The dead rise up...

Pegg said:

Jesus was resurrected in spirit according to 1Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is ...raised up in glory.... 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body....“The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

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I understand what Paul teaches here very clearly.
You need to look at each aspect distinctly.

As I said before, we have rebirth/resurrection, life and death on the physical and on the spiritual levels. We also have them on the flesh and blood (individual) level and we also have them on the flesh and bone (collective) level too. Biblical narratives that speak of flesh and bone (collective) beings need to be deciphered on that level.

So, when Paul is talking about Adam, who was a being of flesh and bone, you need to look at it as a collective salvation issue rather than an individual salvation issue.

When Adam became a "living" soul it was when a group of individuals were given the "breath of life" and they collectively manifested Adam in flesh and bone. So, you had individuals as members composing the flesh and bone body of Adam (per Ephesians 5:30 definition of a flesh and bone body) receiving within them the Spirit of God that raised them from a zombie state to a "living soul" state. And, at the same time, you have the Spirit of God being tabernacled in flesh by way of all the individuals who received the indwelling of God's spirit. Thus, this is God obtaining a tangible body of flesh and bone, which to God is like His physical resurrection. It's a mutually symbiotic arrangement. We get God's Spirit in us and His Spirit gets our flesh.

You should also be able to gather the connection Paul is making between the "last Adam" and the "Holy Ghost". He pretty much taught it outright that Adam manifests as both the 3rd member of the Trinity (when He transgresses, falls and dies and becomes a Ghost), and then upon Adam's redemption by way of "God's Christ" He becomes the 1st member of the Trinity in relation to the new creation that He stands at the Head of and rules and reigns over it during the 7th Day millennium.

Thus, the point Paul is clearly making here to me is that Adam represents the other two personages of the Trinity that are in the beginning and ending of a cycle of creation. Much of Messianic prophecy pertains to the advents of the Holy Ghost and Father as well as to Jesus as the Son. People make things VERY difficult for themselves when they try to cram all Messianic prophecy to apply to the single personage of Jesus.

For example, the distinct advents of the personages of the Trinity are spoken of by Isaiah as the "Stem" (Son), "Rod" (Holy Ghost) and "Branch" (Father). See Isaiah 11:1. The suffering and marred member of the Trinity who transgresses and dies both physically and spiritually is Adam. He is the "rod" that gets broken. (Isaiah 14:29) He is the "stumblingblock" that people mock and ridicule because of his transgression, yet they know not who he truly was and deny Him (the Holy Ghost, which is unpardonable). But, God's Christ (Son of Man) shall revive Adam's spirit and heal him physically and spiritually despite the iniquity of his covetousness. (Isaiah 57:14-18)

And, keep in mind, Adam is a flesh and bone being, which means we are talking about a collective body and not just the body of an individual. This collective of individual members functioning as a distinct society is why Adam's lifespan is more in keeping with the lifespan of a civilization. This is because Adam is a civilization quickened by the Spirit of God as "living souls". Adam is the Golden Age society we are on the cusp of experiencing in the Millennium once Son of Man redeems Him from His current fallen state.

Also, you should know, His fall was recent. The Creation narrative taken as a blueprint and master schedule puts Adam's first advent on Day 6, which is the 6th millennium, when he is given his garden paradise and is given dominion as a king. But, he transgresses and is driven out into the wilderness and suffers death but then the Son of Man comes and redeems Adam back to health and puts him back upon his throne for the balance of his near 1,000 year lifespan, which is the Millennium on Day 7.

Adam as the Holy Ghost is redeemed by way of the Son of God who now comes in the capacity of God's Christ as Son of Man and they enter into union and together they become the advent of the Father. See Isaiah 44:6.

I'll answer your other comments separately.

Pegg said:

But that is not what happened to the corpses that were thrown out of the graves during the earthquake. Jesus is supposed to be the first of those who recieve this spiritual resurrection....and the physical resurrection is not supposed to happen until judgement day after Christ is enthroned in his heavenly kingdom....that didnt happen on that day.

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The resurrection Jesus brought in his day was a spiritual resurrection for individuals. This was demonstrated when he laid hands upon his disciples and gave them the "breath of life" as indicated when it said he breathed on them. This was the same thing that happened to Adam that made of him a living soul, only Adam's level of glory was fully exalted with a fullness of the Father's glory.

All the talk about the "earthquake" and "graves opening" sounded physical but it was actually in reference to what was happening on the spiritual level. The "earth quake" was all of the commotion of people talking about what was going on and what it all meant. "Was Jesus really the Son of God, our Messiah? Or, was Jesus just yet another deluded fool among the many who claimed to be Messiah?"

It was out of this kind of an "earthquake" that the graves (zombies) yielded up their dead, meaning that those who received the "breath of life" by way of believing in Jesus Christ as the Messiah and receiving of the laying on of hands by those in authority to administer in such, were now living souls. They rose from the dead in spiritual terms, not actual physical corpses crawling up out of the cracked and broken rocks and seams of our planet earth's ground.

And, they were resurrected at the "fish" level of glory, so they were yet well beneath the higher levels of spiritual resurrection that would come later on in the grand design of things when evolution from "fish" of Day 5 progressed to "creeping things" and then eventually to "man", which is the very likeness of God, on Day 6.

What also took place is the flesh and bone body of Christ at the "fish" level of glory was resurrected. From this perspective it was a physical resurrection of Christ receiving a flesh and bone tabernacle to dwell in. This is manifested in the appearance of Jesus to the disciples when he said "see me and handle me, for a spirit (alone) hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have". The Lord truly had physically risen as Christ, but as a flesh and bone being.

What did he do when among them to prove he wasn't just a spirit (alone)? He ate "fish". That means that his flesh and bone body was composed of those individuals spiritually resurrected at the "fish" level of glory. In short, the disciples came to recognize that they themselves were members of the physical flesh and bone body of their resurrected Lord.

This is why in mythology you will see depictions of "fish" gods that are wearing a fish suit. This is also why the pope wears a symbol of Pisces that I call his "fish hat". They are the "fish"-men created on Day 5.

Hopefully this will help you to get greater clarity on how "life" actually works.

Pegg said:

i wont dismiss you, but i would still like to know where these ideas come from. What books of the bible are you using...or are you using the apochrypha?

