Is Trinity in the Bible?

sushannah · Dec 30, 2005

No, I am not a trinitarian. My real issue with the trinity is why didn't the disciples believe this when they knew Jesus better than anybody. The disciples continued to live as observant Jews, who believed that Jesus was the Messiah. This is contrary to any belief in trinity, as one of the basic tenets of Judaism was and still is that G-d is only one.

benjosh · Dec 30, 2005

Hi susshannah,

You said,

sushannah said:
Hi, I was just wondering how everyone who is quoting NT scripture as a basis for belief in trinity, account for the fact that the disciples of Jesus (who didn't have NT) also did not believe in trinity, or even in the divinity of Jesus for that matter. Before you can believe that G-d and Jesus are the same being, you must believe he is divine! This was not established until 325 A.D.

What you said sounds very rational to me.
And , that's too far to one side of the logic faith continuum to lead me to convince you of anything about the trinity. The trinity doesn't make logical sense to most people. Because people take things apart but forget to put them back together.
THere's a paradox relationship in all things and your post is really polarized to one side.
Want to come in the other direction a little bit?
This spirit matter paradox is what natural science is now teaching us about faith.
Well , at least the Intelligent design camp anyway.

BenJosh

dawny0826 · Dec 30, 2005

sushannah said:
Hi, I was just wondering how everyone who is quoting NT scripture as a basis for belief in trinity, account for the fact that the disciples of Jesus (who didn't have NT) also did not believe in trinity, or even in the divinity of Jesus for that matter. Before you can believe that G-d and Jesus are the same being, you must believe he is divine! This was not established until 325 A.D.

I disagree...again you're looking at trinity not from a spiritual perspective but from a scholarly perspective....you're NEVER going to understand...

And from my study of the Bible...I interpret quite differently than you do...I believe that the disciples believed VERY much in the trinity concept...because they believed in JESUS CHRIST. They worshipped Christ. They loved Christ...In truth, I think they were the first true Christians...so, I'm pretty confident that they KNEW of the same trinity (FATHER, SON and HOLY GHOST) that I know of...on a very personal and SPIRITUAL level. They SAW Christ resurrected...THEY experienced him in life AND death...sorry, but I strongly feel that they understood incredibly well...

Too much is put into a WORD...and when you do so....you completely lose sight of what it truly MEANS...

This is a matter of SPIRIT not of MIND...

dawny0826 · Dec 30, 2005

benjosh said:
dawny0826 said

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT !

How about if experiencing the trinty is not just in every day of your life but in every cell of your body?
That's what the D&C says. RLDS 85:6c. for, notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again a spiritual body: they who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body, which was a natural body: even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. 6d. Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory, shall then receive of the same, even a fullness;
ANd what's happening in celestial glory? WHo's there?

D&C 76:7r. . . . when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work, when he shall deliver up the kingdom and present it unto the Father spotless, saying:
7s. I have overcome and have trodden the wine press alone, even the wine press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God; then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign for ever and ever.
7t. But, behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore, and heard the voice of the Lord saying:
7u. These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne for ever and ever; 7v. for they shall be judged according to their works; and every man shall receive according to his own works, and his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared, and they shall be servants of the Most High, but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

In other words, celestial glory is being in the presence of the Three in One.

You have just had a micro-course in Three-ol- ogy 101

BenJosh

Threeology 101

I like that.

dawny0826 · Dec 30, 2005

may said:
7 For there are three witness bearers, 8 the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement. 1 john 5;7-8 now thats more like it, lets get it right according to how it should be .... adding words to the bible is not a good thing to do it misleads people into believing a lie should as the trinity teaching

After "witness bearers" אABVgSyh,p omit the words added in later Gr. mss and Vgc, namely: "in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one. (8) And there are three witness bearers on earth

"For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement."1Jo 5:7, 8.

This rendering is in agreement with the Greek texts by C. Tischendorf (eighth ed., 1872); Westcott and Hort (1881); Augustinus Merk (ninth ed., 1964); José María Bover (fifth ed., 1968); United Bible Societies (third ed., 1975); Nestle-Aland (26th ed., 1979).

