Is critiquing the gay community the new antisemitic behavior?

Quagmire said:

There's a difference between disapproving of something and "not allowing" someone to do it.

Ironically, you're the one mandating someone else's actions here. The other person is just expressing an opinion.

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Yes and No. I understand your point. Let me try and phrase this in a way you can hopefully relate to.

Quagmire, I'm going to make an assumption and for the sake of argument lets assume its true. You hate driving with your seat belt and think you have every right to do so without punishment. You not having your seat belt doesn't infringe on my day-to-day life. For the most part, you're right.

If feel strongly enough about it - you're going to fight for society to adapt to your point of view. I don't think homosexuality is okay, and I'm going to do what I can to make sure it is not socially acceptable, but at the same time, I'm not going to round up a militia to go hunting for homosexuals.

otokage007 said:

So no, I can not stand u being against homosexuality, because it is cruel and a really perverse way of thinking. To not allow others to do what they want when they are not hurting anyone, is to repress them and make them unhappy.

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There are a ton of things that society prevents people from doing for numerous reasons mostly having to do with morals and ethics. Someone who wants to have relations with family members can't do that.... Who are they hurting. You may not agree with my beliefs but I would hope that you can at least respect them in the same way I respect your beliefs.

otokage007 said:

It is because of people like you that homosexuals these days have so many problems in society and requires a huge amount of effort for them to tell the truth about their sexuality. U really are a bad person and u should re-read your holy books because I feel u will go straight to hell if you don't change your mind.

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If you knew anything about my beliefs you would know Judaism doesn't have a hell. You would also know that the majority of religious Jews really just want to be left alone the same way you want to be left alone. We're not looking to convert you to Judaism. Were not even looking to convert anyone to Judaism.

I feel disappointed that after a few short paragraphs of dialogue you are so quick to judge me and tell me how bad of a person I am without knowing much of anything about me.

Deut 13:1 said:

Yes and No. I understand your point. Let me try and phrase this in a way you can hopefully relate to.

Quagmire, I'm going to make an assumption and for the sake of argument lets assume its true. You hate driving with your seat belt and think you have every right to do so without punishment. You not having your seat belt doesn't infringe on my day-to-day life. For the most part, you're right.

If feel strongly enough about it - you're going to fight for society to adapt to your point of view. I don't think homosexuality is okay, and I'm going to do what I can to make sure it is not socially acceptable, but at the same time, I'm not going to round up a militia to go hunting for homosexuals.

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I can not understand why a jew, that belongs to a group that was severely discriminated and persecuted, is willing to do the same against another group.

Deut 13:1 said:

There are a ton of things that society prevents people from doing for numerous reasons mostly having to do with morals and ethics.

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For example? Because most of things prohibited are so because of 1) doing them endangers yourself, or 2) doing them endangers those around you. And homosexuality does neither.

Deut 13:1 said:

Someone who wants to have relations with family members can't do that.... Who are they hurting. You may not agree with my beliefs but I would hope that you can at least respect them in the same way I respect your beliefs.

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Well, in an advanced and civilizated society you can have relations with your family members if you want. Maybe not on Israel. The difference between good people and you, is that even if they think incest is revolting, they would never try to prevent people from doing it. Because why should they? If two people love each other, then u have to respect this. If a woman likes her brother, who are you to condemn their relationship? who are u to say she is nasty?

Deut 13:1 said:

If you knew anything about my beliefs you would know Judaism doesn't have a hell.

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Deut 13:1 said:

You would also know that the majority of religious Jews really just want to be left alone the same way you want to be left alone. We're not looking to convert you to Judaism. Were not even looking to convert anyone to Judaism.

I feel disappointed that after a few short paragraphs of dialogue you are so quick to judge me and tell me how bad of a person I am without knowing much of anything about me.

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Knowing you are an homophobic is more than enough information to judge you.

Judging by a cursory perusal of this thread, I'd say that criticizing gay folk in any way is like touching the 3rd rail.
In my town, they passed a resolution extending greater partnership benefits to gay as opposed to straight couples.
Response to criticism was swift & harsh. Apparently, supporting equal rights was "homophobic". Whooda thunk it?

Revoltingest said:

Judging by a cursory perusal of this thread, I'd say that criticizing gay folk in any way is like touching the 3rd rail.
In my town, they passed a resolution extending greater partnership benefits to gay as opposed to straight couples.
Response to criticism was swift & harsh. Apparently, supporting equal rights was "homophobic". Whooda thunk it?

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That's hard to believe, but if it were the case, I would also oppose. Why would gay people have more rights than straight people? It's quite nonsense. I support equality.

By the way, do you think positive discrimination is an acceptable method to achieve equality?

otokage007 said:

That's hard to believe, but if it were the case, I would also oppose. Why would gay people have more rights than straight people? It's quite nonsense. I support equality.

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The rationale was that straight couples could marry, & gay couples could not.
But it failed to consider that many straight couples had good reason to be in
an equally committed relationship, but without benefit of God's approval.

By the way, do you think positive discrimination is an acceptable method to achieve equality?