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I am a student of all sacred texts I can get my hands on. I have digested most all major texts of all religions that appear to me to have divine origins. I am the least bit interested in vomit, so to speak, so I avoid religions that are man-made. I also watch carefully for when men usurp and corrupt the original purity and cloud things with the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

Pegg said:

what do you mean by the spirit 'indwelling' in a person? i've heard of this before and I dont believe everyone is born again....that is not a choice that we can individually make, but it is at Gods choosing.

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It is correct that not everyone is born again. They remain as zombies or are said to be asleep. Spiritual death is also likened to a deep sleep.

Such dead or sleeping souls are not children of God, which means they are NOT brothers and sisters in spirit to those who are such. The prevalent notion that everyone is a child of God is false. The only people who are children of God are people that have been spiritually born again of God's Spirit, which means that God's Spirit has taken up an abode in them as a tabernacle or temple for the Spirit of God. Put another way, the truth lives in them to at least some level of glory.

Pegg said:

So there is nothing wrong if a person is not born again....most people will not be born again because God does not need all of mankind in heaven with him. We are created for the earth and this is where we will be staying.

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Everyone stays on this planet, unless of course someone gets aboard a spaceship and rockets themselves off into oblivion. The "heavens" and the "earth" are here on our planet and are nowhere else to be found. Be careful not to get too caught up in metaphor taking its appearance literally instead of fully decoding what it actually pertains to in simple, practical reality.

Being a host of heaven simply means you have been granted authority to govern. Put another way, you become a light placed in the firmament above to shine upon those beneath that you have responsibility toward. For example, all validly ordained government officials are heavenly hosts. All validly ordained priests are heavenly hosts, etc.

There is no mystery to understand about heaven beyond this, other than just knowing the particular details of what the correct order of things should be when all things are set in their proper order for God's government to obtain the victory and bring all other worldly governments into righteous subjection to it so that the liberty to keep God's Law will be completely safeguarded. IOW, the "new Moses" prevails against Pharaoh.

There will be a limited number of individuals who shall fulfill heavenly stations of authority and so the seats in heaven are limited. For example, politically speaking, there are only 536 seats of authority in Congress. There's only one seat for the President. And, religiously speaking, there are only 12 seats for the quorum of 12 apostles. There shall only be 144,000 high priests anointed with a special mission to preach the Father's Kingdom in all the world. Heaven's seats are limited in number.

But, there won't be a limited number of people who can receive "life" by way of basking in the light the hosts of heaven that shine down upon the people. The Father greatly desires as many as possibly can be reached and awakened to come forth. There is no quota. The doors of salvation and Eternal Life are open unto all to whatever degree they can qualify for.

The reason most people won't be "born again" at the level of glory of the fulness of the Father is because they shall take the Father and His Law and Kingdom to be foolishness and they shall prefer to hold to the precepts of men.

Pegg said:

i really dont think that is what Jesus had in mind when he said 'you are from your father the devil'

its a simple case of a persons heart condition. A good hearted person will have room for God, a bad hearted person will reject God. Gods servants were all chosen because they were good hearted and faithful... but the wicked are those who reject God...they have become like the devils children.

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You simply repeated the same process as I stated except you left out the extra information about how the spiritual behavior here manifests in your physical resurrection in your "world to come".

In the case of what Jesus said to the Pharisee and Sadducee leaders with the cursed lineage bearing Cain's seed, he was looking in the reverse direction. Since he was dealing with people in Cain's flesh here, he automatically knew that in their previous "world" when their spirit was born that the condition of their hearts was to follow Lucifer. That "falling back unto Perdition" in their first estate is what got them in Cain's flesh in this world.

Thus, Jesus told them that the father of their spirit (in their first estate) was the devil. And, he told them that this is why they cannot understand the truths he was teaching them. Cain's flesh/lineage is cursed to be wholly incapable of receiving spiritual life (spiritual resurrection). No matter how much they may try, the firmware is not in them in order to do so. It cannot happen, just as Jesus said.

But, as I said before, if they accepted the truth of this and humbled themselves and received baptism for the remission of sins that their name would then be written in the Lamb's Book of Life so that when the whole new Creation is organized their name would be eligible to be sealed into a family/lineage that was free of Cain's physical seed.

Then, just as the ordinance of baptism depicts, through the process of death, burial and resurrection, they would come forth in their "world to come" in a tabernacle of a lineage that qualifies for "life" and they would be able to be spiritually resurrected as well, at some level at least.

Pegg said:

not all tabernacles will be born again either.

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Well, in some respects this is true, but you need to qualify what scope of time you are talking about and what type of being born again you are talking about.

This is part of the trouble why people continue to go in endless circles never reaching agreement is because they don't fully qualify what they are saying such that their meaning is unambiguous.

If someone here has what they call a "born again" experience, much like the Christians, where a new spiritual birth takes place, then that person obtains a spiritual resurrection or birth. At that point their eternal soul that shall survive the death of their physical body is born. In this way, spiritual resurrection makes you an immortal person.

If this spiritual birth doesn't take place then there is no vehicle to preserve you and your identity into the "world to come". These people cease to exist upon their death and only have a semblance of existence to the extent that they are remembered by those who are yet living.

Some would call it magic, but it is possible that those who are living can bring their deceased predecessors into remembrance and perform rituals (ordinances) on their behalf via proxy that will effectively preserve their souls by giving them a vehicle for immortality they otherwise would have totally missed out on.

Peter was familiar with this process when he made the comment "why else are they baptized for the dead if the dead rise not?" The work of the Saints is to redeem both the living and the dead so that because of Jesus Christ and His Gospel all mankind shall attain to immortality so that they can continue on from "world" to "world" in pursuit of attaining Eternal Life.

It isn't a coincidence that Adam is given the assignment to "name" all of the "creatures". He stands as the Alpha/Omega at the juncture point between worlds. He stands at the end of the old and judges all souls and assigns them their position and glory in the new creation that he organizes.

The process of Adam giving all "creatures" a "new name" is so that they are fore-ordained to their level of glory they have merited in the creation to follow. Those whose names are not written in the "Book of Life" are sealed to only come forth in Cain's cursed posterity and thus are denied "life" in their "world to come". They receive the physical resurrection unto spiritual death, a.k.a. the "second death".

