucils that clearly defined said doctrines . . . I'm trying to refine, even more so true Church/true Christianity.

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See that's what I find so offensive. Who gave you the authority to decide whose a Christian and who's not? Do you think God's going to get your approval before allowing me into heaven? Do you not find that to be the slightest bit "holier than thou"?

Katzpur said:

About all I can add to my previous comments is that I believe that the only individuals who will actually spend eternity in Hell ("Outer Darkness") are those who have no desire to be with God. I have a book (not part of the LDS canon, but an excellent one about our beliefs, nevertheless) called "Latter Days." In it, the author (Coke Newell) states:

"Hell, in the end, will be a tiny, forgotten corner of the universe. The great God will find no solace in the path these few have chosen. They were his children. Yet all has been offered: light, strength, repentance, help, knowledge, and a grace sufficient to cover all sins should each of them merely have sought forgiveness and a better way. They simply weren't interested. None of them would be happy in heaven, anyway, and perhaps their self-selected misery is their only reward for having tried mortality."

We believe that the vast, vast majority of God's children will end up in Heaven. Not all will receive the same glory, because Jesus pointed out that He will reward every man according to his works. But I'd say we have the biggest Heaven and the littlest Hell of any Christian denomination around. We fully expect to see people there who lived their lives as Catholics, Methodists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, pagans, and atheists.

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Just for my clarification then..you do NOT believe HELL is a place of ETERNAL TORMENT?? Just a Darkness or seperation from GOD? Is that correct?

searcher63 said:

Just for my clarification then..you do NOT believe HELL is a place of ETERNAL TORMENT?? Just a Darkness or seperation from GOD? Is that correct?

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I don't believe that anyone will know what hell is like unless they end up there.

jonny said:

I don't believe that anyone will know what hell is like unless they end up there.

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Thats an Interesting comment. I dont believe people will "KNOW" anything once in SHEOL, HADES, OR HELL..sice the scriptures tell us that ( QUOTE):" ALL THAT YOUR HANDS FIND TO DO..DO WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT...FOR THERE IS NO DEVISING, OR WISDOM, OR KNOWLEDGE IN SHEOL THE PLACE TO WHICH YOU ARE GOING."
THat seems fairly clear to me.

searcher63 said:

Thats an Interesting comment. I dont believe people will "KNOW" anything once in SHEOL, HADES, OR HELL..sice the scriptures tell us that ( QUOTE):" ALL THAT YOUR HANDS FIND TO DO..DO WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT...FOR THERE IS NO DEVISING, OR WISDOM, OR KNOWLEDGE IN SHEOL THE PLACE TO WHICH YOU ARE GOING."
THat seems fairly clear to me.

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THERES also this:" For the living are conscious that they will die...but the dead are consciuos of NOTHING AT ALL".

searcher63 said:

Just for my clarification then..you do NOT believe HELL is a place of ETERNAL TORMENT?? Just a Darkness or seperation from GOD? Is that correct?

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I'd have to research my Church's official doctrine on the subject to be absolutely sure that what I'm saying is accurate. I do believe that Hell is a place of eternal torment. I imagine that it will be worse than anything we can possibly conceive of. It was never, ever end. I think that's the worst part. As to whether it's hot or cold, I really don't know. All I know for sure is that it will be a miserable place of suffering. I do believe it's a real place, but without doing some research, I better quit while I'm ahead.

searcher63 said:

THERES also this:" For the living are conscious that they will die...but the dead are consciuos of NOTHING AT ALL".

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One quick note and then I'm off to bed. Since I don't believe the spirit ever dies, there is only one way for me to understand this verse. The dead (being the body) is not conscious of anything because it is no longer inflused by spirit or life. The spirit, on the other hand, is as alive as it ever was. It is temporarily separated from the dead body (which knows nothing) but has the ability to grow and mature and learn. It is a fully cognizant entity.

