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Is critiquing the gay community the new antisemitic behavior?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Forcing religion's or businesses to change their beliefs isn't right. If they want social contracts for the same rights as heterosexuals, I'm fine with that. But don't force to change their beliefs. The same way I'm not forcing you to abandon yours.

Strange. I've never felt forced to change my beliefs to fit the law. What makes you feel like you have to do this?

Edit: I get the impression that you're an observant Jew. Does the fact that the law allows stores to open on Saturday (even if nobody forces you to shop in them) also "force you to abandon your beliefs"?
 
Last edited:

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
I'd have to find the thread, but I remember reading a thread about businesses being fined for refusing to host a homosexual wedding reception because of their beliefs. You want equal rights under the law of the U.S. - fine. You want to be able to file as one, medical rights, etc... I'm okay with that.

I may not personally agree with the law, but the law in the US should be fair. However, I will not support it when we are forced to change our business to accommodate something so in the face of the Torah.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
So are you for the argument that drugs should be legalized as well?
which ones...alcohol is legal

Legalize suicide?
you need to be more specific....

Where do we ascertain that these activities are wrong?

you can't.

So far the criteria that had been posted for weather for not something should be legal is:
Originally Posted by ChristineES
A person shouldn't critique anyone else's lifestyle unless it's his or her own or it effects him or her in some way. Otherwise, live and let live.

and???

I can list hundreds of items that you and others would find reprehensible. Where do YOU draw the line? Consent? There are plenty of things people can do which our society has deemed immoral or socially unacceptable.

have you listed them?
i'm asking for a few.

Forcing religion's or businesses to change their beliefs isn't right. If they want social contracts for the same rights as heterosexuals, I'm fine with that. But don't force to change their beliefs. The same way I'm not forcing you to abandon yours.
no one can force anyone to change their beliefs....that is impossible.
no one should force anyone to shut up either....that is possible.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'd have to find the thread, but I remember reading a thread about businesses being fined for refusing to host a homosexual wedding reception because of their beliefs. You want equal rights under the law of the U.S. - fine. You want to be able to file as one, medical rights, etc... I'm okay with that.
One of the rights under the law of the US is that businesses providing services to the public can't discriminate in the provision of those services.

So which is it? Do you want equal rights for everyone, or do you want businesses to be able to discriminate against gay people? You can't have it both ways.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I'd have to find the thread, but I remember reading a thread about businesses being fined for refusing to host a homosexual wedding reception because of their beliefs. You want equal rights under the law of the U.S. - fine. You want to be able to file as one, medical rights, etc... I'm okay with that.

I may not personally agree with the law, but the law in the US should be fair. However, I will not support it when we are forced to change our business to accommodate something so in the face of the Torah.

people are jerks on both sides of the coin.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
One of the rights under the law of the US is that businesses providing services to the public can't discriminate in the provision of those services.

So which is it? Do you want equal rights for everyone, or do you want businesses to be able to discriminate against gay people? You can't have it both ways.
I guess to be honest it is a very difficult issue to have a concrete stance on. US law is very ambiguous when it comes to providing services to the public. For example, with liquor, I can deny the sale of liquor to anyone I want depending how I phrase it. I can't say I'm going to deny it because your black. But I could say, you came in smelling of booze or you were not walking right and be perfectly within my rights to deny you. You could even call the police and they would support my decision.

Where is the line? That's a very tough thing for you or for me to say. I agree with you there. When it comes to hiring, firing, promoting, and working, I think the government should have fairly strict guidelines. When it comes with religious celebrations such as a wedding reception, people should have the right to deny access. Now, I'm sure you can find an example that doesn't fit in perfectly with what I'm saying, but you should get the gist of my point of view. :eek:
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Where is the line? That's a very tough thing for you or for me to say. I agree with you there. When it comes to hiring, firing, promoting, and working, I think the government should have fairly strict guidelines. When it comes with religious celebrations such as a wedding reception, people should have the right to deny access. Now, I'm sure you can find an example that doesn't fit in perfectly with what I'm saying, but you should get the gist of my point of view. :eek:
since when have weddings receptions been exclusively religious?
 

otokage007

Well-Known Member
When it comes with religious celebrations such as a wedding reception, people should have the right to deny access. Now, I'm sure you can find an example that doesn't fit in perfectly with what I'm saying, but you should get the gist of my point of view. :eek:

Just curious... It would be right for those people to deny access to jewish?

So are you for the argument that drugs should be legalized as well? Legalize suicide? Where do we ascertain that these activities are wrong?

Drugs and suicide are harmful conducts both for you and the citizens. Is homosexuality harmful in any way?

I can list hundreds of items that you and others would find reprehensible. Where do YOU draw the line? Consent? There are plenty of things people can do which our society has deemed immoral or socially unacceptable.

But wouldn't be lovely if everyone could do whatever they want without being scared of what society would think about them? Nothing should be "socially unacceptable" as long as it is not harmful.

Forcing religion's or businesses to change their beliefs isn't right. If they want social contracts for the same rights as heterosexuals, I'm fine with that. But don't force to change their beliefs. The same way I'm not forcing you to abandon yours.