Pegg said:

im really sorry, but i dont even know where to begin

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You could start by getting confirmation if you actually understand what I presented. It would be unfortunate if you misunderstood me and became confused by something I didn't intend to communicate.

Pegg said:

some are expecting a physical fulfillment, but the reality may be a spiritual fulfillment.

Does God really need to rule mankind from the earth? Can he not do so from heaven?

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He can rule from heaven, if He so pleased. But its not a matter of what He can do, it's a matter of what He will do:


There's more but I'll stop there. If you are true to the scriptures, as JW's claim, it's pretty obvious He will rule from earthly Jerusalem, not from heaven. If you don't reply, I have to assume you placed me on your ignore list or are simply choosing to ignore my posts which is certainly your prerogative. However, I'm sure you realize I have a responsibility to defend the truth and will continue to do so.

gnostic said:

Ignoring the gospel of John, because it doesn't have this part, so my focus for this thread will be that of the other 3 gospels (Matthew, Mark & Luke).

So let me set the scene: Jesus' death.

According to all 3 gospels, Jesus was dying on the cross, so the (whole) land was cover in darkness, from noon to 3 in the afternoon (total solar eclipse, perhaps?). Jesus spoke his last words. And then at the moment Jesus was dead, the curtain in the temple was torn, from top to bottom according to Mark and Matthew.

That's what all 3 had in common (again, ignoring John, because John's doesn't mention any of these).

Now what really interested me is this part, which I'll now quote from Matthew's which others didn't mention at all (in red):



The next verse (54) confirmed that there was an earthquake. Mark and Luke left out the earthquake, most likely because Matthew invented the whole earthquake bit. Even John's make no reference to a quake.

Did the earthquake occur?

But that's not the most important question.

The part about rock splitting, the tombs of "many holy people" opened up, and they rose out of their tombs, in Jerusalem - pretty much alive - is the part that I really want to explore.

If such a thing happened, then it would cause panic to know that people who should be dead are alive. And more than just Matthew (or his gospel) would mention it. But pretty much the other gospels and the SUPPOSED (independent) WITNESSES are silent about such event occurring.

Did Matthew (or whoever wrote this gospel) fabricated the risen holy people seen by many people in the holy city (ie Jerusalem)? Explain, please.

Why didn't the other gospels say anything about it?

Do you believe it occur?

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I believe it did occur. There were several resurrections in the Bible where people came back to life. I believe they all died again. Christ is the only one who was raised immortal, the rest of us won't be until his 2nd Coming.

james2ko said:

He can rule from heaven, if He so pleased. But its not a matter of what He can do, it's a matter of what He will do:
...
He will rule from earthly Jerusalem, not from heaven.

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Does it have to be mutually exclusive?

Who's to say that when He rules in Zion personally that He has to leave heaven to do so?

As I understand it, being a host of heaven simply means that you have legitimate authority and responsibility to rule and reign.

Being in a position of legitimate authority is being in heaven.

javajo said:

I believe it did occur. There were several resurrections in the Bible where people came back to life. I believe they all died again. Christ is the only one who was raised immortal, the rest of us won't be until his 2nd Coming.

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You are talking about the many cases of physical resuscitation. There is no great mystery in those things as such happens fairly commonly. In fact, so commonly that you had watches in cemeteries for "bell ringers" so that a person buried believed to be dead could ring the bell and be exhumed before they suffocated. So, let's not get too carried away and call such instances a resurrection.

It is also correct that you distinguish a difference between what Jesus experienced and what those other experiences were. When Jesus resurrected he did so as a being of flesh and bone. I touched upon this in an earlier thread and I encourage you to find it and look into it more. It talks about "fish" and how he ate "fish".

kylixguru said:

Does it have to be mutually exclusive?

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1 If you can literally prove from scripture it isn't, without using symbolic and or speculative theories, I'll take a second look.

kylixguru said:

Who's to say that when He rules in Zion personally that He has to leave heaven to do so? As I understand it, being a host of heaven simply means that you have legitimate authority and responsibility to rule and reign. Being in a position of legitimate authority is being in heaven.

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2. The bible states He will descend to, dwell, and rule from earth. Anything else is speculative/symbolic conjecture.

james2ko said:

1 If you can literally prove from scripture it isn't, without using symbolic and or speculative theories, I'll take a second look.

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I don't speculate. I only use explicit metaphors the Bible itself provides.

james2ko said:

2. The bible states He will descend to, dwell, and rule from earth. Anything else is speculative/symbolic conjecture.

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I didn't challenge the fact that Jesus shall descend to, dwell upon in the flesh, and rule from our physical planet.

What I did do is give you an opportunity to replace the symbol "heaven" you seem willing to make speculative use of and attempt to open your eyes to what the actual literal reality is behind that symbol.

kylixguru said:

You simply repeated the same process as I stated except you left out the extra information about how the spiritual behavior here manifests in your physical resurrection in your "world to come".

In the case of what Jesus said to the Pharisee and Sadducee leaders with the cursed lineage bearing Cain's seed, he was looking in the reverse direction. Since he was dealing with people in Cain's flesh here,

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I've never seen anything in the bible about cains cursed descendents.

in fact, the bible reveals that none of Cains descendents survived the flood incident. The only Family to survive the flood was Noah and his 3 sons...none of which came from Cains family line.


So i dont know where this information comes from, but its not from the bible.

kylixguru said:

Cain's flesh/lineage is cursed to be wholly incapable of receiving spiritual life (spiritual resurrection). No matter how much they may try, the firmware is not in them in order to do so. It cannot happen, just as Jesus said.

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No, every person alive today are from Noahs family line. We are all descendents of either Shem, Ham or Japheth. Seth is the son of Adam to whom this family line has come....so cain and his descendents are long gone.

kylixguru said:

Then, just as the ordinance of baptism depicts, through the process of death, burial and resurrection, they would come forth in their "world to come" in a tabernacle of a lineage that qualifies for "life" and they would be able to be spiritually resurrected as well, at some level at least.

Well, in some respects this is true, but you need to qualify what scope of time you are talking about and what type of being born again you are talking about.

