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Jesus' Final Words
- Thread starter Rex
- Start date
Azhria Lilu
Member
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John... not very Jewish sounding names, are they?... sorry thinking aloud....
The bible was written a minimum of 100 years after the alleged death of Jesus.. - I say alleged because it isn't my belief, but I have no wish to offend.... but I digress -anyway, 100 years after the death of J.. so any dying words he may or may not have said will have been changed/forgotten/added to.
The bible was written a minimum of 100 years after the alleged death of Jesus.. - I say alleged because it isn't my belief, but I have no wish to offend.... but I digress -anyway, 100 years after the death of J.. so any dying words he may or may not have said will have been changed/forgotten/added to.
Stained_Class
Member
Just for reference:
Matthew: 37 CE
Mark: 57 CE
Luke: 63 CE
John: 85 CE
Acts: 66 CE
Romans: 60 CE
I Corinthians: 59 CE
II Corinthians: 60 CE
Galacians: 60 CE
Ephesians: 64 CE
Philippians: (date unknown)
Colossians: (date unknown)
I Thessalonians: 54 CE
II Thessalonians: 54 CE
I Timothy: 65 CE
II Timothy: 66 CE
Titus: 65 CE
Epistles
Hebrews: 70 CE
James: 60-62 CE
I Peter: 60 CE
II Peter: 66 CE
I John: 90 CE
II John: 90 CE
III John: 90 CE
Jude: 66 CE
Revelation: 96 CE
Christ's death - around 30 CE
Words or phrases that were lost were mostly due to Greek to Hebrew to Latin translations (or any permutation thereof).
Matthew: 37 CE
Mark: 57 CE
Luke: 63 CE
John: 85 CE
Acts: 66 CE
Romans: 60 CE
I Corinthians: 59 CE
II Corinthians: 60 CE
Galacians: 60 CE
Ephesians: 64 CE
Philippians: (date unknown)
Colossians: (date unknown)
I Thessalonians: 54 CE
II Thessalonians: 54 CE
I Timothy: 65 CE
II Timothy: 66 CE
Titus: 65 CE
Epistles
Hebrews: 70 CE
James: 60-62 CE
I Peter: 60 CE
II Peter: 66 CE
I John: 90 CE
II John: 90 CE
III John: 90 CE
Jude: 66 CE
Revelation: 96 CE
Christ's death - around 30 CE
Words or phrases that were lost were mostly due to Greek to Hebrew to Latin translations (or any permutation thereof).
Azhria Lilu
Member
Christ's death is ASSUMED to be around 30CE.. as there is no actual record of his existence or of the existence of a man called Jesus of that time who was crucified.
Master Hoomer
Member
I heard there was no Bethlehem historically till well after Jesus' death...... 
But I think Jesus is an archetype (original greek usage NOT Jungian)......so historical proof is bunk....
But I think Jesus is an archetype (original greek usage NOT Jungian)......so historical proof is bunk....
Stained_Class
Member
Christ's death is ASSUMED to be around 30CE.. as there is no actual record of his existence or of the existence of a man called Jesus of that time who was crucified.
Could you please point me to this particular reference from the Misguided Anti-Christian Handbook. I can't seem to remember which page this was on.
Read Elizabeth Clare Prophet's The Lost Years of Jesus, she'll straighten you out.
Could you please point me to this particular reference from the Misguided Anti-Christian Handbook. I can't seem to remember which page this was on.
Read Elizabeth Clare Prophet's The Lost Years of Jesus, she'll straighten you out.
Azhria Lilu
Member
Bear with me and I'll get the details.... while I'm at it I'll find you a reference on not jumping to conclusions because someone's opinion doesn't agree with your own - I am NOT anti-christian, I simply do not follow that faith. I think I might find you a book on manners too.
Azhria Lilu
Member
She was there at the time then, was she?
The following is a comprehensive list of the world renowned historians who were alive at the supposed time of Jesus or in the century following and it is of conclusive proof that not one of these meticulous recorders and archivists of the history of their times records the alleged history and activities of Jesus, especially when it is observed how closely they have recorded all the minutest details of their times in hundreds of volumes of their writings.
