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My New View of the (non)Trinity

Elphineas

Member
When I was Christian, I never really understood the Trinity thing. Actually, I never even cared...

But that's beside the point.



The point? Oh! The point!



Okay. After nosing about for some stuff on Sophia (or Wisdom - as the Old Testament calls her), I ran across this very interesting sermon:

http://www.nccg.org/379Art-Yahshua_Godhead.html

While reading these half-assed ramblings, I was hit with a sudden realization:

Some of this crap makes sense!

What the page pretty much says is summed up in a few words -

God took Adam's "rib" and made Eve, right?



So maybe God took his own "rib" and made Jesus and Sophia!


But not in a physical sense. More of an "essense" sense. The page goes on to explain that, instead of being created in "the" beginning, Jesus was created in "a" beginning:

(Quoted directly)

"Does it really make any sense that in the beginning there were TWO? Simple logic impels us to the conclusion that in the beginning there was originally ONE, and in a later "beginning," there were "Two." This is the real meaning of John 1:1, for in the original Hebrew/Aramaic and in the Greek translation we read, literally:

"In a beginning was the Word [Logos/Dabar], and the Word [Logos/Dabar] was with God [Eloah], and the Word [Logos/Dabar] was God [Eloah]" (John 1:1, KJV)."

(funny how John uses the feminine name of God...)



The site says that, though the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate entities and yet the same, they are not equal.





Which makes a lot more sense.
 
Elphineas said:
When I was Christian, I never really understood the Trinity thing. Actually, I never even cared...

But that's beside the point.



The point? Oh! The point!



Okay. After nosing about for some stuff on Sophia (or Wisdom - as the Old Testament calls her), I ran across this very interesting sermon:

http://www.nccg.org/379Art-Yahshua_Godhead.html

While reading these half-assed ramblings, I was hit with a sudden realization:

Some of this crap makes sense!

What the page pretty much says is summed up in a few words -

God took Adam's "rib" and made Eve, right?



So maybe God took his own "rib" and made Jesus and Sophia!


But not in a physical sense. More of an "essense" sense. The page goes on to explain that, instead of being created in "the" beginning, Jesus was created in "a" beginning:

(Quoted directly)

"Does it really make any sense that in the beginning there were TWO? Simple logic impels us to the conclusion that in the beginning there was originally ONE, and in a later "beginning," there were "Two." This is the real meaning of John 1:1, for in the original Hebrew/Aramaic and in the Greek translation we read, literally:

"In a beginning was the Word [Logos/Dabar], and the Word [Logos/Dabar] was with God [Eloah], and the Word [Logos/Dabar] was God [Eloah]" (John 1:1, KJV)."

(funny how John uses the feminine name of God...)



The site says that, though the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate entities and yet the same, they are not equal.





Which makes a lot more sense.
Just to add to your point:
the bible calls JESUS "THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION!"
Since we know GOD'S INSPIRED WORD CANNOT LIE....we must take the scripture as truth.
CHRIST WAS CREATED! Therefore at one time ( no matter how many eons ago that was) there WAS a time when Christ did not exist. Therefore he had a beginning..which we know almighty GOD did not have. So the two could not be part of a Triune.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
searcher63 said:
Just to add to your point:
the bible calls JESUS "THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION!"
Since we know GOD'S INSPIRED WORD CANNOT LIE....we must take the scripture as truth.
CHRIST WAS CREATED! Therefore at one time ( no matter how many eons ago that was) there WAS a time when Christ did not exist. Therefore he had a beginning..which we know almighty GOD did not have. So the two could not be part of a Triune.
What's with the random phrases in capital letters?

God's inspired words cannot lie? Are you trying to suggest that God cannot do something?

Personally, it seems quite obvious to me that this god has lied countless times. And when the bible is viewed from this (rather synical) point of view, it becomes a far more enjoyable read and allows you to look into the origins of all the myths and teachings unhindered by doctrinal constraints.

Here's a question? Why can't people believe in God without applying ridiculous constraints upon It?
 
Halcyon said:
What's with the random phrases in capital letters?

God's inspired words cannot lie? Are you trying to suggest that God cannot do something?

Personally, it seems quite obvious to me that this god has lied countless times. And when the bible is viewed from this (rather synical) point of view, it becomes a far more enjoyable read and allows you to look into the origins of all the myths and teachings unhindered by doctrinal constraints.

Here's a question? Why can't people believe in God without applying ridiculous constraints upon It?
Well Halcyon:
I Do believe GOD when he says in his word :" IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO LIE."
Thats just what I believe. He has a standard of morality and justice by which he holds himself to. To believe otherwise makes life pointless. To believe that he has the same foibles as imperfect man is a scary thought! If that were true he could have a bad day and say to heck with everything and snuff us all out!!
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Elphineas said:
When I was Christian, I never really understood the Trinity thing. Actually, I never even cared...