This is part of the trouble why people continue to go in endless circles never reaching agreement is because they don't fully qualify what they are saying such that their meaning is unambiguous.

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i dont understand any of this.... where does this information come from???

kylixguru said:

If someone here has what they call a "born again" experience, much like the Christians, where a new spiritual birth takes place, then that person obtains a spiritual resurrection or birth. At that point their eternal soul that shall survive the death of their physical body is born. In this way, spiritual resurrection makes you an immortal person.

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and the scriptures reveal that only a very small number from mankind will receive immortal spiritual life.
Revelation 14:1-20 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads...3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth

Revelation 7:3 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand

kylixguru said:

If this spiritual birth doesn't take place then there is no vehicle to preserve you and your identity into the "world to come". These people cease to exist upon their death and only have a semblance of existence to the extent that they are remembered by those who are yet living.

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according to Jesus, even the unrighteous ones will be restored to life in the world to come
"Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” John 5:28, 29

“there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”—Ac 24:15.

So there is no spiritual birth needed to be resurrected back to life on earth...they will have the opportunity then of living forever on earth.

kylixguru said:

It isn't a coincidence that Adam is given the assignment to "name" all of the "creatures". He stands as the Alpha/Omega at the juncture point between worlds. He stands at the end of the old and judges all souls and assigns them their position and glory in the new creation that he organizes.

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according to Genesis, Adam no longer exists.... he returned to dust

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Pegg said:

I've never seen anything in the bible about cains cursed descendents.

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You have never heard of the forbidden fruit (seed)?
You have never heard of the seed of the Serpent that causes death?
You understand that the Serpent's seed would be preserved in all ages?
Thus, the Serpent's seed must survive the flood in the days of Noah.
Noah's son Ham married a wife called Egyptus, which means forbidden.
Ham's son from Egyptus was named Canaan, progenitor of the Canaanites.
He was cursed but there is no record of any individual evil act he did himself.
His curse was simply for the fact that his mother was of forbidden seed.
Abraham went to great lengths to make sure Isaac didn't marry a Canaanite.
Esau sorely grieved his parents for marrying Canaanite wives.
The Lord intervened in a drastic way such that Esau lost the birthright.
The Abrahamic birthright could not be mixed with the lineage of Esau's wives.
The Lord slew Judah's eldest son Er because he was "wicked" in the eyes of the Lord.
There is no mention whatever of any wickedness of Er, except have forbidden blood.
The Lord intervened in a drastic way such that Judah would have Pharez and Zarah.
The Savior could not come through the lineage of Judah's Canaanite wife.

Pegg said:

in fact, the bible reveals that none of Cains descendents survived the flood incident. The only Family to survive the flood was Noah and his 3 sons...none of which came from Cains family line.

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Ham's wife Egyptus had the seed of Cain.
Thus, Cain's seed was preserved through Ham's son Canaan.
Thus, the Word of God to the Serpent would not become void.

Pegg said:

So i dont know where this information comes from, but its not from the bible.

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As I see it, it is a red flashing neon light beaming from the Bible begging to be noticed.

Pegg said:

No, every person alive today are from Noahs family line. We are all descendents of either Shem, Ham or Japheth. Seth is the son of Adam to whom this family line has come....so cain and his descendents are long gone.

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If that were so, the Word of God to the Serpent would be void.

Pegg said:

i dont understand any of this.... where does this information come from???

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The Bible.

Pegg said:

and the scriptures reveal that only a very small number from mankind will receive immortal spiritual life.

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Are you talking about Eternal Life here or something else?
As I understand immortality, Christ's gospel provides immortality to all.

Pegg said:

according to Jesus, even the unrighteous ones will be restored to life in the world to come
"Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” John 5:28, 29

“there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”—Ac 24:15.

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You still don't understand what I said earlier.
All are given immortality through the atonement of Jesus Christ and His Gospel.
This means that whether you were righteous or wicked that you shall be physically resurrected in the "world to come".
But, some are physically resurrected unto spiritual death, which is the second death.
That's why you won't really be able to make complete sense of things unless you take care and properly distinguish between physical and spiritual resurrection.

Pegg said:

So there is no spiritual birth needed to be resurrected back to life on earth...they will have the opportunity then of living forever on earth.

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I didn't say that spiritual birth was needed to receive a future physical resurrection.
The atonement of Jesus Christ makes it possible for everyone to be physically resurrected.

Pegg said:

according to Genesis, Adam no longer exists.... he returned to dust

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No wonder you don't know very much of what I'm talking about.
You apparently know very little about Adam and his significance.

Who do you think Jesus was praying to as His Father?

kylixguru said:

You have never heard of the forbidden fruit (seed)?

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'seed' in the scriptures refers to offspring. The forbidden fruit refers to the tree from which the couple were told not the eat. It has nothing to do with their offspring/seed.

kylixguru said:

You have never heard of the seed of the Serpent that causes death?

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according to Jesus, the one who is the original cause of death is not the offspring of Adam and Eve, but Satan the Devil
John 8:44 YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, ...That one was a manslayer when he began, ... he is a liar and the father of [the lie].

kylixguru said:

You understand that the Serpent's seed would be preserved in all ages?

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not through all ages...the serpents seed will not be preserved during the time of the Messiahs messianic rule
“Evildoers themselves will be cut off . . . But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.” (Psalm 37:9-11

kylixguru said:

Are you talking about Eternal Life here or something else?
As I understand immortality, Christ's gospel provides immortality to all.

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according to the scriptures, immortality is reserved only for those who have been granted immortality by God....Jesus and his selected brothers.

There are two different hopes in the bible. A small number (little flock) are to enter into the heavenly kingdom...they must be resurrected into spirits.
1Peter 1:3 for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for YOU, 5 who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time

But there is also the earthly resurrection of mankind (other sheep)...these ones will be given new bodies of flesh to reside on earth.
Matthew 5:5 “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth

kylixguru said:

You still don't understand what I said earlier.
All are given immortality through the atonement of Jesus Christ and His Gospel.
This means that whether you were righteous or wicked that you shall be physically resurrected in the "world to come".
But, some are physically resurrected unto spiritual death, which is the second death.
That's why you won't really be able to make complete sense of things unless you take care and properly distinguish between physical and spiritual resurrection.

