The dead rise up...

IAMIAM said:

Ever notice that "Holy" people are carbon copies of one another? They speak the same message, wear the same clothes, act the same way, one after another they walk this earth living, yet dead inside because they are not being who they are, but rather following a formula of what to be.

So yes I believe that after Jesus died, who taught to love one another, not to live by a dogma, an earth quake (radical new understanding) occurred and many "Holy" people came out of their tombs and lived.

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Brilliant!

The Pharisees and Saduccees coming out of their "dead" religion and getting excited about the "Good News" that the Father's Kingdom was coming certainly qualifies.

gnostic said:

Ignoring the gospel of John, because it doesn't have this part, so my focus for this thread will be that of the other 3 gospels (Matthew, Mark & Luke).

So let me set the scene: Jesus' death.

According to all 3 gospels, Jesus was dying on the cross, so the (whole) land was cover in darkness, from noon to 3 in the afternoon (total solar eclipse, perhaps?). Jesus spoke his last words. And then at the moment Jesus was dead, the curtain in the temple was torn, from top to bottom according to Mark and Matthew.

That's what all 3 had in common (again, ignoring John, because John's doesn't mention any of these).

Now what really interested me is this part, which I'll now quote from Matthew's which others didn't mention at all (in red):



The next verse (54) confirmed that there was an earthquake. Mark and Luke left out the earthquake, most likely because Matthew invented the whole earthquake bit. Even John's make no reference to a quake.

Did the earthquake occur?

But that's not the most important question.

The part about rock splitting, the tombs of "many holy people" opened up, and they rose out of their tombs, in Jerusalem - pretty much alive - is the part that I really want to explore.

If such a thing happened, then it would cause panic to know that people who should be dead are alive. And more than just Matthew (or his gospel) would mention it. But pretty much the other gospels and the SUPPOSED (independent) WITNESSES are silent about such event occurring.

Did Matthew (or whoever wrote this gospel) fabricated the risen holy people seen by many people in the holy city (ie Jerusalem)? Explain, please.

Why didn't the other gospels say anything about it?

Do you believe it occur?

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The way the verse is written does not actually say that the dead came to life. It says they came out of the graves due to the earthquake.

Usually when a quake occurs, the ground moves and can split apart. The tombs of the dead could have cracked open causing the corpses inside to be thrown out of them. Then anyone who witnessed the earthquake and corpses enter the city and report it to others.

The idea that the verse means that the corpses were literally resurrected back to life does not originate with the apostles...it comes from a few of the early Church Fathers such as Augustine, Theophylactus, and Zigabenus. But even in their day, it wasnt a widely accepted belief among christians.

pegg said:

The way the verse is written does not actually say that the dead came to life. It says they came out of the graves due to the earthquake.

Usually when a quake occurs, the ground moves and can split apart. The tombs of the dead could have cracked open causing the corpses inside to be thrown out of them. Then anyone who witnessed the earthquake and corpses enter the city and report it to others.

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It could mean that, except the last verse I had quoted (red and in bold):

Matthew 27:53 said:

They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

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From the way I am reading this, the dead didn't just come out of the tombs due to the quake: The risen dead "went into the holy city". So it would seem that the tombs were outside of Jerusalem.

Am I wrong with this interpretation or not?

gnostic said:

It could mean that, except the last verse I had quoted (red and in bold):



From the way I am reading this, the dead didn't just come out of the tombs due to the quake: The risen dead "went into the holy city". So it would seem that the tombs were outside of Jerusalem.

Am I wrong with this interpretation or not?

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vs 53 just may be speaking about the people who saw what had happened in the memorial tombs, and thereafter went to the city to tell people of it.

52 And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up,
53 (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.

it is ambiguous, but i dont think it is saying that the dead were resurrected for the reason that the resurrection is said to occur on the judgement day, not before.

The one I had quoted in the OP was from NIV.

Looking at the 2 verses together (verses 52-53) in the KJV and New American Standard Bible (NASB), and your interpretation doesn't match with these translations.