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No. It punishes individuals who didn't cause the problem.
Moreover, I don't consider "positive discrimination" to be all that positive.

I can not understand why a jew, that belongs to a group that was severely discriminated and persecuted, is willing to do the same against another group. This really speaks a lot about the horrible person you are :/

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Most Black Americans, especially from the ones I've spoken to, do not appreciate in any way whatsoever being compared to a group that's defined by their sexual proclivity. Many Blacks are against Gay rights. Are you prepared to call them all horrible people too? Should everyone who's ever been persecuted stick up for another just because they are persecuted?

Well, in an advanced and civilizated society you can have relations with your family members if you want. Maybe not on Israel. The difference between good people and you, is that even if they think incest is revolting, they would never try to prevent people from doing it. Because why should they? If two people love each other, then u have to respect this. If a woman likes her brother, who are you to condemn their relationship? who are u to say she is nasty? just who the hell do you think u people are?

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So good people don't try to stop incest and bad people want laws against it? By this logic, How about people who believe the age of consent should be 18? Who is to infringe on the rights of a 14 year old by saying they're a "Minor" and shouldn't have freedom to choose their partner? In your country Spain, I believe the age of consent is quite low, is it not? Am I a bad person if I think that age is too low?

Knowing you are an homophobic is more than enough information to judge you.

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Knowing anything about anyone is more than enough info to judge them. It depends on what your own bias is in how you judge.

otokage007 said:

So if I say: I'm on favour that women should be raped and children beheaded, am I "just expressing an opinion?"

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Yes. :yes: as well as alerting anyone within hearing range to how much your opinions are worth.

otokage007 said:

And of course, he isn't a judge, he can not "allow" nor "not allow" someone to do something, thank god.

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Not the point: there's a difference between saying "I'm against such and such" and saying ". . .and you better be too. In fact, if you aren't, you're a [fill-in-the-blank]".

This whole idea that it's OK to be fascist as long as it's for the right cause is not only hypocritical, but it tends to damage the very causes it's used to promote.

Shermana said:

Most Black Americans, especially from the ones I've spoken to, do not appreciate in any way whatsoever being compared to a group that's defined by their sexual proclivity. Many Blacks are against Gay rights. Are you prepared to call them all horrible people too? Should everyone who's ever been persecuted stick up for another just because they are persecuted?

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Homophobics are not quite a good people whether they were prosecuted or not, because they want to restrain freedom by imposing their likes among others. However, of course I expect a discrimated person to be more sensitive about another discriminated person. You don't?

Shermana said:

So good people don't try to stop incest and bad people want laws against it? By this logic, How about people who believe the age of consent should be 18? Who is to infringe on the rights of a 14 year old by saying they're a "Minor" and shouldn't have freedom to choose their partner? In your country Spain, I believe the age of consent is quite low, is it not? Am I a bad person if I think that age is too low?

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What on earth has to do sexual abuse with incest or homosexuality? I don't really get your example, but I will answer anyway.

The age of sexual consent in Spain is 13 years old, which coincides with the age of sexual maturity of the Spanish average. However, if it is demonstrated that a teenager was a victim of a hoax or somehow forced to consent, then it is also considered sexual abuse. When you're not a teenager anymore, you are considered mentally able to handle your sexual encounters and sexual abuse is no longer considered, unless you are violated, of course.

Again, you have the right to chose your partner, and your life, and whatever you want on it. But most teenagers are not capable of making their own choices because they rarely know what they want due to the inmaturity and growin up issues we all know. That's why their parents will take choices for them. But please don't evade the main topic of this thread.

Shermana said:

Knowing anything about anyone is more than enough info to judge them. It depends on what your own bias is in how you judge.

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Exactly.

otokage007 said:

I can not understand why a jew, that belongs to a group that was severely discriminated and persecuted, is willing to do the same against another group. This really speaks a lot about the horrible person you are :/

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Because we have both been discriminated against, we should be allys? Or automatically agree? What about native americans?

For example? Because most of things prohibited are so because of 1) doing them endangers yourself, or 2) doing them endangers those around you. And homosexuality does neither.

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I can list a dozen examples that fit that criteria and I'm pretty confident you would be against some of them.
In Germany the age of consent is 14. A 40 year old man can have sex with a 14 year old and you think I'm socially reprehensible because I have issues with this?

Quagmire said:

Not the point: there's a difference between saying "I'm against such and such" and saying ". . .and you better be too. In fact, if you aren't, you're a [fill-in-the-blank]".

This whole idea that it's OK to be fascist as long as it's for the right cause is not only hypocritical, but it tends to damage the very causes it's used to promote.

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Well you can read this thread. He not only said homosexuality is wrong, but also that he would do anything in his hand to make it socially unacceptable. He declares himself an activist against homosexuality, and I declare myself an activist against homophobia. And I think you are in the wrong side... But that really is my personal belief

By the way, I also declare myself against stoning women, against sexism, and against animal cruelty. And yes, everyone that is in favour of these things is an not a [fill-in-the-blank], but a pitiful idiot.

otokage007 said:

Well you can read this thread. He not only said homosexuality is wrong, but also that he would do anything in his hand to make it socially unacceptable. He declares himself an activist against homosexuality, and I declare myself an activist against homophobia. And I think you are in the wrong side... But that really is my personal belief

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You have no idea what side I'm on.

