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Is Tao = consciousness?

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
The "One" of nonduality is produced by the Tao:
Tao Te Ching

Chapter 42
Tao produces one
One produces two
Two produce three
Three produce myriad things
Myriad things, backed by yin and embracing yang
Achieve harmony by integrating their energy
What the people dislike
Are alone, bereft, and unworthy
But the rulers call themselves with these terms

 

Alceste

Vagabond
The "One" of nonduality is produced by the Tao:
Tao Te Ching

Chapter 42
Tao produces one
One produces two
Two produce three
Three produce myriad things
Myriad things, backed by yin and embracing yang
Achieve harmony by integrating their energy
What the people dislike
Are alone, bereft, and unworthy
But the rulers call themselves with these terms


That's the one about the great cosmic vagina! :D
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
The "One" of nonduality is produced by the Tao:
Tao Te Ching

Chapter 42
Tao produces one
One produces two
Two produce three
Three produce myriad things
Myriad things, backed by yin and embracing yang
Achieve harmony by integrating their energy
What the people dislike
Are alone, bereft, and unworthy
But the rulers call themselves with these terms


Yes, it is the eternal non-dual Tao (that can't be spoken of) that produces the one, which is the mind's conception of the non-dual Tao (which we all talk about).
From this mind conceived Tao comes the further differentiated conception of the two, ying and yang.
From the three, the Tao, ying and yang come the ten thousand things.

The three....:yinyang:
 

Vichar

Member
I know you, Vichar, and crossfire are not getting this, but here is one last attempt.

So long as there is an observer, a you, a we, an I, attempting to do anything at all, then your reality comprises two 'things', you the subject and the objective of your action. In this instance, these are 'striver' and 'flawless thoughts', and 'weeder' and 'garden'.

Now the Way to true reality which is non-dual can't be approached through duality, for logically the way to a goal can't be in contradiction to the goal itself. Therefore the Way to non-duality is through non-duality, dhyana.

So the problem isn't the weeds in the garden, for the weeds are an integral of the non-dual oneness of the garden, it's the fact that there is a perceiver 'you' that arises in consciousness to disturb the tranquility of the actual one reality by conceptualizing two parts, weeds and garden. All following discussion just compounds the obscuration of the underlying non-dual nature of existence.

If you actually understand what is being said here, that is enough, there is an efficacy in true understanding that works without any effort or necessity for the mind to cogitate further once the understanding had occurred. If otoh you still don't understand then that's ok too, just ignore me and carry on as you were.

You are giving very good advice, and once again I hope we aren't letting the words themselves get in the way. You are correct in that terms like "you" and "I", which are very convenient in English, are also habitual terms that we have grown very accustomed to using. It's because we look down at our body, and identify strongly with it. We think of ourselves as an entity separate from the rest of existence, observer-observed.

My main purpose in posting is not to demonstrate, per se, that I understand precisely what it is that you are trying to write ben d. Nor do I think what you are attempting to convey is in opposition to what I'm trying to convey. The mind (all 3 minds) believes that it is the one that will process some verbal or written symbols and therefore understand some truth which is separate from it. Observer - observed.

In contrast, the soul is a part of the existence as a whole. Spirit is everything all at once, even in the diffuse physical form. To "understand" spiritual truth, one must become it. One immerses oneself in the celestial sound and (re)joins with it, merging with its essence. One does not "observe" the truth, one embodies the (spiritual) truth.

But there are Truths and there are truths. And we should be considerate and conscious of our audience at all times. If I use dualistic terms, it's because that is the accepted norm in our society. There is actually a path through the quagmire of the mind to spirituality. I remember to when I did not care about spirituality (perhaps lifetimes ago), and even then there were extremely valuable lessons pointing the way, asking me to rethink (yes, think) my direction and decisions. When the mind is finally ready to consider spirituality, it begins to realize that it's the one that's in the way and has to die to the higher truth!

But I thank you, ben d. Your comment on humility is kindly and well-taken. In my eagerness to explain a concept I sometimes do not put enough effort into understanding the perfection of the moment or the highest good of the potential reader.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Expressed well Vichar, true understanding inculdes understanding not understanding which is an integral of pre-enlightened nature....:namaste
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
I know you, Vichar, and crossfire are not getting this, but here is one last attempt.