Pegg said:

vs 53 just may be speaking about the people who saw what had happened in the memorial tombs, and thereafter went to the city to tell people of it.

52 And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up,
53 (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.

it is ambiguous, but i dont think it is saying that the dead were resurrected for the reason that the resurrection is said to occur on the judgement day, not before.

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This was one of several resurrections back to physical life outlined in the NT:

• Lazarus by Jesus (John 11:43-44).
• The ruler's daughter by Jesus (Matthew 9:23-26).
• Eutychus raised back to life through Paul after he fell out of a third-floor window (Acts 20:9-10).
• Tabitha by Peter (Acts 9:36-43)

It was necessary in order to prove Christ had power over the grave and to jump start the church. Those people have died again awaiting their judgment.

gnostic said:

The one I had quoted in the OP was from NIV.

Looking at the 2 verses together (verses 52-53) in the KJV and New American Standard Bible (NASB), and your interpretation doesn't match with these translations.

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the Watchtower view harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians 15 convincing proof of the resurrection is given, but it does not mention anything about people who were resurrected on the day of Jesus death.
Also, the corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life because we are told at Colossians 1:18 that Jesus himself was “the firstborn from the dead.” So if we are to accept the idea that those corpses did rise up after Jesus death, and while he was in the grave for 3 days, then Jesus is not the firstborn from the dead...those unknown persons would be.

So we have to harmonize the event with other scriptures. The best way to harmonize them is to accept that the corpses were thrown out of the graves, and the people who saw that happen went into the city to tell of the event.

Have to amicably disagree, pegg. This cannot mean that He was the first who physically rose from the dead for he himself raised up Lazarus and others, and the bodies of saints arose at his crucifixion. Putting it all together would lead one to interpret Col 1:18 as Christ being the first who rose from death to immortality (1Co 15:20,23; 1 Tim 6:15-16). The saints who were raised undoubtedly died again awaiting their resurrection to immortality at His second coming.

pegg said:

the Watchtower view harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians 15 convincing proof of the resurrection is given, but it does not mention anything about people who were resurrected on the day of Jesus death.
Also, the corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life because we are told at Colossians 1:18 that Jesus himself was “the firstborn from the dead.” So if we are to accept the idea that those corpses did rise up after Jesus death, and while he was in the grave for 3 days, then Jesus is not the firstborn from the dead...those unknown persons would be.

So we have to harmonize the event with other scriptures. The best way to harmonize them is to accept that the corpses were thrown out of the graves, and the people who saw that happen went into the city to tell of the event.

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What of Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration episode?

(Sources:Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36)

Are these 2 prophets not "resurrected"?

If they are not, then how else can they appear before Peter, James and John?

This appeared earlier than Jesus' death and resurrection. And Paul was not there to witness the Transfiguration. Did Paul even know of this event?

gnostic said:

What of Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration episode?

(Sources:Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36)

Are these 2 prophets not "resurrected"?

If they are not, then how else can they appear before Peter, James and John?

This appeared earlier than Jesus' death and resurrection. And Paul was not there to witness the Transfiguration. Did Paul even know of this event?

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that was a vision only. moses and elijah were not literally there.... they will not be resurrected until the messianic reign when all mankind who are in the graves are brought up. the time of the resurrection does not begin until after Armageddon, and when the judgement day begins.

Pegg said:

the time of the resurrection does not begin until after Armageddon, and when the judgement day begins.

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Which resurrection are you talking about?
The spiritual resurrection has been going on for quite some time now.
Are you talking about the physical resurrection?
If so, how do you foresee that happening?

Pegg said:

that was a vision only. moses and elijah were not literally there.... they will not be resurrected until the messianic reign when all mankind who are in the graves are brought up. the time of the resurrection does not begin until after Armageddon, and when the judgement day begins.

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And when has the messiah "reign"?

I must have missed it. The messiah is supposed to reunite and rule the 12 tribes of Israel. That has not happened.

That much of messianic prophecy is clear. And Jesus didn't do that.

kylixguru said:

Which resurrection are you talking about?
The spiritual resurrection has been going on for quite some time now.
Are you talking about the physical resurrection?
If so, how do you foresee that happening?

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im speaking of the physical resurrection as spoken of by Jesus
John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

and as Job expressed faith in:
Job 14:13 O that in She′ol you would conceal me, That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!

and as prophesied by Isaiah
Isaiah 26:19 “Your dead ones will live. A corpse of mine—they will rise up. Awake and cry out joyfully, YOU residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of mallows, and the earth itself will let even those impotent in death drop [in birth].

and as seen in vision by John (late in the 1st century)
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.
Now John was speaking of the earthly physical resurrection to come...he wrote revelation long after the event in question.

Those ones, if they were resurrected did not recieve a spiritual resurrection as Christ had. If they did, they they would have been 'glorified' as written by Paul at 1Cor 15:49 ' ...we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.
Paul says upon their resurrection, they will be 'changed'...what will they be changed into? Not physical humans, for Paul describes what will happen to them once changed
1Thess 4;17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air;

Can a physical body of flesh be caught away in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air? I ask you.

gnostic said:

And when has the messiah "reign"?

I must have missed it. The messiah is supposed to reunite and rule the 12 tribes of Israel. That has not happened.

That much of messianic prophecy is clear. And Jesus didn't do that.

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some are expecting a physical fulfillment, but the reality may be a spiritual fulfillment.

Does God really need to rule mankind from the earth? Can he not do so from heaven?

Pegg said:

im speaking of the physical resurrection as spoken of by Jesus
John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

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This doesn't pin down a physical resurrection. This is talking about the resurrection that precedes judgment, which is when we are quickened by the "breath of life" and are born of the spirit. Then, depending upon how we function in our angelic state, which the scriptures refer to as our first-estate, we are judged in relation to what future physical resurrection we will be given in the "world to come" that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 15.

So, when we go from being a zombie to a person who has experienced a genuine "born again" indwelling of the Holy Spirit within them giving them "life", we become a spiritually resurrected angelic being. So, there are (spiritually) dead people walking all around who are yet awaiting their (spiritual) resurrection. If you do not understand the things of which I speak, you ought to consider the possibility you are yet among the zombie's.

Pegg said:

and as Job expressed faith in:
Job 14:13 O that in She′ol you would conceal me, That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!

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She'ol or Hell is one and the same as being spiritually dead. There are people all around us who are the damned souls in hell. On a collective level, this is what happened to the people of the northern kingdom of Israel. They were put under judgment and scattered abroad like the elements of a dead and decomposing body. But, we learn that in time there is a resurrection on a collective level of the people and nation of Israel. Again, this is a spiritual resurrection when the scattered people rediscover their true identity and they accept Jesus Christ as their Savoir, etc.

Pegg said:

and as prophesied by Isaiah
Isaiah 26:19 “Your dead ones will live. A corpse of mine—they will rise up. Awake and cry out joyfully, YOU residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of mallows, and the earth itself will let even those impotent in death drop [in birth].

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I don't detect how you are explicitly connecting this passage with what I am talking about. It's not that I don't believe in a physical resurrection, its just that what is the most relevant to us right now is whether or not we are spiritually resurrected and to what father and mother we are spiritually born to.

Our physical resurrection takes place in the afterlife and is governed wholly by the purity and quality of our spirit here. If our spirit is pure here in our first-estate then our physical resurrection will be through those who are pure ("perfect") in their generations as Noah was. Their blood lineage in the "world to come" is dependent upon our spiritual lineage here and now.

Those who subscribe to lies and false spirits who are given to false and/or man-made religious ideas about God shall be "named" (organized) by the Father/Judge to come fourth in lineages like Esau's children with Canaanite women and Judah's children with Canaanite women, etc. The Father fore-ordains (judges) all spirits as to how, when and where they are organized into His family and what privileges will be afforded them.

For example, this is why Jesus snapped back at the taunts from the Pharisee and Sadducee leaders who were born through Shelah, Judah's son with a Canaanite woman, about Jesus being born of fornication (through Judah and Tamar's fornication) and his retort to them was that their father, meaning way back in their spiritual first-estate before they were physically resurrected/reborn, was the devil (Lucifer).

Jesus clearly understood the link between polluted physical lineage in the second estate as being a direct outflow of polluted spiritual lineage in the first-estate. Being sealed by the Judge to come forth in Cain's cursed lineage is what Perdition is. This is why Cain is called the Son of Perdition. He kept not his first-estate and became a fallen angel and as a result all those spirits who were of Cain's same spirit (Lucifer) are bound together to become his physical seed in the world to follow. Thus we have the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent battling it out in each "world" as creations are birthed in cycles over and over.

Pegg said:

and as seen in vision by John (late in the 1st century)
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.
Now John was speaking of the earthly physical resurrection to come...he wrote revelation long after the event in question.

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The Father is who sits upon the throne and judges the living and the dead (spiritually speaking). All those whose names are recorded in the "book of life" are fore-ordained to come forth in the following world ("world to come") in a lineage that qualifies for receiving spiritual birth.

Those whose names are blotted out of the "book of life" are deemed unworthy to receive their future physical tabernacle in a lineage that qualifies for spiritual life, so they are sealed up (fore-ordained) to come forth through Cain's seed, which is a lineage that is cursed such that the Holy Spirit will not dwell in them. This physical resurrection is called the resurrection unto death. What it means is it is the physical resurrection into a tabernacle with a bloodline that cannot become spiritually born.

Pegg said:

Those ones, if they were resurrected did not recieve a spiritual resurrection as Christ had. If they did, they they would have been 'glorified' as written by Paul at 1Cor 15:49 ' ...we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.
Paul says upon their resurrection, they will be 'changed'...what will they be changed into? Not physical humans, for Paul describes what will happen to them once changed
1Thess 4;17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air;

Can a physical body of flesh be caught away in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air? I ask you.

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Jesus brought spiritual resurrection because He newly introduced the ordinances of "life" by way of the high priesthood after the Order of the Son of God, or what is called the Melchizedek Priesthood. He laid hands upon the heads of His disciples and bestowed upon them the "breath of life". See John 20:22.

This was literally them being born of the spirit. They formerly did not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them and thus were in a state of spiritual death, but then the Spirit of God was received by them and in this manner they were spiritually resurrected. Hell or spiritual death is simply being spiritually separated from God's spirit. So, they passed from being a zombie to being a living soul while in the flesh.

Of course, at that point in time their resurrection wasn't a complete resurrection to the fulness of glory. It was only ordained at that time for the "breath of life" that was given to be a bestowal of the "fish" level of glory. Christianity came about in the beginning of the 5th Millennium and Christians call themselves "fishes" for a significant reason they are not aware of. If you look at Genesis 1 to see what was created on Day 5 (5th millennium) you will see that Christianity came right on schedule.

kylixguru said:

I don't detect how you are explicitly connecting this passage with what I am talking about.

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No, you and I are on completetly different wave lengths...i've never been to your dimension

kylixguru said:

It's not that I don't believe in a physical resurrection, its just that what is the most relevant to us right now is whether or not we are spiritually resurrected and to what father and mother we are spiritually born to.

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i have no clue what this means

being spiritually resurrected sounds similar to being awake spiritually. Jesus stressed the importance of keeping 'awake' spiritually when he said "Happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments...' Staying awake spiritually depends upon ourselves...i dont think a 'resurrection' is involved. God can certainly open a persons eyes to understand, but everyone is capable of learning and waking themselves up spiritually if they choose to.

kylixguru said:

Our physical resurrection takes place in the afterlife and is governed wholly by the purity and quality of our spirit here. If our spirit is pure here in our first-estate then our physical resurrection will be through those who are pure ("perfect") in their generations as Noah was. Their blood lineage in the "world to come" is dependent upon our spiritual lineage here and now.