Kathryn

Katzpur said:

I'd have to research my Church's official doctrine on the subject to be absolutely sure that what I'm saying is accurate. I do believe that Hell is a place of eternal torment. I imagine that it will be worse than anything we can possibly conceive of. It was never, ever end. I think that's the worst part. As to whether it's hot or cold, I really don't know. All I know for sure is that it will be a miserable place of suffering. I do believe it's a real place, but without doing some research, I better quit while I'm ahead.

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Thank you. But that leaves the second part of my post unanswered. Why torment? Thats cruel. Why not just do away with them all together? Eternal DEATH with no chance of a resurection makes more sense and squares with our human SENSE OF JUSTICE ( or GOD given Conscience) then does ETERNAL TORMENT, MISERY, and SUFFERING.
I am glad I dont worship a GOD with a schoolyard Bully mentality like that!

searcher63 said:

KATSPUR:
I have felt in my short time on this post that YOURS, among most, stand out as insightful, thoughtful, and respectful. I must, however, strongly disagree with your view on HELL. Revelation speaks of HELL in ways that most construe as a litteral HOT place of TORMENT. All the while People forget the very first verse of REVELATION:" John recieves a revelation ( IN SIGNS)" It was a VISION and NOT MEANT to be TAKEN LITERALLY!!! How else can you explain the verse:" DEATH AND HADES ARE THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE..WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH!" Are we to assume from that that DEATH and HADES are LITTERALLY THROWN INTO AN ACTUAL LAKE OF FIRE? How is that possible?
Further study reveals that the lake of fire ( or Second Death) Actually refer to a condition (NON-EXISTENCE) from which there can be NO RESURRECTION. Thus by throwing Death into this "LAKE OF FIRE" GOD'S KINGDOM GOVERNMENT WILL FOREVER DO AWAY WITH DEATH.

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YOu forget the false prophet and antichrist are there in the lake of fire for a thousand years and are STILL alive at the end of the millenium

I read most of the posts, look, we will all be judged according to the light we have recieived, Romans 1and2, one who has not heard of Jesus will not be judged for rejecting him. Romans says we have the creation, and our conscience, God's word written in our hearts, those who ignore the God they know exists, or create false God's to fit their prideful, or sinful lifetsyle, God will judge. He is a fair judge. If one asks forgiveness of God, having never heard of Christ, God is just, he will do what is right. However, most people reject God, and he gave them over to a reprobate mind, working all manner of sin, again see Romans first few chapters. Few find the way of righteousness, there will be a separation of the sheep and goats, the wicked and righteous, a man will not be judged for never having heard of Christ, they will be judged on what they have done with the light given them. Did they fell sorry for their sins, did they ask God, whom the creation and conscience bears witness in the heart of every man, or did they reject him and turn to depravation and sin? God is just he will judge fairly. May God have mercy on us all. I praise God, that he offered the good news of salvation through His Son Jesus Christ, and we are commissioned to tell the world, now, the good news of complete forgiveness and payment for all our sins. But, I will say, if one whether he has never heard of Christ, he has the creation and conscience and therefore knowledge of God and right and wrong, and yes he is human and will sin, but does he call on God for forgiveness, and try to live right? Or does he just be completely vile and wicked? What one does in this life will determine the afterlife, no second chances. That is why we must tell the good news of Christs' forgiveness, and payment of our sins. So many people live in sorrow, they must know the goodnews! We must tell them all. But, God is just, he will separate the sheep from the goats. And I tell you, man know in this life if he is sorry for is state, if he wants to be right with God. There is no second chance after the grave, all will be judged according to the light given them. It is a complex subject, and that is my answer for now, and I aint no theologian, but I do read the Bible and this is what its says. Thank God, for his grace and mercy on those who receive the word and accept Christs atonement, and for all who want to be forgiven, they shall be. Lets tell all we can of the free gift God offers, so they may have asssurance and peace in this life. Truly, the wicked will reject God, if they hear the gospel, they will reject it, God won't give up on them and neither should we, but, its now or never. They chose what they chose, having the creation and God's word written in their heart, if they chose to turn away from Him, he gives them over to a reprobate mind, and into many sins, again see Romans 1 & 2. Its not that hard too understand. But I repeat, it is appointed once for man to die, and then the judgement. YOu accept Christ's payment for sin, or the light you have received and turn to God, IN THIS LIFE, or you suffer the consequences. This is the Bible truth, a theologian could explain it better than me, but that is the jist of it.