After "witness bearers" the cursive mss No. 61 (16th century) and No. 629 (in Latin and Greek, 14th to 15th century) and Vgc add the words: "in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one. (8) And there are three witness bearers on earth." But these words are omitted by אABVgSyh,p. oh dear adding to the inspired word of God does not go well with the true God Jehovah. still not everyone is led along to believe lies added to the bible

I mean no disrespect to you as an individual and appreciate your input on the subject...but if you are quoting from the New World Translation of the Bible...please be mindful that the interpretors of that particular translation had NO formal Greek or Hebrew training and the entire movement was pioneered by a man who was uneducated and actually accused of fraud in connection with Greek and/or (don't remember which or if it was both) Hebrew text.

adding words to the bible is not a good thing to do it misleads people into believing a lie should as the trinity teaching

Yeah, I agree. And someone NEEDED to tell that to Charles T. Russel.

dawny0826 · Dec 30, 2005

May,

First off...Hi. I don't think I've "chatted" with you yet. So...a warm hello...

I did want to add something else...

The Trinity isn't so much a concept to be UNDERSTOOD with our minds as it is to be felt SPIRITUALLY. If you reject Christ for WHO he is, our Lord and Saviour...I don't believe that you can have a clear understanding of the trinity concept. God's plan was for us to go through his Son to become one with him. And we do so we receive the Holy Spirit.

The New World Tanslation tends to portray Christ as a mere teacher...not as our Lord and Saviour...so right there...YOUR Bible is reading MUCH differently than MOST translations read...transalations which have been in existance before Mr. Russel was born.

I welcome any rebuttals to this...

glasgowchick · Dec 30, 2005

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD:

The Lord our God is one Lord Deu 6:4
There is no other god with Me, i.e., as far as there being a god, I am the only one in heaven Deu 32:39
No God was formed before me or after me Isa 43:10
There is no other God Isa 44:6

2. YET EACH IS CALLED GOD:

Father is called God. Eph 4:6; Jhn 6:27
Son is called God. Hbr 1:8; Tts 2:13; Jhn 1:1; 20:28; 29; 1Jo 5:20
Holy Spirit is called God. Act 5:3, 4

3. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS CREATOR:

Father created by himself. Isa 44:24
Son created all things. Jhn 1:1-3
Holy Spirit created. Job 33:4; 26:13

4. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS ETERNAL:

Father Psa 93:2
Son Mic 5:2; Hbr 1:8
Holy Spirit Hbr 9:14

5. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS INSPIRED:

Father 2Ti 3:16
Son 1Pe 1:10, 11
Holy Spirit 2Pe 1:21

6. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS OMNIPRESENT:

Father Jer 23:24
Son Mat 28:20
Holy Spirit Psa 139:7-10

7. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS OMNISCIENT:

Father Jer 17:10
Son Jhn 2:24
Holy Spirit 1Cr 2:10-12

8. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS OMIPOTENT:

Father Mat 19:26
Son Hbr 1:3
Holy Spirit Rom 15:19

9. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS HOLY:

Father Hab 1:12
Son Act 3:14
Holy Spirit Jhn 14:26

10. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS RESURRECTING JESUS:

Father 1Th 1:10
Son Jhn 2:19-21
Holy Spirit Rom 8:11

11. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS TRUTH:

Father 1Th 1:10
Son Jhn 14:6
Holy Spirit Jhn 14:17

12. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS SANCTIFYING THE BELIEVER:

Father Jhn 10:29
Son Hbr 2:11
Holy Spirit 1Cr 6:11

13. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS PRESERVING THE BELIEVER TO SALVATION:

Father Jhn 10:29
Son Jhn 10:28
Holy Spirit Eph 4:30

14. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS BEING AN INDWELLING PRESENCE:

Father Eph 4:6; 2Cr 6:16; Jhn 14:23
Son Col 1:27; Jhn 14:20, 23
Holy Spirit 1Cr 6:19; Jhn 14:17

15. YET EACH IS DESCRIBED AS LEADING BELIEVERS:

Father Deu 32:12
Son 1Cr 10:1-4
Holy Spirit Isa 63:11-14

Taken from the blue letter bible...

Katzpur · Dec 30, 2005

benjosh said:
How about if experiencing the trinty is not just in every day of your life but in every cell of your body?
That's what the D&C says. RLDS 85:6c. for, notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again a spiritual body: they who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body, which was a natural body: even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. 6d. Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory, shall then receive of the same, even a fullness;
ANd what's happening in celestial glory? WHo's there?