Those who subscribe to lies and false spirits who are given to false and/or man-made religious ideas about God shall be "named" (organized) by the Father/Judge to come fourth in lineages like Esau's children with Canaanite women and Judah's children with Canaanite women, etc. The Father fore-ordains (judges) all spirits as to how, when and where they are organized into His family and what privileges will be afforded them.

For example, this is why Jesus snapped back at the taunts from the Pharisee and Sadducee leaders who were born through Shelah, Judah's son with a Canaanite woman, about Jesus being born of fornication (through Judah and Tamar's fornication) and his retort to them was that their father, meaning way back in their spiritual first-estate before they were physically resurrected/reborn, was the devil (Lucifer).

Jesus clearly understood the link between polluted physical lineage in the second estate as being a direct outflow of polluted spiritual lineage in the first-estate. Being sealed by the Judge to come forth in Cain's cursed lineage is what Perdition is. This is why Cain is called the Son of Perdition. He kept not his first-estate and became a fallen angel and as a result all those spirits who were of Cain's same spirit (Lucifer) are bound together to become his physical seed in the world to follow. Thus we have the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent battling it out in each "world" as creations are birthed in cycles over and over.

The Father is who sits upon the throne and judges the living and the dead (spiritually speaking). All those whose names are recorded in the "book of life" are fore-ordained to come forth in the following world ("world to come") in a lineage that qualifies for receiving spiritual birth.

Those whose names are blotted out of the "book of life" are deemed unworthy to receive their future physical tabernacle in a lineage that qualifies for spiritual life, so they are sealed up (fore-ordained) to come forth through Cain's seed, which is a lineage that is cursed such that the Holy Spirit will not dwell in them. This physical resurrection is called the resurrection unto death. What it means is it is the physical resurrection into a tabernacle with a bloodline that cannot become spiritually born.

Jesus brought spiritual resurrection because He newly introduced the ordinances of "life" by way of the high priesthood after the Order of the Son of God, or what is called the Melchizedek Priesthood. He laid hands upon the heads of His disciples and bestowed upon them the "breath of life". See John 20:22.

This was literally them being born of the spirit. They formerly did not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them and thus were in a state of spiritual death, but then the Spirit of God was received by them and in this manner they were spiritually resurrected. Hell or spiritual death is simply being spiritually separated from God's spirit. So, they passed from being a zombie to being a living soul while in the flesh.

Of course, at that point in time their resurrection wasn't a complete resurrection to the fulness of glory. It was only ordained at that time for the "breath of life" that was given to be a bestowal of the "fish" level of glory. Christianity came about in the beginning of the 5th Millennium and Christians call themselves "fishes" for a significant reason they are not aware of. If you look at Genesis 1 to see what was created on Day 5 (5th millennium) you will see that Christianity came right on schedule.

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Im not sure where these ideas come from, but i'd like to see what scriptures you use to back them up.

Pegg said:

Hell is the grave. Anyone in hell are dead....literally. So they are not walking around among us.

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Hell is spiritual death, which is being separated from God.

You can be physically alive and spiritually alive.
You can be physically alive and spiritually dead.
You can be physically dead and spiritually alive.
You can be physically dead and spiritually dead.

So, it stands to reason, if there is both physical and spiritual life and there is both physical and spiritual death then there is also both physical and spiritual resurrection.

Once you become sensitive to these distinctions and you take care to handle them properly, then you can start to put everything together in a simple, straight forward and practical manner. You can start to read what Jesus says about spiritual parentage to people with a given physical parentage and put some things together. I'll touch on that more below.

Pegg said:

No, you and I are on completetly different wave lengths...i've never been to your dimension

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Does this mean you will patiently bear with me until you can objectively understand what I'm trying to present for your consideration or does it mean you are about to dismiss me as a nutcase?

