Grand theft morality

Are our theological views responsible for the actions of those we instruct and debate?

So I've spent the last month trying to convince a friend of mine that morality is purely subjective and I've finally started getting somewhere with him.... Well today I found out that he just got arrested for grand theft auto and trying to sell stolen merchandise. This isn't normal for him. Hmmm I hope it isn't the morality conversation that did it. Maybe I should have emphasized the reasons to maintain morality even when you know it has nothing to do with God or spirituality. You have to use maturity to determine morality. For instance, even though I'm no longer a Christian I still refuse to lie yet no morality hold me from lying. I refuse to lie because it benefits me. The more people who know that I'm honest and trustworthy the easier it is to make my way through life and the more benefits ill receive from said popular opinion. Without God to govern morality you must govern it with maturity and intellect. Hmm, I really hope I'm not partially responsible for his actions.

You worry too much. If you really didn't believe in absolute morality, this shouldn't matter.

Are our theological views responsible for the actions of those we instruct and debate?

Click to expand...

No

you just need better friends

The Sum of Awe said:

You worry too much. If you really didn't believe in absolute morality, this shouldn't matter.

Click to expand...

This assumes that an absolute morality is the only possible means of cultivating morality that there is. Again, I get the sense that you negate the value of your own subjective experience. If you pay attention then you would notice the subtle moral intuition that may guide your own behavior to a certain degree. Do you have friends or family that you care for? Would you be concerned if they pursued a destructive path and wish to re-direct them in a more beneficial manner? If not, then why not?

Straw Dog said:

This assumes that an absolute morality is the only possible means of cultivating morality that there is. Again, I get the sense that you negate the value of your own subjective experience. If you pay attention then you would notice the subtle moral intuition that may guide your own behavior to a certain degree. Do you have friends or family that you care for? Would you be concerned if they pursued a destructive path and wish to re-direct them in a more beneficial manner? If not, then why not?

Click to expand...

The fact I'm concerned doesn't stop them, they'd disagree with me. Since when does a criminal follow the law? The same answer would imply to: Since when does someone you consider immoral care about your morals?

I definitely love my parents, and wouldn't like to see them become a psychopath, but what I wouldn't like and like doesn't matter. Nothing matters.

Did you tell him your opinion is he should enter into a life of crime? Maybe then you would be somewhat culpable, however he is responsible for his own choices and who he chose to take advice from. That is worst case, OK no..Worst case would be you showed him the car and said go ahead kid . Even then unless u also fed him hallucinogenic as well...ok That would be worst case.. Unless you did any of this he is responsible for the choices he makes and the consequences of those choices doesn't matter what your beliefs are IMHO.

The Sum of Awe said:

The fact I'm concerned doesn't stop them, they'd disagree with me. Since when does a criminal follow the law? The same answer would imply to: Since when does someone you consider immoral care about your morals?

I definitely love my parents, and wouldn't like to see them become a psychopath, but what I wouldn't like and like doesn't matter. Nothing matters.

Click to expand...

It may stop them if they genuinely considered you a friend as well and willing to listen to your advice. How do you define a criminal without morality? Are they not still human and capable of reform? I don't think it's so much forcing them to follow your specific moral code as it is inspiring them to cultivate their own moral sense.

Apparently, your parents matter. That's a start.

The Sum of Awe said:

You worry too much. If you really didn't believe in absolute morality, this shouldn't matter.

Click to expand...

It shouldn't matter if someone you care about is going to prison?

Even is morality is subjective, actions still have consequences.

The Sum of Awe said:

You worry too much. If you really didn't believe in absolute morality, this shouldn't matter.

Click to expand...

Ah, but I still have a form of morality even if it is subjective to self. One of those moral values is not to cause harm to those I care for. So at this point I wonder if I have inadvertently broken my own moral code by pushing a philosophy that someone else was to immature or unintelligent to handle properly.

gseeker said:

Ah, but I still have a form of morality even if it is subjective to self. One of those moral values is not to cause harm to those I care for. So at this point I wonder if I have inadvertently broken my own moral code by pushing a philosophy that someone else was to immature or unintelligent to handle properly.

Click to expand...

I see that you have deep concern even guilt. Perhaps you should ask him? Ask him if your morality discussions effected his choice . If he says yes, well set him straight that subjective morality is not permission to break laws. I mean even you without any God still are accountable to the laws of the country/state/city you live in right? I would think those are not subjective morals, maybe I am wrong...

As an aside that may be beneficial to the general topic, I don't know that there is a definite distinction between the subjective and the objective. I don't see it as a wall so much as a bridge. Just because something is subjectively derived doesn't mean that it doesn't have a profound effect upon objective reality and create a feedback loop in the process. They are two sides to the same coin.

Lady B said:

I see that you have deep concern even guilt. Perhaps you should ask him? Ask him if your morality discussions effected his choice . If he says yes, well set him straight that subjective morality is not permission to break laws. I mean even you without any God still are accountable to the laws of the country/state/city you live in right? I would think those are not subjective morals, maybe I am wrong...

Click to expand...

Reasonable point so I thought I'd quote it, plus I know that it can be a little irritating when you post something and then someone else opens a new page with their post haha. I hope he gets to read and reflect on it.

Lady B said:

Did you tell him your opinion is he should enter into a life of crime? Maybe then you would be somewhat culpable, however he is responsible for his own choices and who he chose to take advice from. That is worst case, OK no..Worst case would be you showed him the car and said go ahead kid . Even then unless u also fed him hallucinogenic as well...ok That would be worst case.. Unless you did any of this he is responsible for the choices he makes and the consequences of those choices doesn't matter what your beliefs are IMHO.

Click to expand...

Telling him that would be like threatening him, isn't threatening someone immoral to you? I always thought moralists believed it wasn't good to threaten someone... All of the suspensions from school I have gotten from threatening seem to be the proof, and also those mindless, bigoted humanists on facebook telling Christians that threatening hell was immoral.

Straw Dog said:

It may stop them if they genuinely considered you a friend as well and willing to listen to your advice. How do you define a criminal without morality? Are they not still human and capable of reform? I don't think it's so much forcing them to follow your specific moral code as it is inspiring them to cultivate their own moral sense.

Click to expand...

Inspiring someone to change their morals perhaps, as he already would technically have a goal, which leads to proof of ethics, which branch off to having proof of morals.

What would convince someone to change their rules? And better yet, WHY convince someone to change their rules?

Apparently, your parents matter. That's a start.

Click to expand...

Matter to me, at least, but what matters to me, doesn't matter to everyone else. Hence, nothing matters.

Father Heathen said:

It shouldn't matter if someone you care about is going to prison?

Even is morality is subjective, actions still have consequences.

Click to expand...

Yes, but most consequences will be resolved if we created a world-wide system of freedom. The rest of the consequences would be led by the idiots who lack common sense... or else either masochists who would love the "consequences", thus it isn't really a consequence to them.

gseeker said:

Ah, but I still have a form of morality even if it is subjective to self. One of those moral values is not to cause harm to those I care for. So at this point I wonder if I have inadvertently broken my own moral code by pushing a philosophy that someone else was to immature or unintelligent to handle properly.

Click to expand...

Why does someone disagreeing with your moral code automatically make them immature or unintelligent. Not everybody matters to you, and not everybody who matters to you matters to everybody.

Straw Dog said:

As an aside that may be beneficial to the general topic, I don't know that there is a definite distinction between the subjective and the objective. I don't see it as a wall so much as a bridge. Just because something is subjectively derived doesn't mean that it doesn't have a profound effect upon objective reality and create a feedback loop in the process. They are two sides to the same coin.

Click to expand...

It's not a wall or a bridge, it's the difference between a camera shot from a tree, from a camera built in every X.

(X = the smallest part of anything, continuously breaking everything down ad infinitum)

Lady B said:

I see that you have deep concern even guilt. Perhaps you should ask him? Ask him if your morality discussions effected his choice . If he says yes, well set him straight that subjective morality is not permission to break laws. I mean even you without any God still are accountable to the laws of the country/state/city you live in right? I would think those are not subjective morals, maybe I am wrong...

Click to expand...

They are subjective compared to cities, states, and countries (how each city, state and country has different laws). They are in disagreement by different individuals who live under these laws as well.

Lady B said:

Did you tell him your opinion is he should enter into a life of crime? Maybe then you would be somewhat culpable, however he is responsible for his own choices and who he chose to take advice from. That is worst case, OK no..Worst case would be you showed him the car and said go ahead kid . Even then unless u also fed him hallucinogenic as well...ok That would be worst case.. Unless you did any of this he is responsible for the choices he makes and the consequences of those choices doesn't matter what your beliefs are IMHO.

Click to expand...

Let me explain it like this. We all know that ideas can be just as dangerous as any physical object. So lets say you gave a gun to a person without considering first if that person was responsible enough to have a gun. Then lets say that person shot themselves,at that point aren't you partially responsible for what happened? And does that end up being a violation of morality?

Straw Dog said:

As an aside that may be beneficial to the general topic, I don't know that there is a definite distinction between the subjective and the objective. I don't see it as a wall so much as a bridge. Just because something is subjectively derived doesn't mean that it doesn't have a profound effect upon objective reality and create a feedback loop in the process. They are two sides to the same coin.

Click to expand...

I agree.:clap:clap

gseeker said:

Well today I found out that he just got arrested for grand theft auto and trying to sell stolen merchandise. This isn't normal for him. Hmmm I hope it isn't the morality conversation that did it.

Click to expand...

I can guarantee is had nothing to do with the discussion. It is a fact, after all, that Christians do behave badly. He will probably just ask God's forgiveness and all will be hunky dory according to his belief system.

Why does someone disagreeing with your moral code automatically make them immature or unintelligent. Not everybody matters to you, and not everybody who matters to you matters to everybody.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying that he was unintelligent or immature because he disagreed with my personal morals but because he couldn't consider morality subjective without becoming self destructive.

gseeker said:

I'm not saying that he was unintelligent or immature because he disagreed with my personal morals but because he couldn't consider morality subjective without becoming self destructive.

Click to expand...

But what if he's doing it not just because morality is subjective, but he finds it fun?