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what scriptures do you use for this idea?

Pegg said:

'seed' in the scriptures refers to offspring. The forbidden fruit refers to the tree from which the couple were told not the eat. It has nothing to do with their offspring/seed.

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Fruit contains seed. Partaking of fruit is partaking of seed. A tree is a lineage that bears a certain kind of seed. Adam and Eve were forbidden to receive into their bodies of flesh and bone those who had within them forbidden seed from the forbidden fruit of the forbidden tree. It has everything to do with their offspring/seed.

Pegg said:

according to Jesus, the one who is the original cause of death is not the offspring of Adam and Eve, but Satan the Devil
John 8:44 YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, ...That one was a manslayer when he began, ... he is a liar and the father of [the lie].

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Saying "you are from" is speaking of the primal origins of the time when their spirit was born. Jesus was referring to when they were spiritually procreated by the Devil in their first estate, which is why they came fourth in their second estate in Cain's cursed lineage.

Pegg said:

not through all ages...the serpents seed will not be preserved during the time of the Messiahs messianic rule
“Evildoers themselves will be cut off . . . But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.” (Psalm 37:9-11

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You are assuming that being "cut off" pertains only to physical life and that there is an end made to physical lineage. But, in actuality, it pertains to spiritual life only. Therefore, there are yet people present physically on the planet who are "cut off" in that they remain spiritually dead.

What this is talking about is that toward the end of Day 6, which is the 6th Millennium (just now ending), that Adam and Eve come forth and receive their "breath of life" and are given a paradise garden, etc. Adam and Eve are flesh and bone bodies, so what this means is that there will be a distinct group of people to which is given the fulness of the Gospel of the Father and the scepter to establish the Kingdom.

Adam was given dominion and he was a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. His Bride Eve is the Church, who was bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh, which means their flesh and bone bodies shared members. But, Eve was beguiled by the Serpent to take within her body individuals/members that were of the forbidden seed/fruit/lineage. Then, Eve went to Adam and got him to receive individuals/members of the forbidden fruit within his flesh and bone body as well. Because of this, they were driven out of their garden paradise and they were cut off from God and thereby suffered spiritual death.

A necessary part of Adam and Eve's redemption so that Adam can regain his throne from Cain who has taken advantage of the situation and usurped it, is they will need to cleanse and sanctify their flesh and bone bodies of the members who should not have been taken into their bodies to start with. There will also be members in their bodies who aren't of the forbidden fruit but who have been overcome by the spirit of Lucifer and who are in rebellion that also must be purged from their bodies.

So, the time comes when all those who are members of record within the societal bodies of Adam and Eve shall be set in order. In the case of those members in their bodies who are of the forbidden seed, they shall have all of their ordinances cancelled out with the only exception being water baptism. This means that the ordinance of spiritual resurrection they thought they received legitimately shall be nullified.

Also, all of the work Adam and Eve started to do to "name" (judge) the "creatures" (people of the earth) shall have to be nullified and they will need to start over again after they are redeemed. Of course all of the genealogical data they have assembled in order to undertake this great work shall remain valid so it will just be a matter of redoing all of the necessary ordinances to carry out this task.

This great work to totally organize (fore-ordain) the new family (the new Creation) will take Adam and Eve most of the rest of their lives and will be their primary concern during the Millennium as they rule and reign. This shall be performed by individuals who are members of Adam's body of flesh and bone who are prophets, seers and revelators who have the ability to know everything pertinent about all the people who are being "named". They shall assign them to the various levels of glory, or no glory at all, and seal it upon them for the new Creation.

This labor involves gathering all of the data necessary to judge every single person who has lived upon the planet during the past 6000 years and to organize them all into various nations, kingdoms, tribes, families, etc. Now, bear in mind, when an individual is named they are more or less given the bounds or measure of their creation for that new cycle. Most of the finer details are worked out by the individual themselves as things play out and unfold, just as long as they only function within the bounds prescribed by their "new name".

Pegg said:

according to the scriptures, immortality is reserved only for those who have been granted immortality by God....Jesus and his selected brothers.

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Perhaps you would need to better define what you mean by immortality because I do not agree with that. It seems to me your conception of immortality is very different from mine.

As I understand it immortality pertains to bodies of flesh and bone. If you pluck out an "eye" (e.g. a member of that body who is a seer dies) then you just call and appoint a new member who is qualified and capable of continuing that function and the body grows a new "eye" in place of the old. If an "arm" gets chopped off, you reorganize members to reconstitute a new "arm" for that body.

This is why in old myths and legends you see heros doing battle with immortal beings who regenerate severed limbs and who can even have a head chopped off and grow a new one. This is because we are dealing with beings of flesh and bone and the myths and legends are written on that level of understanding.

Our immortality as an individual is accomplished when we become a member of a body of flesh and bone. That greater spiritual body then becomes a vehicle for us to be preserved such that when our physical body ages and dies, as they always shall, our identity, inheritance, etc. is all preserved and organized into the next opportunity to receive a new physical tabernacle in the creation cycle to follow.

This is why if you join the body of flesh and bone of Cain/Lucifer by way of taking upon yourself the delusions and beguiling of the Serpent while you are in your first estate or angelic state that your ability to obtain a physical tabernacle in the "world to come" must be through the physical seed of Cain.

Spiritual families in the first estate or angelic realm (which is here on planet earth) when spirits are procreated and raised are also grouped together as physical families when the next round of physical resurrections are taking place.

Since it appears you are a member of the Jehovah's Witness religion, you have accepted spiritual birth by way of whatever spirit is governing that organization. You are a member of that body of flesh and bone. Therefore, you are cultivating within yourself its spirit and that spirit shall govern over your level of glory in the world to come.

If your religion is very pure and correct in its doctrinal beliefs and it has fostered behaviors and attitudes that have integrity to the Father's plan, then when the Father (Adam) is sealing together His family (during the Millennium) there will be a special physical lineage that taps into or branches out of the "tree of life" at a very pure and undefiled level and your tribe or branch will have its designated plot of ground on the planet for a certain period of time for all those members of the Jehovah's Witness spiritual family to reap their rewards in the flesh.