D&C 76:7r. . . . when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work, when he shall deliver up the kingdom and present it unto the Father spotless, saying:
7s. I have overcome and have trodden the wine press alone, even the wine press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God; then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign for ever and ever.
7t. But, behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore, and heard the voice of the Lord saying:
7u. These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne for ever and ever; 7v. for they shall be judged according to their works; and every man shall receive according to his own works, and his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared, and they shall be servants of the Most High, but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

In other words, celestial glory is being in the presence of the Three in One.

You have just had a micro-course in Three-ol- ogy 101

BenJosh

BenJosh,

I just learned something new today. I didn't realize that the RLDS believe in the Trinity until now. Thanks for sharing.

Kathryn

Quiddity · Dec 30, 2005

Katzpur said:
BenJosh,

I just learned something new today. I didn't realize that the RLDS believe in the Trinity until now. Thanks for sharing.

Kathryn

What's RLDS?
Reformed LDS?

wmam · Dec 30, 2005

The Scriptures 98

1Jo 5:7 Because there are three who bear witness:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood. And the three are in agreement.

Analytical-Literal Translation

1Jo 5:7 Because three are the Ones testifying:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are into the one [fig., agree as one].

1901 American Standard Version

1Jo 5:7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

1Jo 5:8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

1965 Bible In Basic English

1Jo 5:7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is true.

1Jo 5:8 There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood: and all three are in agreement.

Contemporary English Version

1Jo 5:7 In fact, there are three who tell about it.

1Jo 5:8 They are the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and they all agree.

1889 Darby Bible

1Jo 5:7 For they that bear witness are three:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one.

English Majority Text Version

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear witness:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

The Good News Bible

1Jo 5:7 There are three witnesses:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and all three give the same testimony.

GODs WORD Bible

1Jo 5:7 There are three witnesses:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood. These three witnesses agree.

Hebrew Names Version

1Jo 5:7 For there are three who testify:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three agree as one.

International Standard Version

1Jo 5:7 For there are three witnesses-

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood-and these three are one.

Even in the Modern King James Version does it show the added words in Italics.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness on the earth:

the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are into the one.

I would just like to say that it seems to be the majority when it comes to this translation.

greatcalgarian · Dec 30, 2005

dawny0826 said:
I disagree...again you're looking at trinity not from a spiritual perspective but from a scholarly perspective....you're NEVER going to understand...

And from my study of the Bible...I interpret quite differently than you do...I believe that the disciples believed VERY much in the trinity concept...because they believed in JESUS CHRIST. They worshipped Christ. They loved Christ...In truth, I think they were the first true Christians...so, I'm pretty confident that they KNEW of the same trinity (FATHER, SON and HOLY GHOST) that I know of...on a very personal and SPIRITUAL level. They SAW Christ resurrected...THEY experienced him in life AND death...sorry, but I strongly feel that they understood incredibly well...

Too much is put into a WORD...and when you do so....you completely lose sight of what it truly MEANS...

This is a matter of SPIRIT not of MIND...

In the beginning was the WORD

, is this the same WORD you referred to above?

benjosh · Dec 30, 2005

Victor said:
What's RLDS?
Reformed LDS?

Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I did a quick history in an another thread.
I can find it for you if you like.

Thanks for your interest. BenJosh

Quiddity · Dec 30, 2005

benjosh said:
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I did a quick history in an another thread.
I can find it for you if you like.

Thanks for your interest. BenJosh

I gotcha now. I did a search and found your movement interesting. I had no idea.

searcher63 · Dec 30, 2005

greatcalgarian said:
, is this the same WORD you referred to above?

The disciples did not worship Christ. Jesus did not expect or desire to be worshipped.
SEEE: (Christ speaking) " Why do you call ME good? There is ONE that is good, the FATHER!"

Yasin · Dec 31, 2005

may said:
7 For there are three witness bearers, 8 the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement. 1 john 5;7-8 now thats more like it, lets get it right according to how it should be .... adding words to the bible is not a good thing to do it misleads people into believing a lie should as the trinity teaching

After "witness bearers" אABVgSyh,p omit the words added in later Gr. mss and Vgc, namely: "in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one. (8) And there are three witness bearers on earth

"For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement."1Jo 5:7, 8.