Arrian
Petronius
Seneca
Dion Pruseus
Pliny the Elder
Appian
Juvenal
Theon of Smyrna
Martial
Plutarch
Appolonius
Pausanias
Valerius Flaccus
Florus Lucius
Quintillian
Favorinus
Lucanus
Damis
Silius Italicus
Aulus Gellius
Statius
Columella
Ptolemy
Dio Chrysostom
Hermogeones
Lysias
Valerius Maximus
The only vague reference which could be construed as referring to Jesus was made by the Roman historian Tacitus in the second century CE when he quotes hearsay circulating in his own time in a single reference to the alleged crucufixion when discussing the alleged burning (by the Christians) of the city of Rome in the time of Emperor Nero. It is noteworthy that Tacitus does not quote any Roman documents or authorities in support of the anecdote and makes no further reference to Jesus.
And just to set you straight on another point, I NEVER said I personally didn't believe he existed as I do think a man called Jesus did exist.
The way I see it is if he existed, even in the stories, he wasn't that important to the world as they saw him.
He was hanging out with the lowest of the low in society.
Of course, I am biased, because I believe he existed. I don't see any reason really NOT to though - and with who is today I find it more logical, to me, to believe he at least existed.
He was hanging out with the lowest of the low in society.
Of course, I am biased, because I believe he existed. I don't see any reason really NOT to though - and with who is today I find it more logical, to me, to believe he at least existed.
Stained_Class
Member
I think I might find you a book on manners too.
Good, I like reading. That would be very kind of you.
Good, I like reading. That would be very kind of you.
Stained_Class
Member
And on to your mammouth list of enlightened scholars from the times of yore, I must admit, the list is impressive. Most of these were satirists and/or poets and philosophers of this respective time. "Historians" should be used with caution, as this craft was not introduced until much later, and resembles nowhere near the skills and abilities of today, especially with attention to detail and most importantly, "evidence" as we refer to it today (although the jury is still out with me conerning academia)
"Petronius" ... right. Wasn't he Nero's personal tutor? Surely the likes of those who frequent dictators, the aristocracy, and the learned would have very little to do with someone who spent a majority of his time in the desert with the homeless, the blind, prostitutes and lepers. But I digress. There's no documentation of Abraham either, but that hasn't stopped him from being regarded as the father of all the Arabs and Jews ... and they've been killing each other over this claim ever since.
Which makes me wonder, perhaps it is not our great creator who should be blamed for the strife about us, but instead this virus known as the human race. Which, once eradicated, will finally give this planet a chance to thrive.
I'll comment more when inspiration consumes me a bit more than it has this morning.
"Petronius" ... right. Wasn't he Nero's personal tutor? Surely the likes of those who frequent dictators, the aristocracy, and the learned would have very little to do with someone who spent a majority of his time in the desert with the homeless, the blind, prostitutes and lepers. But I digress. There's no documentation of Abraham either, but that hasn't stopped him from being regarded as the father of all the Arabs and Jews ... and they've been killing each other over this claim ever since.
Which makes me wonder, perhaps it is not our great creator who should be blamed for the strife about us, but instead this virus known as the human race. Which, once eradicated, will finally give this planet a chance to thrive.
I'll comment more when inspiration consumes me a bit more than it has this morning.
Azhria Lilu
Member
Very true.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there.
Just because I am not christian, therefore see the great creator as something slightly different, that doesn't mean I won't cede a good point when it's made.
Azhria Lilu
Member
Anyway, forgot to add.. the point I was simply making with my original post was that it happened such a long time ago... and... frankly (using the basis that it is true) he was up on a cross at the time, quite high up I imagine.. so I don't think his dying words would have been very clear unless he had the energy to shout them.. so there are bound to be differing opinions as to what he said... emotions would have been running high, so mistakes could have been made......that's all i was saying
dedede....
We go from the topic Jesus' Final Words to Did he even exist, very interesting....