So long as there is an observer, a you, a we, an I, attempting to do anything at all, ...
The combination of these two sentences struck me as funny. :D
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
The combination of these two sentences struck me as funny. :D

Haha,..however the apparent irony arises in that in order to have any discussion at all, duality must be the order of the day as the mind processes concepts to express whatever is being expressed. For that reason, I explained in my post #38,...'I' am only using conceptual language as an expedient to try and convey to you that the non-dual Way will be ever obscured by using your mind to conceptualize the non-dual Way. If the person still doesn't understand, then there is no point in repeating...
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Haha,..however the apparent irony arises in that in order to have any discussion at all, duality must be the order of the day as the mind processes concepts to express whatever is being expressed. For that reason, I explained in my post #38,...'I' am only using conceptual language as an expedient to try and convey to you that the non-dual Way will be ever obscured by using your mind to conceptualize the non-dual Way. If the person still doesn't understand, then there is no point in repeating...
Oh, it wasn't just the use of the word "I." It was also/more the word "attempt."
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Oh, it wasn't just the use of the word "I." It was also/more the word "attempt."

Yes, that's the irony referred to, the conceptual language used in the post was an expedient in the attempt to convey that so long as there is a 'you' who is attempting to attain something, then there is an implication of duality and the seeker is separate from that sought!

If you don't understand then let's leave it at that, cheers and all the best!
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I think that tao is a more basic form of where consciousness stems from. Though it is more like experiencing without giving thought to it, simply being.

To go a step further, it is said, "Wu and tao are equally the mother of all things." Thus wu and tao are the same. So it may be said that wu wei, no action is tao wei, action by the spirit. It is in this sense that the phrase, wu wei erh wu pu wei, "there is no doing, but there is nothing undone" is to be understood. Of course, wu wei must be rendered by "spirit action," which makes the meaning full of force. Lao Tzû says: "Heaven and earth and all things were begotten of what is; and what is is begotten of wu, the non-existent, physically, i.e. tao, the spirit.

WU WEI
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
I think that tao is a more basic form of where consciousness stems from. Though it is more like experiencing without giving thought to it, simply being.
More on Wuji (The Infinite, unmanifest) and Taiji (The Supreme Ultimate, way of manifestation) can be found here: Explanation of the Diagram of the Supreme Ultimate (Taiji)
Tao is the way. The way is expressed differently according to the setting.
Notice how the Tao is expressed with consciousness as the Tao of man. (My favorite quote from above linked document)
Therefore it is said, "In establishing the Tao of Heaven yin and yang are spoken of; in establishing the Tao of Earth the soft and the hard are spoken of; in establishing the Tao of man humanity (love) and righteousness are spoken of." And again, "[The Book of Changes] traces things to their origin in the beginning and back again to their final end; therefore it understands life and death.​
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Yes, that's the irony referred to, the conceptual language used in the post was an expedient in the attempt to convey that so long as there is a 'you' who is attempting to attain something, then there is an implication of duality and the seeker is separate from that sought!

If you don't understand then let's leave it at that, cheers and all the best!
No dear, I get it. It's like the apparent but not actual contradiction in Buddhism where, to attain nirvana one must be free of desire, including the desire to attain nirvana.

What strikes me as funny is your repeatedly admonishing people to stop the striving that creates duality when you are so obviously striving yourself. :D
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
What strikes me as funny is your repeatedly admonishing people to stop the striving that creates duality when you are so obviously striving yourself. :D

You are mistaken dear sweet lilithu, there is a difference between using conceptual language as an expedient to teach people that conceptual reality is not the actual reality for which the concepts represent, and using conceptual language in the misunderstanding that it is the same thing as the reality for which it represents.

Take Lao Tzus's Tao Teh Ching (TR. by S. Mitchell) for example, in the first paragraph it says..

The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal Name.
The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin of all particular things.
Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.


The bolded lines shows where the cause of the fall from non-duality originates,...conceptualization of the perceived manifestations of the non-dual Tao.

Now since there are 81 verses of conceptual language in the Tao Teh Ching concerning the non-conceptual non-dual Tao and its illusionary multiplicity, are you going to admonish Lao Tzu for striving to teach/admonish people not to mistake the manifestation for the mystery of the non-dual unnamed Tao?

So do in future please try to be aware of the nuance involved when this subject is being discussed!
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Another translation from D. C. Lau may be beneficial to the discussion here:

"The nameless was the beginning of heaven and earth;
The named was the mother of the myriad creatures.
Hence always rid yourself of desires in order to observe its secrets;
But always allow yourself to have desires in order to observe its manifestations.
These two are the same
But diverge in name as they issue forth. (Lao Tzu 1)

Certain doctrines call for the cessation of all desires to enter the non-duel state of mind, but it seems that philosophical Taoism incorporates 'desire' itself as a manifestation of the non-duel Tao. It seems to be one of the main differences with Buddhist philosophy. There is no ego-death is Taoism. It's more a matter of developing awareness to the point that the 'ego' finds its proper place in the flow of things. It's important to let go of desire in order to cultivate the non-duel mind, but there's no contradiction in allowing simple natural desires to manifest as they are just as equally an extension of the Tao. Does a complete non-duality permit desire?
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Another translation from D. C. Lau may be beneficial to the discussion here:

"The nameless was the beginning of heaven and earth;
The named was the mother of the myriad creatures.
Hence always rid yourself of desires in order to observe its secrets;
But always allow yourself to have desires in order to observe its manifestations.
These two are the same
But diverge in name as they issue forth. (Lao Tzu 1)

Certain doctrines call for the cessation of all desires to enter the non-duel state of mind, but it seems that philosophical Taoism incorporates 'desire' itself as a manifestation of the non-duel Tao. It seems to be one of the main differences with Buddhist philosophy. There is no ego-death is Taoism. It's more a matter of developing awareness to the point that the 'ego' finds its proper place in the flow of things. It's important to let go of desire in order to cultivate the non-duel mind, but there's no contradiction in allowing simple natural desires to manifest as they are just as equally an extension of the Tao. Does a complete non-duality permit desire?

Straw Dog, you seem to always cover so much when you post, so here's just a few observations fwiw.

Non-duality (unnamed/non-conceptual Tao) doesn't permit or not permit anything, it's beyond all duality...it is the underlying Unity of the conceptual One or Tao which differentiates into the Ying and Yang complementary opposite pair. But be aware of the nuance always, for in fact conceptualized Non-duality and Duality are themselves a complementary opposite pair (Ying and Yang) in the context of the unnamed or non-conceptual Tao. From the unnamed Tao comes the one (named Tao), from the one the two (Ying and Yang) and from the three (named Tao, Ying and Yang) come the ten thousand things.

The concept of 'desire' is just another word that implies a dualsitic mind that functions on a subject and object basis, i.e. one that desires/conceives/thinks/etc. and the object of such desires, thoughts, etc..

There is a transcension of ego, not the death of, like the boy who gives up his boy toys when he he discovers girls, there is much more to consciousness than ego subject - object perception of reality, and it will unfold naturally and effortlessly when and as the higher faculty develops.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Yeah, there is a transcendence of ego required in order to abide in the way of things as they are. Consciousness and the objects of consciousness arise together. There is no real separation between desire and the objects of desire. They differ only in name as they issue forth. I don't believe in yin and yang. There is only yin-yang. How can they be separated? Perhaps we agree more than we disagree, but how would we know it?
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Yeah, there is a transcendence of ego required in order to abide in the way of things as they are. Consciousness and the objects of consciousness arise together. There is no real separation between desire and the objects of desire. They differ only in name as they issue forth. I don't believe in yin and yang. There is only yin-yang. How can they be separated? Perhaps we agree more than we disagree, but how would we know it?
Discernment. Knowing things for what they are. The other side of the "desire coin," so to speak.

To clarify: you see what actually is, and not just the data run through the like/dislike filter.
 
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Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Discernment. Knowing things for what they are. The other side of the "desire coin," so to speak.

To clarify: you see what actually is, and not just the data run through the like/dislike filter.

Yeah, like two sides to the same coin. I cannot literally 'see' things as they are. I can only let things be as they are without judging them. Reality is more complicated than I might like to presume. It's probably best to let reality rest as it is without producing any 'absolute' concepts of it. Abiding in that which facilitates one's original nature prevents getting lost in aberations caused by attachments to conceptualizations.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Yeah, like two sides to the same coin. I cannot literally 'see' things as they are. I can only let things be as they are without judging them. Reality is more complicated than I might like to presume. It's probably best to let reality rest as it is without producing any 'absolute' concepts of it. Abiding in that which facilitates one's original nature prevents getting lost in aberations caused by attachments to conceptualizations.
Well you still have to live and interact with reality. You have to correctly discern an obstacle as being "hard" so you can overcome the obstacle with "soft." (Counterintuitive to the desire-based way of overcoming "hard" with "harder.") ;)
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Well you still have to live and interact with reality. You have to correctly discern an obstacle as being "hard" so you can overcome the obstacle with "soft." (Counterintuitive to the desire-based way of overcoming "hard" with "harder.") ;)

Unless we desire a soft solution or desire to simplify our desires. :)

It seems that notions such as 'non-duality' can potentially cause thinking to become very uptight. It implies a 'duality' in contrast, which may lend itself to thinking 'duality' is bad and 'non-duality' is good. At least, this is a pitfall for people prone to heavy thinking like me. I'd rather just forget duality vs. non-duality and let that which is be and become that which is. All attempts to enforce what we consider 'good' are flawed contrivances.
 
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