This rendering is in agreement with the Greek texts by C. Tischendorf (eighth ed., 1872); Westcott and Hort (1881); Augustinus Merk (ninth ed., 1964); José María Bover (fifth ed., 1968); United Bible Societies (third ed., 1975); Nestle-Aland (26th ed., 1979).

After "witness bearers" the cursive mss No. 61 (16th century) and No. 629 (in Latin and Greek, 14th to 15th century) and Vgc add the words: "in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one. (8) And there are three witness bearers on earth." But these words are omitted by אABVgSyh,p. oh dear adding to the inspired word of God does not go well with the true God Jehovah. still not everyone is led along to believe lies added to the bible

Hi May,

I see you are quoting from the new revised versions of the Bible, but you will find it very interesting that this verse: 1 John 5:7 was not found in any of the 16 centry manuscripts, and for that reason the scholars removed this verse, when revising the KJV.......Which may i add is one of the best proofs for Trinity.

Respectively, Yasin:bounce

Yasin · Dec 31, 2005

searcher63 said:
The disciples did not worship Christ. Jesus did not expect or desire to be worshipped.
SEEE: (Christ speaking) " Why do you call ME good? There is ONE that is good, the FATHER!"

I could not agree more!

Yasin:bounce

may · Dec 31, 2005

wmam said:
The Scriptures 98

1Jo 5:7 Because there are three who bear witness:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood. And the three are in agreement.

Analytical-Literal Translation

1Jo 5:7 Because three are the Ones testifying:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are into the one [fig., agree as one].

1901 American Standard Version

1Jo 5:7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

1Jo 5:8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

1965 Bible In Basic English

1Jo 5:7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is true.

1Jo 5:8 There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood: and all three are in agreement.

Contemporary English Version

1Jo 5:7 In fact, there are three who tell about it.

1Jo 5:8 They are the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and they all agree.

1889 Darby Bible

1Jo 5:7 For they that bear witness are three:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one.

English Majority Text Version

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear witness:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

The Good News Bible

1Jo 5:7 There are three witnesses:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and all three give the same testimony.

GODs WORD Bible

1Jo 5:7 There are three witnesses:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood. These three witnesses agree.

Hebrew Names Version

1Jo 5:7 For there are three who testify:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three agree as one.

International Standard Version

1Jo 5:7 For there are three witnesses-

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood-and these three are one.

Even in the Modern King James Version does it show the added words in Italics.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness on the earth:
the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are into the one.

I would just like to say that it seems to be the majority when it comes to this translation.

yes and trinitarians still try to prove the trinity from added spurious words,even thou it is recognized as being spurious dear me ,:banghead3

may · Dec 31, 2005

Yasin said:
Hi May,

I see you are quoting from the new revised versions of the Bible, but you will find it very interesting that this verse: 1 John 5:7 was not found in any of the 16 centry manuscripts, and for that reason the scholars removed this verse, when revising the KJV.......Which may i add is one of the best proofs for Trinity.

Respectively, Yasin:bounce

this is how verse 7 should read
For there are three witness bearers .and this is how verse 8 should read
the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement ...... the added words should be removed and most bibles have done this as they realize that the added words that were put there to try to prove the trinity are spurious words it should not add the following words

in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one ....these words are added words and should not be in the bible they were added to try to prove the trinity not a good thing to do lets get back to the correct words

Yasin · Dec 31, 2005

may said:
this is how verse 7 should read
For there are three witness bearers .and this is how verse 8 should read
the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement ...... the added words should be removed and most bibles have done this as they realize that the added words that were put there to try to prove the trinity are spurious words it should not add the following words

in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one ....these words are added words and should not be in the bible they were added to try to prove the trinity not a good thing to do lets get back to the correct words

You see,

The word of God should not be changed for any reasons, a book claiming to be from God should be untouched in all respects.

Respectively, Yasin:bounce

jeffrey · Dec 31, 2005

Yasin said:
You see,

The word of God should not be changed for any reasons, a book claiming to be from God should be untouched in all respects.

Respectively, Yasin:bounce

That, I agree with. I can't understand how people omit something, claiming it should not have been there, in essence calling the original writters wrong. Does the Bible not teach not to add or take away from it?

Is Trinity in the Bible?

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