But that's beside the point.



The point? Oh! The point!



Okay. After nosing about for some stuff on Sophia (or Wisdom - as the Old Testament calls her), I ran across this very interesting sermon:

http://www.nccg.org/379Art-Yahshua_Godhead.html

While reading these half-assed ramblings, I was hit with a sudden realization:

Some of this crap makes sense!

What the page pretty much says is summed up in a few words -

God took Adam's "rib" and made Eve, right?



So maybe God took his own "rib" and made Jesus and Sophia!


But not in a physical sense. More of an "essense" sense. The page goes on to explain that, instead of being created in "the" beginning, Jesus was created in "a" beginning:

(Quoted directly)

"Does it really make any sense that in the beginning there were TWO? Simple logic impels us to the conclusion that in the beginning there was originally ONE, and in a later "beginning," there were "Two." This is the real meaning of John 1:1, for in the original Hebrew/Aramaic and in the Greek translation we read, literally:

"In a beginning was the Word [Logos/Dabar], and the Word [Logos/Dabar] was with God [Eloah], and the Word [Logos/Dabar] was God [Eloah]" (John 1:1, KJV)."

(funny how John uses the feminine name of God...)



The site says that, though the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate entities and yet the same, they are not equal.





Which makes a lot more sense.
This may sound absurd (Things I say often do). When I first came here, I hadn't a clue about the trinity; I think I am O.K with it now.

You know those lava lamps ? The ones with a globule of some sort of very dense liquid in water, which rises with the heat of the light bulb at the bottom ?

That's how I see God. Jesus Christ was part of that Globule, that detached itself from the mass, came down to eart, lived as a human, died, and was resurected to become 'at one' again, with God.

I'm not entirely convinced that all we humans won't, at some time, (I believe in reincarnation), become 'at one' with God too.;)
 
searcher63 said:
Well Halcyon:
I Do believe GOD when he says in his word :" IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO LIE."
Thats just what I believe. He has a standard of morality and justice by which he holds himself to. To believe otherwise makes life pointless. To believe that he has the same foibles as imperfect man is a scary thought! If that were true he could have a bad day and say to heck with everything and snuff us all out!!
P.S.: As FoR ThE RaNdOm CaPiTAlIZinG.....SoRrY!.....DeAl WiTh It!!!!!
 

SoyLeche

meh...
searcher63 said:
Well Halcyon:
I Do believe GOD when he says in his word :" IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO LIE."
What if He was lying at the time that He said that :biglaugh:
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
searcher63 said:
To believe that he has the same foibles as imperfect man is a scary thought! If that were true he could have a bad day and say to heck with everything and snuff us all out!!
He did. Remember the flood?

searcher63 said:
P.S.: As FoR ThE RaNdOm CaPiTAlIZinG.....SoRrY!.....DeAl WiTh It!!!!!
Ever heard of netiquette? Capitals implies that the sentance is being shouted.

Actually i should apologise, i've been in a bad mood today and shouldn't take it out on the forum members. However, i would be greatful (and i imagine other people would too) if you didn't use capitals to emphasise a sentance, bold or italics are better.

SoyLeche said:
What if He was lying at the time that He said that :biglaugh:
You laugh Soy, but yeah, i reckon He probably was.

He lied about the creation of life, He lied about a worldwide flood, He lied about the land of Canaan belonging to Abraham's descendants for eternity. So i believe He probably lied about a lot more too.
 
Halcyon said:
You laugh Soy, but yeah, i reckon He probably was.

He lied about the creation of life, He lied about a worldwide flood, He lied about the land of Canaan belonging to Abraham's descendants for eternity. So i believe He probably lied about a lot more too.
You present this as fact, yet you provide no evidence.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT said:
You present this as fact, yet you provide no evidence.
That's because the evidence is surrounding you, its called the world.

Evolution is how life came to be, it has a multitude of evidence supporting it. Creationism has no viable evidence; only speculation, hearsay and imaginative daydreams.

Evidence for a worldwide flood does not exist, in fact if a worldwide flood had occured 6,000 years ago or whenever it was supposed to, the world would still be underwater - that much water can't just vanish. Plus, where do you think it came from? There is only a limited amount of water on Earth. Unless of course you believe the bible when it says that above the dome of the sky there is water and not space :rolleyes: .
So, local flood - yes, worldwide - impossible.

And as for God's promise to Abraham - do you see one people ruling over the land that was once Canaan? Has it been under the control of a single group of people throughout recorded history? No. That's all the evidence that is needed for that.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Halcyon said:
You laugh Soy, but yeah, i reckon He probably was.