Love to all,

Pray for me!

Michael

joeboonda said:

I read most of the posts, look, we will all be judged according to the light we have recieived, Romans 1and2, one who has not heard of Jesus will not be judged for rejecting him. Romans says we have the creation, and our conscience, God's word written in our hearts, those who ignore the God they know exists, or create false God's to fit their prideful, or sinful lifetsyle, God will judge. He is a fair judge. If one asks forgiveness of God, having never heard of Christ, God is just, he will do what is right. However, most people reject God, and he gave them over to a reprobate mind, working all manner of sin, again see Romans first few chapters. Few find the way of righteousness, there will be a separation of the sheep and goats, the wicked and righteous, a man will not be judged for never having heard of Christ, they will be judged on what they have done with the light given them. Did they fell sorry for their sins, did they ask God, whom the creation and conscience bears witness in the heart of every man, or did they reject him and turn to depravation and sin? God is just he will judge fairly. May God have mercy on us all. I praise God, that he offered the good news of salvation through His Son Jesus Christ, and we are commissioned to tell the world, now, the good news of complete forgiveness and payment for all our sins. But, I will say, if one whether he has never heard of Christ, he has the creation and conscience and therefore knowledge of God and right and wrong, and yes he is human and will sin, but does he call on God for forgiveness, and try to live right? Or does he just be completely vile and wicked? What one does in this life will determine the afterlife, no second chances. That is why we must tell the good news of Christs' forgiveness, and payment of our sins. So many people live in sorrow, they must know the goodnews! We must tell them all. But, God is just, he will separate the sheep from the goats. And I tell you, man know in this life if he is sorry for is state, if he wants to be right with God. There is no second chance after the grave, all will be judged according to the light given them. It is a complex subject, and that is my answer for now, and I aint no theologian, but I do read the Bible and this is what its says. Thank God, for his grace and mercy on those who receive the word and accept Christs atonement, and for all who want to be forgiven, they shall be. Lets tell all we can of the free gift God offers, so they may have asssurance and peace in this life. Truly, the wicked will reject God, if they hear the gospel, they will reject it, God won't give up on them and neither should we, but, its now or never. They chose what they chose, having the creation and God's word written in their heart, if they chose to turn away from Him, he gives them over to a reprobate mind, and into many sins, again see Romans 1 & 2. Its not that hard too understand. But I repeat, it is appointed once for man to die, and then the judgement. YOu accept Christ's payment for sin, or the light you have received and turn to God, IN THIS LIFE, or you suffer the consequences. This is the Bible truth, a theologian could explain it better than me, but that is the jist of it.

Love to all,

Pray for me!

Michael

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I appreciate your sincerety..but respectfully... as has everyone else that has answered my post you seem to dance around the point of my argument. LOGICALLY...if we are made in GODS image ( that is to say we are endowed with certain aspects of his personality, among that is a sense of justice, fair play, right and wrong) It makes NO sense to punish ANYONE ( no matter how evil and deserving) FOR ETERNITY...with the cruelest pain imaginable!Causing one to "CEASE TO EXIST" for eternity makes FAr more LOGICAL SENSE AND SERVES GOD'S PURPOSE AT THE SAME TIME! That is for those deserving ( and GOD is the final judge on that matter) such ones would forfeit their god given priveledge of existence. There is nothing unfair or unrighteous in that whatsoever. It is in stark contrast to the picture that is painted of GOD as a cruel, unjust, unloving, vindictive, master that the HELL DOCTRINE (by it's very nature) portrays. If MAN'S sense of Justice finds that wrong ( and you'd have to be somewhat disturbed NOT to) Than how much more so OUR CREATOR IN WHOSE IMAGE WE ARE MADE.
I dont expect a reply to this ( no one else has) Just had to make the point.....ONCE AGAIN!