Pegg said:

being spiritually resurrected sounds similar to being awake spiritually. Jesus stressed the importance of keeping 'awake' spiritually when he said "Happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments...' Staying awake spiritually depends upon ourselves...i dont think a 'resurrection' is involved. God can certainly open a persons eyes to understand, but everyone is capable of learning and waking themselves up spiritually if they choose to.

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Being spiritually awake as you define it and spiritually alive as I define it are very much alike. I refer to this as going from a state of not having God's Spirit in you to being born or resurrected unto life with God's Spirit in you. Having separation of God's Spirit from us is spiritual death, or hell. I don't think the gap between us is as far as you expect.

Pegg said:

Im not sure where these ideas come from, but i'd like to see what scriptures you use to back them up.

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Ok, let's just start out with the case I spoke of earlier. Judah's son Shelah was born from a Canaanite woman and therefore had the cursed lineage. Jesus was having a tussle with Pharisee and Sadducee leaders who were descendents of Shelah. At one point they did a boast, which seemed to be rubbing things in Jesus' face, that they were not children of fornication. You do recall from Genesis chapter 38 that Judah and Tamar fornicated to give birth to Jesus' lineage so Jesus was a child of fornication. But, even though there was fornication, there wasn't the cursed Canaanite lineage in Jesus' pedigree. So, when they hit him with that issue, which evidently was a little touchy, Jesus gave a blistering retort to them. Please read John 8:

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He [Cain] was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth [kept not his first estate], because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus was dealing with souls physically reborn/resurrected into the lineage and seed of Cain through Judah's son Shelah who was from a Canaanite woman. Because of their physical lineage through Cain's cursed seed he knew automatically that in their angelic state or first estate before they came into physicality in this world that they were of Lucifer's spirit.

They started out like Cain with full knowledge of how to render an offering acceptable to the Father, but they willfully rebelled and sought the glory of the world and resorted to lies and murder to try and get their way. They kept not their first estate just as Jude 1:6 states of the watchers who did likewise. Cain's seed continues to rebel against the Father and continues to usurp rightful places of power and governance to promote Lucifer's agenda, which is obtaining worldly glory first and foremost.

So, Jesus retorted by telling them that the spiritual father of their soul was the devil based upon their cursed lineage, which is also why they could not hear his words. Those born into Perdition's flesh cannot receive spiritual life. The Holy Ghost will not enter into defiled and polluted tabernacles.

Their only hope of salvation would be to accept the truth of their present circumstances and to live within the constraints of their polluted flesh and to accept the ordinance of baptism which would then enable them to be cleansed of their polluted flesh by passing through a cycle of physical death and a physical resurrection in order to come forth into a tabernacle through a lineage that does not bear the Canaanite curse that prevents them from receiving spiritual resurrection/birth.

kylixguru said:

So, it stands to reason, if there is both physical and spiritual life and there is both physical and spiritual death then there is also both physical and spiritual resurrection.

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yes i agree with that.

Jesus was resurrected in spirit according to 1Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is ...raised up in glory.... 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body....“The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

But that is not what happened to the corpses that were thrown out of the graves during the earthquake. Jesus is supposed to be the first of those who recieve this spiritual resurrection....and the physical resurrection is not supposed to happen until judgement day after Christ is enthroned in his heavenly kingdom....that didnt happen on that day.

kylixguru said:

You can start to read what Jesus says about spiritual parentage to people with a given physical parentage and put some things together. I'll touch on that more below.

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kylixguru said:

Does this mean you will patiently bear with me until you can objectively understand what I'm trying to present for your consideration or does it mean you are about to dismiss me as a nutcase?

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i wont dismiss you, but i would still like to know where these ideas come from. What books of the bible are you using...or are you using the apochrypha?

kylixguru said:

Being spiritually awake as you define it and spiritually alive as I define it are very much alike. I refer to this as going from a state of not having God's Spirit in you to being born or resurrected unto life with God's Spirit in you. Having separation of God's Spirit from us is spiritual death, or hell. I don't think the gap between us is as far as you expect.