I will answer with your own words:

I don't think homosexuality is okay, and I'm going to do what I can to make sure it is not socially acceptable.

Are u sure u are doing nothing against homosexuals?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I guess to be honest it is a very difficult issue to have a concrete stance on. US law is very ambiguous when it comes to providing services to the public. For example, with liquor, I can deny the sale of liquor to anyone I want depending how I phrase it. I can't say I'm going to deny it because your black. But I could say, you came in smelling of booze or you were not walking right and be perfectly within my rights to deny you. You could even call the police and they would support my decision.
Yes: denying service for reasons legitimately related to the business is fine. Denying service on the basis of illegal discrimination (e.g. on the basis of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation) is not.

It seems like you're reasonably clear on what the law says, so again: do you support the law as it stands, or do you want to change it to allow discrimination? You've argued for both, but they're in conflict with each other.

BTW: you do realize that the laws that prohibit a business owner from discriminating against gay customers are the same ones that would prohibit him from putting up a "gentiles only" sign, right?

Where is the line? That's a very tough thing for you or for me to say. I agree with you there. When it comes to hiring, firing, promoting, and working, I think the government should have fairly strict guidelines. When it comes with religious celebrations such as a wedding reception, people should have the right to deny access. Now, I'm sure you can find an example that doesn't fit in perfectly with what I'm saying, but you should get the gist of my point of view. :eek:

Renting a banquet hall for a wedding reception has nothing to do with the religious beliefs of the hall owner.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Just curious... It would be right for those people to deny access to jewish?
Sure, I would expect many places to deny us because they either can't accommodate our needs - kosher meals, separating women from men, etc... or because they don't agree with out practices.

Drugs and suicide are harmful conducts both for you and the citizens. Is homosexuality harmful in any way?
What does marijuana do to you that is so dangerous?

But wouldn't be lovely if everyone could do whatever they want without being scared of what society would think about them? Nothing should be "socially unacceptable" as long as it is not harmful.
I don't like wearing my seat belt, I don't like being denied my marijuana, i don't like living...etc... The list goes on and on. What is harmful about those actions?

since when have weddings receptions been exclusively religious?
Have you been married? :facepalm:
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
You are engulfed in a false analogy. Rather than outrageously comparing homosexuality to drug abuse, skin color or left-handedness would be a far more informed choice.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Yes: denying service for reasons legitimately related to the business is fine. Denying service on the basis of illegal discrimination (e.g. on the basis of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation) is not.

It seems like you're reasonably clear on what the law says, so again: do you support the law as it stands, or do you want to change it to allow discrimination? You've argued for both, but they're in conflict with each other.
I am against discrimination in public avenues. I wouldn't discriminate a homosexual that comes in to buy a bottle of booze. But I do think I should have the right to deny a group of people the right to celebrate a religious function such as marriage or a reception in my business or my property. It's a very tough distinction and I'm probably not doing the best at explaining my position. I would expect a church to deny me a wedding just as i would also expect many reception places from denying me for a dozen different reasons.

BTW: you do realize that the laws that prohibit a business owner from discriminating against gay customers are the same ones that would prohibit him from putting up a "gentiles only" sign, right?
I'm aware of that.

Renting a banquet hall for a wedding reception has nothing to do with the religious beliefs of the hall owner.
I've never been to a wedding reception that wasn't religious... Maybe it is just where I grew up and how I was raised. To me, they are not separable. At the same time, keep in mind, with our belief's, Jews tend to shop within house. We don't go to Applebees and Ruby Tuesday and claim they are discriminating against us because they won't accommodate our beliefs. We tend to stay in communities that honor the Sabbath (or at least allow us to us), have kosher places to eat, and are generally all within walking distance of shul.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I am against discrimination in public avenues. I wouldn't discriminate a homosexual that comes in to buy a bottle of booze. But I do think I should have the right to deny a group of people the right to celebrate a religious function such as marriage or a reception in my business or my property.
Again, I think you're contradicting yourself. A banquet hall offering its facilities to the public for rentals is a public venue.

It's a very tough distinction and I'm probably not doing the best at explaining my position.
That's putting it mildly.

I would expect a church to deny me a wedding just as i would also expect many reception places from denying me for a dozen different reasons.
A banquet hall is not a church. Apart from that, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a run-of-the-mill banquet hall to deny you their services... provided you pay for your rental and they have availability, of course.

I'm aware of that.
So are you arguing that that should be legal, too?

I've never been to a wedding reception that wasn't religious... Maybe it is just where I grew up and how I was raised. To me, they are not separable.
It sounds like you've led a sheltered life. I've been to several non-religious weddings and the receptions that went along with them.

At the same time, keep in mind, with our belief's, Jews tend to shop within house. We don't go to Applebees and Ruby Tuesday and claim they are discriminating against us because they won't accommodate our beliefs. We tend to stay in communities that honor the Sabbath (or at least allow us to us), have kosher places to eat, and are generally all within walking distance of shul.
The fact that you choose not to exercise a right doesn't mean you don't have it.

And there's a difference between a restaurant not deciding to offer kosher selections and a restaurant that actively forbids Jews from patronizing it. In the first case, the choice whether to eat there is yours; in the second case, that choice has been taken away from you.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
You are engulfed in a false analogy. Rather than outrageously comparing homosexuality to drug abuse, skin color or left-handedness would be a far more informed choice.

this
:yes:


it's actually a rather desperate attempt at putting someone else underneath ones self...
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Have you been married? :facepalm:
More and more people in Israel hold non religious wedding ceremonies. And more relevant to this thread, same sex marriage are legal in Israel (And soon enough they would probably gain a legal platform to be preformed in Israel). Is it possible that a Jewish majority is releasing itself from a religious monopoly people like you take for granted?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
A number of the KKK admits to being bigots.

I stand corrected. :D

Are people born to murder? rape? attracted to animals? attracted to children? The list goes on.

Baruch HaShem.

If we let ethnic Jews own property, why not let them murder, rape, have sex with animals and children? the list goes on. Where do you draw the line?

I am against discrimination in public avenues. I wouldn't discriminate a homosexual that comes in to buy a bottle of booze. But I do think I should have the right to deny a group of people the right to celebrate a religious function such as marriage or a reception in my business or my property. It's a very tough distinction and I'm probably not doing the best at explaining my position. I would expect a church to deny me a wedding just as i would also expect many reception places from denying me for a dozen different reasons.

I've never been to a wedding reception that wasn't religious... Maybe it is just where I grew up and how I was raised. To me, they are not separable. At the same time, keep in mind, with our belief's, Jews tend to shop within house. We don't go to Applebees and Ruby Tuesday and claim they are discriminating against us because they won't accommodate our beliefs. We tend to stay in communities that honor the Sabbath (or at least allow us to us), have kosher places to eat, and are generally all within walking distance of shul.

My wedding wasn't religious. The hall I rented for the reception didn't even ask.

Do you recognize a difference between a business not accommodating a certain religious preference due to lack of a facility for it, such as a grocery store not having any kosher suppliers, and a business hanging up a sign on the door saying "No Jews"?
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
So are you for the argument that drugs should be legalized as well? Legalize suicide? Where do we ascertain that these activities are wrong?

So far the criteria that had been posted for weather for not something should be legal is:


I can list hundreds of items that you and others would find reprehensible. Where do YOU draw the line? Consent? There are plenty of things people can do which our society has deemed immoral or socially unacceptable.

Forcing religion's or businesses to change their beliefs isn't right. If they want social contracts for the same rights as heterosexuals, I'm fine with that. But don't force to change their beliefs. The same way I'm not forcing you to abandon yours.

Why does what society think have any weight into the wrongness or rightness of an act?

I'd have to find the thread, but I remember reading a thread about businesses being fined for refusing to host a homosexual wedding reception because of their beliefs. You want equal rights under the law of the U.S. - fine. You want to be able to file as one, medical rights, etc... I'm okay with that.

I may not personally agree with the law, but the law in the US should be fair. However, I will not support it when we are forced to change our business to accommodate something so in the face of the Torah.

That's called discrimination to deny them services if they are a public business, but I don't know if there are different rules for events by a privately owned business.

You are engulfed in a false analogy. Rather than outrageously comparing homosexuality to drug abuse, skin color or left-handedness would be a far more informed choice.

I find myself for the first time fully agreeing with Jayhawker Soule.
 

tempter

Active Member
The reason I titled this is because there appears to be. a rushed to judgment in categorizing someone as "homophobic" or "anti-semitic." I use the concept of anti-semitism because due to what I read from blogs from Jewish websites, articles, and plain ole' conversation, there appears to be a rush to judgment on an individual(s) critique on Israel and that being labeled as anti-semitic. Similarly, if someone does not believe in homosexuality somehow they are labeled as having an irrational fear thus bring called "homophobic." For example back in 2008-2009 in west hollywood an owner of a popular resturant which gay patrons attended frequently apparently supported the initiative of not allowing gays to marry. Some how gay patrons caught wind of it and protested outside. Some threw objects at the building hitting patrons inside (I assume people were on an outside patio). This resulted in a loss of business from gay customers. Now, whatever this owner did was his/her personal business but I sense that if one does not agree with accepting homosexuality they are labeled homophobic. Similarly if someone criticize Israel they are somehow anti-semitic.

Now from personal beliefs do I agree with homosexual lifestyle? Not entirely. The reason why is because of personal experiences. I used to be hit on by gay men and transsexuals and apparently there is this idea that all straight men are inhetently gay and its not gay if 1) You don't tell anyone and 2) If the transsexual considers himself a female its not being gay or having gay tendencies. Now does me criticizing this as a problem in the gay community label me as a homophobe? Personally I don't think so but many straight guys go through this so my thing is there should be a dialogue and some form of understanding between the communities as to what is considered hateful or constructive criticism.

If the criticism is done in a constructive manner for constructive results, I'm for it. If it's done out of mere hate, I think it's wrong.
Rather or not it's the new antisemitic behavior...? I suppose it could be considered that to some.
 
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