To begin, I myself don't understand if this is a discussion or an argument, people seem to be rather prefixed on undermining one another and not respecting one's beliefs! That being said, let me reply to the topic first, then to the other gibberish after!
Faith and belief is wonderful thing. Respecting one's faith is not a Christian thing but more a moral human attribute that any decent person should posses.
Jesus' Final Words
Although many books were written before John, it noted in theology that John was closest to Jesus and his writings where far more centered on the actual event as opposed to other writings that are more centered on telling Jesus's story.
At the time of Jesus's death, when he was upon the cross Jesus looked to John and told him "Behold thy Mother". This is part of the "prophecy" that begins in the "Genesis 3:15", where Mary is first to be told of! It's is also common fact that John was the guardian of Mary after Jesus's death. All the other apostles died violent deaths but John, who died around 98CE! Some believe he died the same day as Mary, seeing his guardianship of Mary ended hence his job was done!
Did he even exist
That purely based on your faith and what you believe.
jtb!
We go from the topic Jesus' Final Words to Did he even exist, very interesting....
To begin, I myself don't understand if this is a discussion or an argument, people seem to be rather prefixed on undermining one another and not respecting one's beliefs! That being said, let me reply to the topic first, then to the other gibberish after!
Faith and belief is wonderful thing. Respecting one's faith is not a Christian thing but more a moral human attribute that any decent person should posses.
Jesus' Final Words
Although many books were written before John, it noted in theology that John was closest to Jesus and his writings where far more centered on the actual event as opposed to other writings that are more centered on telling Jesus's story.
At the time of Jesus's death, when he was upon the cross Jesus looked to John and told him "Behold thy Mother". This is part of the "prophecy" that begins in the "Genesis 3:15", where Mary is first to be told of! It's is also common fact that John was the guardian of Mary after Jesus's death. All the other apostles died violent deaths but John, who died around 98CE! Some believe he died the same day as Mary, seeing his guardianship of Mary ended hence his job was done!
Did he even exist
That purely based on your faith and what you believe.
jtb!
It was observed and accurately reported by the gosopel writers that Jesus said all of those things prior to his death. The statement "It is finished" is extremely significant because it indicates that Jesus completed His perfect work of redemption on the cross. TRanslated from the Greek, it literally means "The debt has been paid". What debt? The sin debt that each of us owed to the Father and are incapable of repaying ourselves. Hence, the need for a Savior who could pay this debt for us because He was perfectly holy and sinless. It is vital that we understand this since many religions proclaim faith and allegiance to Christ but reject that He fully redeemed mankind upon His death. Our redemption is not an ongoing process, made possible by our good works, piety, sufferings, etc. None of those things are acceptable to the Father for atonement of our sins. Only the perfect work of Christ can atone for our sins. When true Christ followers say that they have trusted Christ as their Lord and Savior, this is what they mean--They have believed, accepted, trusted that Jesus completed His work of redemption on their behalf on Calvary and that there is absolutely nothing further they could ever offer to add to this. Does that mean they are exempt from living a godly life? As Paul said "May it never be!" Saved sinners, out of loving, grateful gratitude to the One Who saved them, want to live a life which is pleasing to their Master--hence good works naturally follow a changed life.
Thank You and God bless.
Thank You and God bless.
headhunter
New Member
That last post makes a crucial point, about the vicarious atonement.
Provided Jesus and the cross are a historical truth, then, taken in the relative context from Jesus' frame of reference and then framed within the context of the larger history, even to this day, and forever,
- and the implications of it are simply astounding!
Provided Jesus and the cross are a historical truth, then, taken in the relative context from Jesus' frame of reference and then framed within the context of the larger history, even to this day, and forever,
- and the implications of it are simply astounding!
Rex
Founder
jtb said:
This post was made before the new forum rules were added. The new rule was that each individual forum pertaining to a religion will be for educational posting only and no argueing debating unless it has meaning in that same religion.
Other wise you will see these types of comments put to rest or the whole topic moved to the debate section!
:goodjob: