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savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
When the meaning established itself, how will the correct meaning be accomplished?

Matthew 7:23

Every translation has Jesus at the end telling the false disciples that they should depart from him. How does that make sense?

This is what I think it means. Am I alone?

He is saying the works you do are apart from him, they are according to lawlessness. Not as in breaking the law. Lawless means to miss the mark.

The difference? It is the custom to believe he comes when it is too late to chose righteousness. That's plain not true. To believe it is lawlessness.

The same problem exists with understanding Matthew 25:31-46
It does not mean to, it means for. For life or for destruction.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How else is there a difference. One has Jesus being a bully. The other one has Jesus being a warning.

How else? If it means expectation for future events how can you see it if it is happening now?
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Another example. I cannot make it about sex and/or poor rich women but I would if I could.

Luke 14:31
suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace

May I suggest the king with ten thousand pictures Y'ushua A'Mashiyach and the ten thousand pictures his sheep? The King with twenty thousand pictures Man and the twenty thousand pictures the goats.

Is it not in the best interest of the sheep to sue for peace? But what are they doing? They are claiming it is already decided.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Someone will say I am a believer but I don't know how. That is what Matthew 7:23 means. He knows how. But you do not. How is that possible? It does not mean GET AWAY. It means you ARE away. "Draw close to God and God will draw close to you" Then what? Then you are able to do the WILL of God.
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
you might be reading to deep, and not in the proper context of first century roman hellenistic theology.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
outhouse said:
you might be reading to deep, and not in the proper context of first century roman hellenistic theology.
Click to expand...

Yes it's possible and maybe I'm not. If "First Century Hellenistic Theology" knocked on my "door" I surely would not let it in.

John 18:16
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

Matthew 6:22
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore your eye be single, your whole body shall be full of light

Revelation 14:7
Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water

Not in a million years could I imagine The Lord sitting down with me, eating and talking about First Century Hellenistic Theology but I might be wrong. Thank you for your answer.
 
A

Awoon

Well-Known Member
savagewind said:
Someone will say I am a believer but I don't know how. That is what Matthew 7:23 means. He knows how. But you do not. How is that possible? It does not mean GET AWAY. It means you ARE away. "Draw close to God and God will draw close to you" Then what? Then you are able to do the WILL of God.
Click to expand...

Draw close to God simply means follow the Torah. However one must know and study the Torah not Christian teachings. There were no Christians hanging around the Jesus of MMLJ.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Draw close to God simply means follow the Torah. However one must know and study the Torah not Christian teachings.
Click to expand...

John 10
3 The watchman opens the gate for the shepherd, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them

Does this scripture agree or disagree with the Torah please?
 
A

Awoon

Well-Known Member
savagewind said:
John 10
3 The watchman opens the gate for the shepherd, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them

Does this scripture agree or disagree with the Torah please?
Click to expand...


It agrees. G-D was always the shepherd for the Jews. Jesus taught his understanding of the Torah which had been corrupted over the centuries according to Jesus.

Now the gospel creators expand those teachings of Jesus to include all peoples with stories like the woman at the well, healing non Jews, being respectfull to non Jews.

Whether any of that really happened is up for grabs today.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have to disagree that it agrees with the law code on the books. I believe the law should be obeyed in spirit. So I believe in law. But the law is what is behind us. Verse four says he goes on ahead of them and they follow him. They listen to his voice (God is A Spirit). It does not say they listen to the law. Spirit and Messiah Y'ushua A'Mashiyach does not equal law. Law is a tool, not a person.
 
A

Awoon

Well-Known Member
savagewind said:
I have to disagree that it agrees with the law code on the books. I believe the law should be obeyed in spirit. So I believe in law. But the law is what is behind us. Verse four says he goes on ahead of them and they follow him. They listen to his voice (God is A Spirit). It does not say they listen to the law. Spirit and Messiah Y'ushua A'Mashiyach does not equal law. Law is a tool, not a person.
Click to expand...


Law is Principles which societies live by. Societies are people.

Obey the 65 mph speed limit in spirit , however when you get caught doing 75mph in 65mph tell the judge about your spiritual beliefes.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The definition that seems to be supported by many Jews on forum is
a systematic statement of a body of law; especially : one given statutory force. And some seem to be equating it to HOW God can be realized in one's life. And the only way. Am I not reading them correctly?
 
A

Awoon

Well-Known Member
savagewind said:
The definition that seems to be supported by many Jews on forum is
a systematic statement of a body of law; especially : one given statutory force. And some seem to be equating it to HOW God can be realized in one's life. And the only way. Am I not reading them correctly?
Click to expand...


I dont know. You asked for opinion I gave some. All law is only as strong as the people who follow them are. There will always be those who dont hear the voice of the Law Shepard and go outside until they get caught by the societies that create the laws.
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
savagewind said:
Yes it's possible and maybe I'm not. If "First Century Hellenistic Theology" knocked on my "door" I surely would not let it in.

John 18:16
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

Matthew 6:22
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore your eye be single, your whole body shall be full of light

Revelation 14:7
Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water

Not in a million years could I imagine The Lord sitting down with me, eating and talking about First Century Hellenistic Theology but I might be wrong. Thank you for your answer.
Click to expand...


wonderful!

you have provided excellent examples of taking scripture out of context


mystery solved
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
outhouse said:
wonderful!

you have provided excellent examples of taking scripture out of context


mystery solved
Click to expand...

LOL do you ever do that?

Because if you never do it, then you would know when someone is doing it. But then again if you always know when something is being taken "out of context" you would be God. I know you are not God.
 
Last edited:
Super Universe

Super Universe

Defender of God
savagewind said:
When the meaning established itself, how will the correct meaning be accomplished?

Matthew 7:23

Every translation has Jesus at the end telling the false disciples that they should depart from him. How does that make sense?

This is what I think it means. Am I alone?

He is saying the works you do are apart from him, they are according to lawlessness. Not as in breaking the law. Lawless means to miss the mark.

The difference? It is the custom to believe he comes when it is too late to chose righteousness. That's plain not true. To believe it is lawlessness.

The same problem exists with understanding Matthew 25:31-46
It does not mean to, it means for. For life or for destruction.
Click to expand...

The key sentence is "The decisive issue is whether they obey my Father in heaven." Jesus has great power over this area of the universe and while He controls the gateway to heaven He goes by God's rules for who is allowed to pass.

To enter heaven you have to be willing to give yourself completely to God's will, not what you think God's will is or what you want God's will to be.
 
Super Universe

Super Universe

Defender of God
Matthew 25:31 through 41 is "The Final Judgement". Often misinterpreted to mean that all of humanity will face a final judgement, not true. You are judged for your own actions, not as a species.

It means that the person who recognizes that even the least worthy human being is an equal in the eyes of God is, essentially, the Son of Man. If you show true caring for those in need and even to those not worthy then you are also equal to the Son of Man, Jesus.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Super Universe said:
Matthew 25:31 through 41 is "The Final Judgement". Often misinterpreted to mean that all of humanity will face a final judgement, not true. You are judged for your own actions, not as a species.

It means that the person who recognizes that even the least worthy human being is an equal in the eyes of God is, essentially, the Son of Man. If you show true caring for those in need and even to those not worthy then you are also equal to the Son of Man, Jesus.
Click to expand...

I understand that it might be true that all of humanity CAN face a final judgement. Is that NOT what Y'ushua A'Mashiyach and his force are trying to avoid? Is the final judgement extinction? It is what God is avoiding? I apprehend that the last judgement is neither against the individual nor the collective. It is against time, isn't it? And the final decision should be for all who are for life, truth and justice. It's not about a man's works. It is about the product.
 
Super Universe

Super Universe

Defender of God
savagewind said:
I understand that it might be true that all of humanity CAN face a final judgement. Is that NOT what Y'ushua A'Mashiyach and his force are trying to avoid? Is the final judgement extinction? It is what God is avoiding? I apprehend that the last judgement is neither against the individual nor the collective. It is against time, isn't it? And the final decision should be for all who are for life, truth and justice. It's not about a man's works. It is about the product.
Click to expand...

It's not about works nor is it about what you produce, it's about accepting God's universe as it is and being willing to give yourself over to making it better.

Even good works can be tainted, does a person donate time/money to religious causes because they want something in return? If so, then they're just as selfish as the person who does nothing for others.

Or do you feel that you've already been given your reward just by being born on a beautiful planet and having a chance to wonder and learn and experience your Father's incredible creation and eventually make it back to heaven?
 
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