If your religion is a jumbled up concoction that is largely based upon man's reasoning that has faltered and stumbled and reworked itself trying to be a good religion but the spirit governing it doesn't have all that great of integrity to the Father's plan, then the spiritual family of Jehovah's Witnesses won't be worthy of a tap into or branch out of the "tree of life" at an especially pure level.

Therefore, it could end up as a grouping of souls like what Esau produced in his posterity or like Noah's son Japeth produced, who was a good son but who didn't carry the birthright and whose posterity was more on the sidelines. It would be God's way of saying "Thanks, but no thanks".

Pegg said:

There are two different hopes in the bible. A small number (little flock) are to enter into the heavenly kingdom...they must be resurrected into spirits.
1Peter 1:3 for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for YOU, 5 who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time

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Being resurrected into spirits doesn't mean that they yield up their physical bodies. It simply means that they pass from the zombie state to a state of being spiritually quickened by way of receiving the "breath of life". In particular, what you are referring to is they must become members of the bodies of flesh and bone of Adam and Eve in order to become a member of the Kingdom of God during the Millennium.

Adam redeemed by way of attaining union with Son of Man (God's Christ) is who sits upon the throne as Christ during the Millennium as a resurrected body of flesh and bone. Therefore, it stands to reason that all individuals who wish to be a part of this Kingdom should have their individual spiritual quickening that brings them into Adam and Eve's bodies as a member. Sorry if that's redundant, but it bears repeating.

This is why Jesus taught Nicodemus that unless you are born again of both water and of the spirit that you cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Being born of the spirit is the process by which you attain to your resurrected and quickened state that enables you to be a part of the Kingdom of God. You literally become a member of God's body of flesh and bone that the rest of the world gets to live in the presence of.

Pegg said:

But there is also the earthly resurrection of mankind (other sheep)...these ones will be given new bodies of flesh to reside on earth.
Matthew 5:5 “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth

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Everything spoken of in the Bible pertains to things that all play out right here on our home planet. You are not going to get carted off to some other place in the galaxy or universe. The heaven you speak of exists here on this planet just as the earth you speak of exists here on this planet.

It always baffles me how and why people invent such mysterious and impractical beliefs that they cannot explain in simple and practical terms, yet they wield them in conversation as if they are absolute truths. Perhaps I'm missing something, but how about you tell me in practical terms exactly how what you claim is going to come about.

In what manner and by what process will all these new bodies be dispensed?

Pegg said:

what scriptures do you use for this idea?

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1 Corinthians 15:22 says "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

I explained in earlier posts how Adam redeemed as the Father performs all of the work on behalf of all "creatures" to bring them to remembrance and to give to them a "new name" so that they will have a place of habitation in the new Creation He organizes. Thus, Adam is the Alpha/Omega who stands at the end of the old creation to judge it and in the process of that organize the new creation and stand as its grand patriarchal head.

kylixguru said:

I don't speculate.

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1. And you have also not demonstrated anything from scripture that Christ will rule from heaven and earth, without using speculative metaphors.

kylixguru said:

I only use explicit metaphors the Bible itself provides.

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2. Metaphors are prone to a human's extensive imagination. They are inexact, fuzzy and open to a subjective universe of vague interpretations. In scripture, metaphors can usually be spotted and interpreted immediately. For instance, "I am the good shepherd and I lay down my life for my sheep; you are the salt of the earth; you are the light of the world. Some religionists take these simple metaphors and start connecting them to other areas of scripture and assign meanings and interpretations that were never intended.

kylixguru said:

I didn't challenge the fact that Jesus shall descend to, dwell upon in the flesh, and rule from our physical planet. What I did do is give you an opportunity to replace the symbol "heaven" you seem willing to make speculative use of and attempt to open your eyes to what the actual literal reality is behind that symbol.

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3. I likewise am giving you an opportunity to replace metaphor you seem willing to make speculative use of and attempt to open your eyes to the literal reality.

james2ko said:

1. And you have also not demonstrated anything from scripture that Christ will rule from heaven and earth, without using speculative metaphors.

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It's still your turn. I agreed with you about ruling on and from planet earth and then I challenged you to define in practical terms without the symbolic use of the term "heavens" what it actually means. In other words, I am exposing you as the one who is actually making use of an undefined metaphor called "heavens".

I have told you in plain and literal terms what "heavens" actually means without the use of symbolism of any kind, including the ambiguous and undefined term "heavens" itself. Now its your turn. Tell me exactly what is meant by "heavens" and exactly what it entails to be in heaven and do not use any symbols whatever, except of course plain and practical language a common and non-religious person can understand. If and when you can do that, then you can point the finger at me and talk trash about using symbols instead of raw and literal truth.

james2ko said:

2. Metaphors are prone to a human's extensive imagination. They are inexact, fuzzy and open to a subjective universe of vague interpretations. In scripture, metaphors can usually be spotted and interpreted immediately. For instance, "I am the good shepherd and I lay down my life for my sheep; you are the salt of the earth; you are the light of the world. Some religionists take these simple metaphors and start connecting them to other areas of scripture and assign meanings and interpretations that were never intended.

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So what's your point, other than making mine?
I don't invent my own speculative metaphors. I use only a metaphor the Bible itself defines. Then, I prove it out with additional witnesses that a metaphor has merit.

james2ko said:

3. I likewise am giving you an opportunity to replace metaphor you seem willing to make speculative use of and attempt to open your eyes to the literal reality.

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You did give me that opportunity and I already did that.
I said, being a host of heaven means having a legitimate role in governance.
That is something plain, practical and simple that any common person could understand. I am not hiding any meaning behind nebulous symbols that leaves the door open to speculation. So, now its your turn. What exactly are "heavens" in plain and practical terms a common person can understand if it doesn't mean what I have proposed?

Pegg said:

Can a physical body of flesh be caught away in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air? I ask you.

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You appear to be making reference to the time frame of the advent of the Son of Man.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 21:27
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

You appear to me to be assuming that those participating in this cannot have a physical body in order to do so. As best as I can tell, there is no indication that such requirement exists. And, if you examine the text to see how much it all makes sense together in a whole if what you propose is true, you are left asking the question:

If the people participating in this no longer have any physical component to their being, how would anyone standing on the ground and looking into the sky be able to see them?

