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a question i have about christian beliefs

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
fromthe heart said:
We ARE all born unto sin...but I really don't believe that a baby will burn in Hell if it dies while below the age of accountability...which I believe to be the day they can reccognize sin to be sin...You have to KNOW sin is sin to be guilty of it. This is part of the reason children should be brought up learning why there is life to begin with.:)
This is why the Latter-day Saints believe we are born with a propensity or natural inclination to sin. Having a "sinful nature" (the Book of Mormon actually states that "the natural man is an enemy to God") is not the same as being a sinner. I agree that you can't sin until you know what sin is.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
TheGreaterGame said:
The passages of scripture you referenced have nothing to do with infant salvation . . . so look at the context and tell me what its talking about . . . but the passages are not dealing with salvation . . .
Well, I've got to disagree with you there.

I don't need to deal with any more texts then the ones I have mentioned . . . Rom 3:10-11, etc, etc . . . you can't get around them so deal with it.
Funny, I never did see the etc. etc. verses.

I wasn't talking about "the rest of us" I was talking about you.
I know you were, but since so many millions of Christians believe pretty much the same way I do, it strikes me as a bit odd that you'd single me out.

Secondly, to deny original sin from my perspective is to deny a basic doctrine that is fundamental to Christianity. I belive your interpretation is faulty.
And from my perspective, to believe in original sin is to deny a basic doctrine that is fundamental to Christianity. I believe your interpretation is faulty. I guess this is one we simply must agree to disagree on.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
fromtheheart:
but I really don't believe that a baby will burn in Hell if it dies while below the age of accountability
Why do you not believe this?
Is there scripture to support immunity from damnation for those ignorant of sin?
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Looks like this thread has been reduced to differences in Biblical interpretation once again, and, as always, there really isn't a way to argue why one interpretation is more valid than another.
 

Smoke

Done here.
TheGreaterGame said:
Do you understand that you are side stepping Hebrews 4:13 . . . and we have to keep defining Christianity to get to the main priciple of what Jesus would have us do . . . which is love God with all our heart, strength, and mind and love our neigbor as ourselves. If you don't love your neigbor you don't love God . . . and if you don't love God there is no way you will ever love your neigbor. Deal with Hebrews 4:13 . . . that is if you belive the bible.
I'm not "sidestepping" Hebrews 4.13, and no, I don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. But neither point has anything to do with the subject at hand. There are millions of Christians who do believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but not in your interpretation of it.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
jonny said:
Check out my thoughts on this in this thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24673

I believe there is only one sin that Christ will not pardon and that is the sin against the Holy Ghost.
Your thoughts would seem to make sense to me Jonny.

If the Christian God is truly merciful and just as we understand the concepts then according to the edicts of the Bible your thoughts seem to be the only way he could decide on a persons salvation.
 

glasgowchick

Gives Glory to God !!!
I think while it is true that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, I would like to point something out that was pointed out to me and this is just another thought, Reguarding Romans Scripture, could it be possible that in the context, Pual is being asked who is the greater sinners, those who are without the law and those under the law, Paul says it makes no difference " All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God "..Talking about the Jews and Gentiles..?


As for babies being sinners, well as katz has mentioned what sin has a baby committed, None..what is the meaning of sin ? well I believe it to mean when we transgress against Gods Laws, until then we are not guilty of sin until we commit it. Paul said

" Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[2] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Going from what Paul has said, he didn't know what sin was until the law came and told him he was sinning, when he knew that he was sining that was when he died [ spiritually ] . So like a baby until he/she knows right from wrong and realizes that He/She has comminted sins and in need of a savior then where has a sin taken place..
 

TheGreaterGame

Active Member
MidnightBlue said:
I'm not "sidestepping" Hebrews 4.13, and no, I don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. But neither point has anything to do with the subject at hand. There are millions of Christians who do believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but not in your interpretation of it.
Inerrancy has everything to do with this conversation and we have come to a point where we won't agree, my compass . . . the Bible, will not steer me off course.
 

Smoke

Done here.
TheGreaterGame said:
Inerrancy has everything to do with this conversation and we have come to a point where we won't agree, my compass . . . the Bible, will not steer me off course.
Inerrancy has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I'm perfectly content to discuss it from the point of view of Christian orthodoxy and biblical inerrancy; in fact, that's just what I've been doing. You insist on confusing the inerrancy of your own interpretation of scripture -- an interpretation which is not even close to universal among Christians -- with the inerrancy of scripture itself. But I haven't based my argument on the fallibility of scripture or on a denial of Christian doctrine; on the contrary, I've been showing that the doctrine of inherited guilt is inconsistent with Christian doctrine and, from a Christian point of view, must be a faulty interpretation of scripture.

So while we may have to agree to disagree, don't pretend that it's your faithfulness to the Bible that's the foundation of your position. Orthodox Christians believe just as firmly as you do in the inerrancy of scripture, but completely reject your interpretation of it.
 