One thing that bothers me about this is that you're equating people that are against homosexuality as homophobic. It's like me saying that because you are not Jewish and don't believe what I believe, you are anti-semitic. You don't like being labeled, and we don't appreciate it either.

Deut 13:1 said:

I can list a dozen examples that fit that criteria and I'm pretty confident you would be against some of them.
In Germany the age of consent is 14. A 40 year old man can have sex with a 14 year old and you think I'm socially reprehensible because I have issues with this?

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In germany the girl or her parents can say she was tricked and the 40 year old man will probably go to jail.

And u are socially reprehensible because u are against equality and freedom of likes, not because u are against sexual abuse.

Deut 13:1 said:

One thing that bothers me about this is that you're equating people that are against homosexuality as homophobic. It's like me saying that because you are not Jewish and don't believe what I believe, you are anti-semitic. You don't like being labeled, and we don't appreciate it either.

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Homosexuality isn't a belief.Stating that homosexuals don't exist is exactly the same thing as believing Jews don't exist.Arguing that homosexuals shouldn't have equal rights is exactly the same thing as believing Jews shouldn't have equal rights.

Deut 13:1 said:

Because we have both been discriminated against, we should be allys? Or automatically agree? What about native americans

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Well, I would expect that at least you both were against discrimination.

Deut 13:1 said:

One thing that bothers me about this is that you're equating people that are against homosexuality as homophobic. It's like me saying that because you are not Jewish and don't believe what I believe, you are anti-semitic. You don't like being labeled, and we don't appreciate it either.

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The difference is that I would never say "I will do everything in my hands to make judaism socially unnacceptable". As you said about homosexuals. And yes, you are homophobic, too late to escape from that adjective.

Alceste said:

Homosexuality isn't a belief.Stating that homosexuals don't exist is exactly the same thing as believing Jews don't exist.Arguing that homosexuals shouldn't have equal rights is exactly the same thing as believing Jews shouldn't have equal rights.

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Where did I say they don't exist? You guys are implying that because I don't believe in something or support it that I'm homophobic. I'm simply saying you would not appreciate me switching homosexuality with Judaism, and homophobic with Anti-Semitic. Yes I believe homosexuality is not socially acceptable. I'm not going to apologize for my beliefs. They are mine, I'm not asking you to convert to my beliefs.

What rights are you fighting for?

Deut 13:1 said:

One thing that bothers me about this is that you're equating people that are against homosexuality as homophobic. It's like me saying that because you are not Jewish and don't believe what I believe, you are anti-semitic. You don't like being labeled, and we don't appreciate it either.

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That's fine if you believe what you believe. Where I'll part ways if you take your views to the voting booth to support measures that are against equal rights.

But free speech? Speak away! Say queers are bad! Just don't get too upset when others yell out how Jews are bad.

Deut 13:1 said:

Where did I say they don't exist? You guys are implying that because I don't believe in something or support it that I'm homophobic. I'm simply saying you would not appreciate me switching homosexuality with Judaism, and homophobic with Anti-Semitic. Yes I believe homosexuality is not socially acceptable. I'm not going to apologize for my beliefs. They are mine, I'm not asking you to convert to my beliefs.

What rights are you fighting for?

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How can you not "believe in" homosexuals? I don't care if you swap homophobic around with anti-Semitic. To me they're the same, as long as you're talking about the Jewish ethnicity and culture (which people have no choice in), not solely the religion (which people choose).

Until gay marriage was legalized in my country, I fought for equal rights for them, if you can call a few blog posts, internet comments and a letter to my MP a "fight". Now I just try to persuade our more bigoted neighbours to the South to join us in our enlightened position on gay marriage.

It all comes down to the same thing I always say in these threads: No one is obligated to accept another person or people. They are only obligated to tolerate them. Not everyone is going to like what you do. Not everyone likes it that I am a Christian-- if they like me but don't like my religion I don't accuse them of hating me. I am not saying whether or not I think sodomy or homosexuality is a sin or not-- I don't feel as though as that is truly the subject. Truthfully, the OT says nothing about being gay at all-- what the Bible does talk about is sodomy. That is something to keep in mind because if people are born gay, which I believe they are, then God couldn't possibly see it as a sin. The sex part I will not touch-- it doesn't effect me one way or another.

Alceste said:

If you find yourself using terms like "constructive criticism" in reference to something you describe as "the gay lifestyle", you just might be a bigot. Have you also got "constructive criticism" you would like to share with people who choose "the black lifestyle" or "the Chinese lifestyle"?

I've never met a bigot who would describe themselves as a bigot. In fact, if you think you might be a bigot, there seems to be less of a chance of actually being one. If you find yourself having to vehemently deny that you're a bigot on a regular basis, it might be time for a little quiet contemplation.

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A number of the KKK admits to being bigots.