I suggest that when you can fully decipher what is actually being said here in those passages that it will resolve down to something very clear and easy to understand that won't have any awkwardness to it and that doesn't require billion dollar technology to put holograms of light up in the sky for the whole world to see at the same time.

There is a particular dialect that scripture is written in that I call the seer's tongue. It is the language of God that is independent of the language of man. Some people also call it the Adamic tongue. Whether the Bible is read in Hebrew, Greek or English, the seer's tongue is still there to be read, provided the translations into other languages of man don't meddle too much with things.

The trouble you seem to be having is because your interpretation is without proper regard for the seer's tongue. This is just a polite way of suggesting you consider the possibility that your religion was conceived by men blind to the things of God because there have been no seers involved in its creation.

As I read these passages about the Son of Man I take into consideration that the heavens are not the actual physical space above us we call the sky where literal clouds form. When the heavens are referred to it is a reference to the firmaments brought forth in the creation account where the lights are placed to shed light to the earth below. If you don't understand the Creation account you won't be able to make sense of anything else you read in all the scriptures.

The lights spoken of in the creation account are not the actual physical objects we see literally in the sky from way out in space that were created. For example, in Day 4 we have the creation of what people think was our sun, but in fact it really pertained to the creation of the Son, who was Jesus Christ. It isn't a coincidence that Jesus came at the very tail end of the 4th Millennium, which pertains to Day 4. The creation account wasn't telling us when the star we have named Sol that is the center of our heliosphere was created. It was simply telling us when the new Son of God would be born within that cycle of creation.

So, when you take the creation account as the creation of something that pertains entirely to the geopolitical domain of man, the use of the term "heavens" is talking about the realm of governance, whether it be political, spiritual, economic, etc. The "lights" in the "heavens" are people in seats of power.

So, we learn something interesting about the circumstances when the Son of Man has his advent. If there are clouds in the heavens we can understand that light is being obstructed by them and that the possibility of inclement weather is increased. This indicates that there is a significant amount of apostasy in the realms of governance that he is coming to address and to hopefully set in order, though it doesn't exactly say what the outcome shall be.

Also, it doesn't specify that the people both see and recognize the Son of Man when he comes. In fact, Jesus said that they won't recognize him.

Matthew 17:12
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

There is a parallel between the Elias/Elijah role of John the Baptist to come in the time of darkness and apostasy of the current Jewish leaders of that day to address their evils in order for them to possibly repent and make themselves ready for the Messiah (King-Priest) that he shall anoint.

This is saying that when Jesus returns in glory in the capacity of the Son of Man that it too shall be a time of great darkness and apostasy in the realms of governance. Jesus coming in glory as the Son of Man in the office and authority of Elias/Elijah to prepare the way for anointing the Father as King of the Kingdom is what is going to happen in the latter days.

This time however it shall be the Gentiles that have polluted themselves and mocked God to be under such a condition of darkness and apostasy. And, just like before when God rejected the Jews (for rejecting Him) and turned his attention to the Gentiles to give them an opportunity to manifest the Kingdom, now God shall reject the Gentiles because they rejected His Kingdom and polluted it with darkness.

Thus, His coming shall be as if a thief in the night, not withstanding that He comes in glory. People shall see Him, but they won't recognize Him for who and what He actually is. This is because the Gentiles shall be so boxed in with false tradition and be overcome by false and seducing spirits that they will fight against and beat the Father's servants when He sends them to bring in the "meat" of the Kingdom. (See Luke 12)

It is at this time that the Son of Man acting in the Elias/Elijah mantle of authority shall pronounce judgment upon the Gentiles just as John the Baptist pronounced judgment upon the Jews. The Jews rejected their Messiah, who was the Son, because they first had rejected the Elias/Elijah who came to set in order their apostasy so that they could celebrate the advent of their rightful King and High Priest.

So, the Gentiles shall become high-minded and corrupted and polluted just as the Jews of old were. Jesus shall return to them in glory to call them to repentance in the mantle of authority of Elias/Elijah in order to prepare them for their King and High Priest who is the Father. But, even though the Gentiles were instructed in the Lord's Prayer to look for the coming of the Father and His Kingdom, the Gentiles shall reject the Son of Man because they won't recognize him, just as the Jews didn't recognize John the Baptist as Elias/Elijah.

Therefore, the Gentiles shall reject the Father just as the Jews rejected the Son.

kylixguru said:

Perhaps you would need to better define what you mean by immortality because I do not agree with that. It seems to me your conception of immortality is very different from mine.

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to be mortal means that we can die... but be immortal is to be like God who has no beginning or end...he cannot die.

So we are certainly not immortal. if we were, then we would not die.

kylixguru said:

This is why in old myths and legends you see heros doing battle with immortal beings who regenerate severed limbs and who can even have a head chopped off and grow a new one. This is because we are dealing with beings of flesh and bone and the myths and legends are written on that level of understanding.

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you shouldnt really base your reality on myths, should you? Why do you think we call them 'myths'

kylixguru said:

Since it appears you are a member of the Jehovah's Witness religion, you have accepted spiritual birth by way of whatever spirit is governing that organization. You are a member of that body of flesh and bone. Therefore, you are cultivating within yourself its spirit and that spirit shall govern over your level of glory in the world to come.

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we have very few spirit annointed members...im not one of them. The spirit that we are taught to cultivate in ourselves is the Holy spirit...Love/Joy/Peace/Long suffering/mildness/kindness/goodness and faith.

kylixguru said:

Being resurrected into spirits doesn't mean that they yield up their physical bodies. It simply means that they pass from the zombie state to a state of being spiritually quickened by way of receiving the "breath of life".

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if you are a living breathing person, you already have the breath of life...otherwise you'd be dead.

according to the scriptures humans cannot go to heaven with bodies of flesh and blood
1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”
John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.”
This is why the scriptures also tell spirit annointed christians that they must end their life course 'faithfully' in order to receive their prize of a heavenly resurrection..... they die to their physical bodies to be resurrected in a spirit body just as Jesus did.

kylixguru said:

In particular, what you are referring to is they must become members of the bodies of flesh and bone of Adam and Eve in order to become a member of the Kingdom of God during the Millennium.

Adam redeemed by way of attaining union with Son of Man

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I would like to see scriptures regarding this ... you've not used any scritpural proof for these strange ideas and i doubt you''ve got any from the bible to use. You still havn't told me where this information comes from. How can an honest discussion take place when you wont reveal your source?

im guessing your source is an apochryphal book...something that has not been inspired by God.

Pegg said:

to be mortal means that we can die... but be immortal is to be like God who has no beginning or end...he cannot die.

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God most certainly can, and must, die. And, God must do so on both the physical and the spiritual level.

NOTE: Please see post #62 and #64 for important clarification of the above statement.

What makes God exceptional is that in both cases God has the power to be resurrected both physically and spiritually.

Jesus Christ, the 2nd personage of the Trinity, died and He resurrected.
Jesus Christ also said that He was going to do what He observed His Father do.

What is a ghost? It is the essence that remains of a being who has died.

The Holy Ghost is the 3rd personage of the Trinity, who is a dead God.

The Father is the 1st personage of the Trinity, who is God resurrected.

You will never know the Father unless and until you understand His life, death and resurrection. In fact, the name Adam means "God the Father ordained unto death's double portion.

A = Aleph = The Head One
D = Daleth = Death
M = Mem = Ordained (with a context of double portion)

While Jesus died physically on the cross and was resurrected, Adam transgressed and died not just physically but spiritually as well, and became the Holy Ghost. But, Son of Man (Jehovah as God's Christ) received Michael-Adam into spiritual union and redeemed Him from the dead, both spiritually and physically. This is implied in Isaiah 44:6.

So, the Father actually represents the union of the previous creation cycle's Son and Holy Ghost with the Son being the Christ/Savior of the Holy Ghost.

Put another way:
Eloheim = Jehovah + Michael

So, when Jesus returns to rule and reign and judge everyone during the Millennium, it won't just be the second coming of Jesus, but it shall simultaneously be the second coming of Adam too.

Pegg said:

So we are certainly not immortal. if we were, then we would not die.

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You definitely do not understand immortality as I do. I already talked about immortality and how it works. You are welcome to open up a one on one discussion about it if you want to go into it more.

Pegg said:

you shouldnt really base your reality on myths, should you? Why do you think we call them 'myths'

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I didn't say I based my reality on old myths. I just brought up a side point that it wasn't an uncommon practice in ancient times to tell stories by making use of the flesh and bone depictions of societies as distinct beings. And, when those flesh and bone bodies are depicted, they exhibit the aspects of immortality also referred to in scripture.

Pegg said:

we have very few spirit annointed members...im not one of them. The spirit that we are taught to cultivate in ourselves is the Holy spirit...Love/Joy/Peace/Long suffering/mildness/kindness/goodness and faith.

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I would be very surprised if those allegedly spirit anointed members would exhibit patience, mildness, kindness, long suffering, etc. to members of your body that start to sincerely, yet very diligently, to question the core tenets of your religion.

The phase or period of time we are in right now is one in which there is vomit on all tables when even the priests and prophets sitting in valid seats of authority shall be overcome by strong drink (wine=money) and they shall stumble in judgment and there shall be vomit on all tables (only pre-digested pre-approved words allowed). See Isaiah 28:1-8.

When the Lord and Savior returns, there will not be a single organization who shall have a disposition to give him a warm welcome. They will take Him as a demon possessed fool just as the Jews considered Jesus to be.

In fact, if you look carefully enough, you can see that for a time at least that even John the Baptist and his disciples took Jesus to be a fraud and taunted and mocked him. See John 7:1-5.

This wasn't his family, this was the brotherhood surrounding the Elias/Elijah group headed by John the Baptist. Under Elijah and Elisha, this body of authority was referred to as the Sons of the Prophets. Therefore, they were referred to as "brethren". And, it is appropriate that Jesus would go to John the Baptist because it is the Elias/Elijah mantle of authority that anoints the kings and high priests to perform their duties. The Lord's Anointed Prophet has responsibility over the kings and the priests so John the Baptist actually had authority over Jesus in his role as a Messianic King-Priest.

Pegg said:

if you are a living breathing person, you already have the breath of life...otherwise you'd be dead.

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If you omit consideration that spiritual life can be distinct from physical life then that would be true. However, if you are of a disposition to receive the "words of life" you won't omit consideration of that aspect of our being.

Pegg said:

according to the scriptures humans cannot go to heaven with bodies of flesh and blood
1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”
John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.”
This is why the scriptures also tell spirit annointed christians that they must end their life course 'faithfully' in order to receive their prize of a heavenly resurrection..... they die to their physical bodies to be resurrected in a spirit body just as Jesus did.

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If you use a narrow interpretation and omit what you were omitting above, which is the "words of life", then you would feel the need to impose such a restraint.

Right now, even while living in a tabernacle of flesh and blood, I can experience spiritual birth and become quickened by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and by so doing qualify to be received into God's Kingdom here on earth. This is simply saying that only those who are quickened in this manner will be able to find the order of things in God's Kingdom joyous and harmonious.

Those who have not been quickened and spiritually resurrected will simply view the order of things in the Kingdom of God as foolishness and they will want no part of it.

Pegg said:

I would like to see scriptures regarding this ... you've not used any scritpural proof for these strange ideas and i doubt you''ve got any from the bible to use. You still havn't told me where this information comes from. How can an honest discussion take place when you wont reveal your source?

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I will provide scriptural references for everything you specifically request to be supported by such.

Pegg said:

im guessing your source is an apochryphal book...something that has not been inspired by God.

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All that I present can be supported by the Bible, or at the very least the Bible leaves things open such that what I present is possible.

As I have said elsewhere, I have read everything I can get my hands on that purports to be valid revelation from God. You could think of my efforts as looking high and low for everything possible that helps me to identify the broken shards and pieces of a sword that has been shattered. I believe that within the Bible a perfectly sharp sword can be retrieved and reforged that will be sufficient to put an end to all of the senseless bickering and confusion that so far just makes a mockery of God and His Word. God is not the author of all this confusion, so I also expect this sword to be a very simple and easy thing to understand, that is if you are not burdened by the precepts of men and traditions of the fathers that are false.