He lied about the creation of life, He lied about a worldwide flood, He lied about the land of Canaan belonging to Abraham's descendants for eternity. So i believe He probably lied about a lot more too.
God lied ? :areyoucra Don't you think it more likely that the Bible is wrong ?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
searcher63 said:
Just to add to your point:
the bible calls JESUS "THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION!"
Since we know GOD'S INSPIRED WORD CANNOT LIE....we must take the scripture as truth.
CHRIST WAS CREATED! Therefore at one time ( no matter how many eons ago that was) there WAS a time when Christ did not exist. Therefore he had a beginning..which we know almighty GOD did not have. So the two could not be part of a Triune.
I believe that when the Bible speaks of "the beginning," it is referring to the beginning of all things relating to us and our universe. I believe that Jesus was with His Father "in the beginning." But I also believe that He was "the firstborn of all creation." He was spiritually begotten by His Father in a time "before the beginning." God the Father obvious existed "before the beginning." The Bible just doesn't tell us what He was doing then.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Halcyon said:
Nope. ;)

I think the bible is wrong because this god lied.
Not that the wise Halcyon needs my support. But I tend to agree with this. I would take it one step further. The Christian/Islamic God is a lie. IT does not exist, as it is conceived. Trust me, you will figure it out a few earth hours after you croak. Might as well get prepared as it is going to be a bit of a shocker.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
YmirGF said:
Not that the wise Halcyon needs my support. But I tend to agree with this. I would take it one step further. The Christian/Islamic God is a lie. IT does not exist, as it is conceived. Trust me, you will figure it out a few earth hours after you croak. Might as well get prepared as it is going to be a bit of a shocker.
Well, you're certainly feel to believe that, but, of course, I'm going to tell you you're going to be in a bit of shock when you die and see that God is not a lie.

What do you two think God lied about concerning creation and the flood? I don't think God has ever lied, but I'm willing to be proved wrong.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
nutshell said:
Well, you're certainly feel to believe that, but, of course, I'm going to tell you you're going to be in a bit of shock when you die and see that God is not a lie.

What do you two think God lied about concerning creation and the flood? I don't think God has ever lied, but I'm willing to be proved wrong.
Would it shock you if i said that the entity you know as God the father is not one being known as YHWH?
Probably not as you believe in the trinitarian nature of God. But i'm not talking about that.

What i'm suggesting is that the God of Abraham is not the same entity as the God of Moses. What does that mean to your concept of the one true God of the Bible?

EDIT: here is the link i forgot to put in - http://www.newint.org/issue370/god-biography.htm
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
nutshell said:
Well, you're certainly feel to believe that, but, of course, I'm going to tell you you're going to be in a bit of shock when you die and see that God is not a lie.
Well of course you will say that. Hehe. Please note I did not say that God Lied! I said the Christian/Islamic god is a lie. There is a rather profound difference. Nutshell, you personally will be met by your expectations when you croak, hopefully many years from now. Have no doubt. You simply cannot conceive how I view what you call god. It is not possible, otherwise you would not say the things you do. I will remain utterly secure in my awareness of what I conceive god to be. I really do not need a silly book to tell me what I am looking at. There are indeed many surprises for me yet, however, the biggest ones have already come and gone.

nutshell said:
What do you two think God lied about concerning creation and the flood? I don't think God has ever lied, but I'm willing to be proved wrong.
Again, I diverge slightly from Halcyon. God didn't lie.... IT holds its "cards" pretty close to IT's "chest". The error lies with our prophets. It's not my fault they got the message wrong. I prefer to find my own answers, rather than depend on the limp visions of a stunted sterile sense of reality.

Lastly, at this stage of the game, my sense of god knows me rather well. It is inconceivable that he would find much fault with my actions, period.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Halcyon said:
Would it shock you if i said that the entity you know as God the father is not one being known as YHWH?
No. Would it shock you to know that we already know that?

Probably not as you believe in the trinitarian nature of God. But i'm not talking about that.
Was this statement directed to the Latter-day Saints. I thought you knew that we don't accept the Trinity as a true doctrine.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Katzpur said:
No. Would it shock you to know that we already know that?
You already know what exactly? You already knew that Abraham didn't worship the same God as Moses?

Katzpur said:
Was this statement directed to the Latter-day Saints. I thought you knew that we don't accept the Trinity as a true doctrine.
To be honest, i'm still pretty confused as to what you believe exactly :eek: . But i thought you accepted the idea of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as being members of the godhead?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Halcyon said:
Nope. ;)

I think the bible is wrong because this god lied.
I am looking forward to seeing Kathryn's answer, but, in the mean time, do you believe in "one almighty God" ? no definitions as in God YHWH, or Allah..........just one almighty God ?