Searcher,

You are absolutely right. Hell and it's avoidance leads to "fire insurance religion". The teaching of hell may be a bottom line beginning motivator to teach consequences of bad actions. But, this must give way to the other counterweight. God is a rewarder of them that dilligently seek him.
If we conceive of God as a parent . . . . . . we know there's gonna be "hell to pay" if we borrow the car and wreck it. But, our father is going to be more concerned with our condition than the car. If not, our earthly father is not reflecting the character of our Heavenly Father.
BenJosh

MidnightBlue said:

So the teachings of Jesus were not enough, and the teachings of the apostles had to be added to them. And the teachings of Jesus and the apostles were not enough, and the teachings of the councils had to be added to them. And now the teachings of Jesus and the apostles and the councils are not enough, and the teachings of John Piper must be added to them. This is how Christianity multiplies divisions and heaps errors upon errors. Did no one follow Jesus before the Bible, or the councils, or John Piper? If not, then how can anyone know the truth today? It may be that some further elaborate of Piper's teachings is necessary and indispensible, and will never be made in our lifetime. But if it's possible to follow Jesus without all this elaboration of belief, then why pretend it's all necessary?

Jesus is the good shepherd, and knows his sheep, and is known of his own. The same is not true of the Bible, or the councils, or John Piper.

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No this is exactly the reason why Christianity must be redefined . . . because you have many groups who are outside orthodox Christianity calling themselve Christians . . . this is why we must work on our definitions.

TheGreaterGame said:

No this is exactly the reason why Christianity must be redefined . . . because you have many groups who are outside orthodox Christianity calling themselve Christians . . . this is why we must work on our definitions.

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who will be the judge of what is "orthodox"?
my answer to that would be god, so we would need to look in the scriptures for the answer - and so we would return to square one arguing over what the interpritations of the scriptures - which would not make "one true church"

TheGreaterGame said:

this is why we must work on our definitions.

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Who are you talking about here?

~Victor

benjosh said:

Searcher,

You are absolutely right. Hell and it's avoidance leads to "fire insurance religion". The teaching of hell may be a bottom line beginning motivator to teach consequences of bad actions. But, this must give way to the other counterweight. God is a rewarder of them that dilligently seek him.
If we conceive of God as a parent . . . . . . we know there's gonna be "hell to pay" if we borrow the car and wreck it. But, our father is going to be more concerned with our condition than the car. If not, our earthly father is not reflecting the character of our Heavenly Father.
BenJosh

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I agree with your example. There would be "HELL to pay" if a child wrecked the car.....but the punishment meted out not only would fit the crime. (I.E. Grounded, or not using the family car for a period of time) but the punishment must also have an ending time. If not, then the child cannot learn from his mistake.

searcher63 said:

I appreciate your sincerety..but respectfully... as has everyone else that has answered my post you seem to dance around the point of my argument.

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I, for one, am not intentionally dancing around the point of your argument. I guess I'm just missing it. So just keep at me until I answer to your satisfaction.

LOGICALLY...if we are made in GODS image ( that is to say we are endowed with certain aspects of his personality, among that is a sense of justice, fair play, right and wrong) It makes NO sense to punish ANYONE ( no matter how evil and deserving) FOR ETERNITY...with the cruelest pain imaginable!

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First, as you may know, I believe the phrase "created in God's image" to mean that we physically resemble Him. As God's image is -- thankfully! -- not the subject of this thread, I won't elaborate on why I don't see our having been created in His image to play any part in God's decision to either save or condemn us. From my perspective, Osama bin Ladan was created "in God's image," since he, like the rest of us is a mortal being. On the other hand, he definitely didn't appear to have inherited God's "sense of justice, fair play, right and wrong."