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what do you mean by the spirit 'indwelling' in a person? i've heard of this before and I dont believe everyone is born again....that is not a choice that we can individually make, but it is at Gods choosing. So there is nothing wrong if a person is not born again....most people will not be born again because God does not need all of mankind in heaven with him. We are created for the earth and this is where we will be staying.

kylixguru said:

Ok, let's just start out with the case I spoke of earlier. Judah's son Shelah was born from a Canaanite woman and therefore had the cursed lineage. Jesus was having a tussle with Pharisee and Sadducee leaders who were descendents of Shelah. At one point they did a boast, which seemed to be rubbing things in Jesus' face, that they were not children of fornication. You do recall from Genesis chapter 38 that Judah and Tamar fornicated to give birth to Jesus' lineage so Jesus was a child of fornication. But, even though there was fornication, there wasn't the cursed Canaanite lineage in Jesus' pedigree. So, when they hit him with that issue, which evidently was a little touchy, Jesus gave a blistering retort to them. Please read John 8:

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He [Cain] was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth [kept not his first estate], because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus was dealing with souls physically reborn/resurrected into the lineage and seed of Cain through Judah's son Shelah who was from a Canaanite woman. Because of their physical lineage through Cain's cursed seed he knew automatically that in their angelic state or first estate before they came into physicality in this world that they were of Lucifer's spirit.

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i really dont think that is what Jesus had in mind when he said 'you are from your father the devil'

its a simple case of a persons heart condition. A good hearted person will have room for God, a bad hearted person will reject God. Gods servants were all chosen because they were good hearted and faithful... but the wicked are those who reject God...they have become like the devils children.

kylixguru said:

The Holy Ghost will not enter into defiled and polluted tabernacles.

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true, but not all tabernacles will be born again either.

kylixguru said:

Their only hope of salvation would be to accept the truth of their present circumstances and to live within the constraints of their polluted flesh and to accept the ordinance of baptism which would then enable them to be cleansed of their polluted flesh by passing through a cycle of physical death and a physical resurrection in order to come forth into a tabernacle through a lineage that does not bear the Canaanite curse that prevents them from receiving spiritual resurrection/birth.

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im really sorry, but i dont even know where to begin

gnostic said:

What of Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration episode?

(Sources:Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36)

Are these 2 prophets not "resurrected"?

If they are not, then how else can they appear before Peter, James and John?

This appeared earlier than Jesus' death and resurrection. And Paul was not there to witness the Transfiguration. Did Paul even know of this event?

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Check to be sure...I took it a face value when I heard it....

Paul...who used to be called Saul....never met the Carpenter.
An event (that seems like a stroke).....knocked him down from his horse.
He had a vision and from that time forward, ceased his persecution of Christians and became one.

He also seems responsible for most of the scripture comprising the new testament.

pegg said:

some are expecting a physical fulfillment, but the reality may be a spiritual fulfillment.

Does God really need to rule mankind from the earth? Can he not do so from heaven?

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That's speculation.

The fulfillment of the covenants from Abraham to Moses to David were all done in the (supposedly) real, physical world (according to the Hebrew bible).

1. God promised the land of Canaan to the descendants of Abraham (and Isaac and Jacob), which was fulfilled when Joshua and the Israelites invaded Canaan.
2. Moses received the covenant in the form of the laws (Torah).
3. David received kingship, and for his descendants (at least in Judah) were also fulfilled till at least the 6th century BCE.

I would think that fulfilling the messianic prophecy (though somewhat exaggerated) would be like fulfilling those covenants to Abraham/Isaac/Jacob, Moses and David, and were meant for the physical reality too, not the spiritual world. There is no need for messiah in heaven, since that supposedly is under God's thumb...

...does God have thumbs?