BTW, I think you'll find that the comment Kathrym made was particular to the trinitarian aspect, and that LDS do believe in the Godhead, which to them is different (no doubt I shall soon be put right if I am wrong):D ,

but maybe this goes to explain the difference:- (and Kathryn, if this is a nonsence site, do tell me)
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/restoring/chap03.html
The LDS Godhead vs. the Mainstream Trinity

As has been discussed, the purpose of this book is to examine the thesis that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a restoration of ancient Christianity. Given this, one would expect to see a trend in the history of Christian doctrine starting from something very similar to the LDS position and ending with current mainstream teachings. Therefore, before we examine this hypothesis with respect to the doctrine of God, it will be necessary to define exactly what the LDS and mainstream belief systems include.

The LDS Concept of the Godhead

</I>"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." (Article of Faith 1) While this statement of faith may seem perfectly mainstream, there are many significant differences between the LDS doctrine of God and that of the bulk of the Christian world. Moreover the differences between any two doctrines of the Godhead in Christianity can usually be understood by comparing the ways in which a number of scriptural propositions are combined and interpreted.

The Godhead of the Bible
The Bible contains four propositions about God that every Christian denomination must reckon with in its theology. (1) First, is that the Bible contains several strongly monotheistic statements. When Moses says, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deuteronomy 6:4), he means, as the Muslims say, "There is no God but God." This view also finds support in God's statement to Isaiah that, "I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10) This tradition is continued in the New Testament as, for example, when Jesus prayed to the Father he said, "And this is life eternal: that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

(2) Second, there is a person called the Father, who is identified as God. The example of Christ's "high-priestly prayer," quoted in part above, should be ample evidence of this fact.

(3) Third, there is a person called the Son in the New Testament, namely Jesus Christ, who is called God. Clearly identifying Jesus as "the Word," John wrote, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)4 Here Jesus is presented as God, but also as distinct from the Father, hence the phrase, "and the Word was with God." There are numerous other examples of this throughout the New Testament. For instance, when confronted by the resurrected Christ, Thomas exclaimed, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28) Paul preached to the Church that they should, "Take heed . . . to feed Church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20:28) Finally, Jesus Christ unequivocally identified himself as Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament when he said, "Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58)

(4) Fourth, there is a person called the Holy Spirit who is identified as God. That the Holy Spirit is God is shown by Peter's accusation of Ananias, "Why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost? . . . Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." (Acts 5:3-4) The New Testament also teaches that the Holy Spirit is a person, distinct from the Father and Son: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (John 14:26; see also Acts 13:2)

One God or Three?
Naturally, these propositions present a problem. Are there three Gods or one? For Latter-day Saints, it is acceptable to say both that there is one God, and that there is a plurality of Gods, depending on the context. For example, in one sense the Father is "the only true God." "Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . ; but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all."5 That is, even if there are other Gods, the one with ultimate power and authority pertaining to us is the Father. In another sense there is a plurality of Gods. Again, quoting Joseph Smith, "I have always declared [that] . . . these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods."6

And in yet another sense, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can be spoken of as "one God." The Book of Mormon prophet Nephi preached the way to salvation, which he called "the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end." (2 Nephi 31:21) What is the nature of this "oneness"? In Jesus' great Intercessory Prayer (see John 17)7, He asked that His disciples would be made one in Him as He was one in the Father. Joseph Smith explained:

Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow--three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. "Father, I pray not for the world, but I pray for them which thou hast given me." "Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom thou has given me, that they may be one as we are." All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God--he would be a giant or a monster. I want to read the text to you myself--"I am agreed with the Father and the Father is agreed with me, and we are agreed as one." The Greek shows that it should be agreed. "Father, I pray for them which Thou has given me out of the world, and not for those alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be agreed, as Thou, Father, are with me, and I with Thee, that they also may be agreed with us," and all come to dwell in unity, and in all the glory and everlasting burnings of the Gods; and then we shall see as we are seen, and be as our God and He as His Father.8

Therefore, the Godhead consists of truly separate beings--even separate Gods--who are one in the sense of their total unity of will and love. The Prophet correctly noted that this type of oneness is consistent with Jesus' expectation that his disciples would be "one" as He and the Father are "one." (John 17:11, 21-24)

Consistent with the idea that the Father is the "only true God," the Prophet also preached "subordinationism," the idea that the Son and Spirit are subordinate in power, rank, and glory to the Father. "Any person that had seen the heavens opened knows that there are three personages in the heavens who hold the keys of power, and one [the Father] presides over all."9

What Kind of Being is God?
The Prophet also taught a startling doctrine about the physical nature of God. He preached that "if you were to see [God] today, you would see him like a man in form,"10 and that "the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit." (D&C 130:22) Indeed, the Spirit of God and the spirit of man are both material substance. (D&C 131:7-8) Consistent with all of this, Joseph Smith taught that man is of the same race as God. The spirit of man existed before this mortal life, and
 
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