Causing one to "CEASE TO EXIST" for eternity makes FAr more LOGICAL SENSE AND SERVES GOD'S PURPOSE AT THE SAME TIME! That is for those deserving ( and GOD is the final judge on that matter) such ones would forfeit their god given priveledge of existence. There is nothing unfair or unrighteous in that whatsoever. It is in stark contrast to the picture that is painted of GOD as a cruel, unjust, unloving, vindictive, master that the HELL DOCTRINE (by it's very nature) portrays. If MAN'S sense of Justice finds that wrong ( and you'd have to be somewhat disturbed NOT to) Than how much more so OUR CREATOR IN WHOSE IMAGE WE ARE MADE.

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I disagree. If God laid down the rules, it is only just that He should follow them. I don't believe that His concept of justice is: "Honor and obey me and the consequences will be wonderful beyond your wildest dreams. Rebel against me and the consequences will be... uh... well, you won't be around to find out, so I guess it really doesn't matter."

I am not convinced that the LDS concept of Hell fits into the typical Christian mold. I realize I previously stressed that Hell will be a place of anguish and suffering, but I see this anguish and suffering as self-imposed by those who refuse to accept even a tiny portion of God's glory. I have never heard an LDS leader speak of it as a lake of fire, so I suppose that to be metaphorical as opposed to literal. I suspect that, if I were to do some research on the subject, I would find that my Church's doctrine would describe "Hell" as a complete and absolute separation from all that is good -- hence the term "Outer Darkness." A just God is obligated to keep His promises. To me, for Him to do so is not cruel at all. But again, you must understand how few people, according to LDS doctrine will actually find themselves in this state.

Katzpur said:

I, for one, am not intentionally dancing around the point of your argument. I guess I'm just missing it. So just keep at me until I answer to your satisfaction.


First, as you may know, I believe the phrase "created in God's image" to mean that we physically resemble Him. As God's image is -- thankfully! -- not the subject of this thread, I won't elaborate on why I don't see our having been created in His image to play any part in God's decision to either save or condemn us. From my perspective, Osama bin Ladan was created "in God's image," since he, like the rest of us is a mortal being. On the other hand, he definitely didn't appear to have inherited God's "sense of justice, fair play, right and wrong."

I disagree. If God laid down the rules, it is only just that He should follow them. I don't believe that His concept of justice is: "Honor and obey me and the consequences will be wonderful beyond your wildest dreams. Rebel against me and the consequences will be... uh... well, you won't be around to find out, so I guess it really doesn't matter."

I am not convinced that the LDS concept of Hell fits into the typical Christian mold. I realize I previously stressed that Hell will be a place of anguish and suffering, but I see this anguish and suffering as self-imposed by those who refuse to accept even a tiny portion of God's glory. I have never heard an LDS leader speak of it as a lake of fire, so I suppose that to be metaphorical as opposed to literal. I suspect that, if I were to do some research on the subject, I would find that my Church's doctrine would describe "Hell" as a complete and absolute separation from all that is good -- hence the term "Outer Darkness." A just God is obligated to keep His promises. To me, for Him to do so is not cruel at all. But again, you must understand how few people, according to LDS doctrine will actually find themselves in this state.

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Thank you for the clarification.

Mike182 said:

who will be the judge of what is "orthodox"?
my answer to that would be god, so we would need to look in the scriptures for the answer - and so we would return to square one arguing over what the interpritations of the scriptures - which would not make "one true church"

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Mike . . . I realize that there are matters of interpretation that are somewhat hazy . . . somethings God has not revealed to us . . . but God has made a lot plain to us . . . we don't need bible code or extra revelation . . . we just need to read God's word and let the text speak for itself in its proper context . . . no twisting . . . there is a God's eye view . . . and it is the Bible.

Victor said:

Who are you talking about here?

~Victor

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True Orthodox Christianity . . . Paul's Christianity . . . dare I say Jesus' brand of Christianity