TheGreaterGame

Active Member
Your view is Semi Pelagian . . . which is condemned as heresy by The Church. To say babies are born without sin . . . is to deny what scripture expresses clearly . . . and that is "ALL HAVE SINNED" . . . but do me a favor . . . don't say Christ sinned . . . because we have been through this Christ was sinless (Heb 4:13) . . . to deny original sin is to be highly unorthodox . . . I mean all of this with the best of intentions.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
TheGreaterGame said:
Your view is Semi Pelagian . . . which is condemned as heresy by The Church.
See, here's where I think we're losing you. "The Church," as you refer to your own denomination, is not "the Church" which existed in the first century. There are now over 30,000 different denominations claiming to be "the Church." Why don't you just accept that fact that other individuals who are also a part of "the Church" don't agree with your interpretation. It's really just that simple.
 

Smoke

Done here.
TheGreaterGame said:
Your view is Semi Pelagian . . . which is condemned as heresy by The Church.
Hogwash. My view has nothing to do with Semi-Pelagianism at all; the view I'm defending is that of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

TheGreaterGame said:
To say babies are born without sin . . . is to deny what scripture expresses clearly . . . and that is "ALL HAVE SINNED" . . . but do me a favor . . . don't say Christ sinned . . . because we have been through this Christ was sinless (Heb 4:13)
I didn't say that Christ sinned. I said the sinlessness of Christ is proof that guilt is not inherited by humans.

TheGreaterGame said:
to deny original sin is to be highly unorthodox . . .
But in this thread I haven't denied original sin, only your Augustinian notion of original sin. I have defended the view held by the Eastern Orthodox Church and -- somewhat to my surprise -- by the LDS Church.

TheGreaterGame said:
I mean all of this with the best of intentions.
I believe you. I just wish your good intentions translated into addressing what I'm saying, instead of repeatedly trying to dismiss me as a heretic whose views are not worth addressing.
 

TheGreaterGame

Active Member
Katzpur said:
See, here's where I think we're losing you. "The Church," as you refer to your own denomination, is not "the Church" which existed in the first century. There are now over 30,000 different denominations claiming to be "the Church." Why don't you just accept that fact that other individuals who are also a part of "the Church" don't agree with your interpretation. It's really just that simple.
This needs to be fleshed out in a different thread . . . I'll get it started later.
 

TheGreaterGame

Active Member
MidnightBlue said:
Hogwash. My view has nothing to do with Semi-Pelagianism at all; the view I'm defending is that of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

I didn't say that Christ sinned. I said the sinlessness of Christ is proof that guilt is not inherited by humans.

But in this thread I haven't denied original sin, only your Augustinian notion of original sin. I have defended the view held by the Eastern Orthodox Church and -- somewhat to my surprise -- by the LDS Church.

I believe you. I just wish your good intentions translated into addressing what I'm saying, instead of repeatedly trying to dismiss me as a heretic whose views are not worth addressing.
Likewise, this needs to be a thread on THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN AND ITS IMPLICATIONS . . . I will try to get it started a little later . . . we have got off the point of this thread and started debating a long time ago . . . so we can deal with this issue else where today or tonight . . . later . . . game out
 
"Heaven" and "Hell" are two of the most well-known Biblical words. A great amount has been written and debated as to what they are, and where they are. But what does the Holy Bible actually say about them? "Heaven" translated meaning the sky, the atmosphere. Hell was an Old-English word that, at the time when the classic King James version was translated in 1611, meant simply the grave, or a hole in the ground.

Heaven and hell are largely in our mind. If you treasure a good thought, then you are creating Heaven. If you cry to God for light, then you get a good experience, an illumining experience, and this experience is nothing but Heaven. Again, if you treasure a negative thought, then you are creating hell. Heaven and hell can be experienced every day.
 
When a seeker prays and meditates, he enters into Heaven. When his mind is calm and quiet, when his mind is tranquillity’s flood, his heart becomes all-giving and his life becomes Divinity’s Reality. Heaven is not a place; it is a state of consciousness. When we free our mind from the meshes of ignorance, when we liberate our existence from the mire of earth, we see, feel and grow into Heaven.

Heaven and hell are largely in our mind. If you treasure a good thought, then you are creating Heaven. If you cry to God for light, then you get a good experience, an illumining experience, and this experience is nothing but Heaven. Again, if you treasure a negative thought, then you are creating hell. Heaven and hell can be experienced every day.

We do not have to wait for death to find hell or Heaven. Both of them are within us in our daily life, in our daily conduct. If we are always soulful and surrendered, we are in a position to remain always in Heaven in this very life on earth.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Solon said:
I have never ever come across some many self-deluded people; really it beggars credulity. I mean, Ok, you can believe this stuff if you want, but I'm simply amazed that you talk like you have some experience of things you think are to come in the way of it's factual. At best it's groundless speculation, at worse, it's totally ludicrous. If you join us and repent, you'll go to heaven, if you don't , you'll still go heaven. talk about hedging your bets lol.

S

Self-deluded people? Most of the world believes in God. If you hate God because he does not communicate with you then don't you still believe?

God is not an old human man with a beard who lives in the clouds. He is sentient energy and He is connected to us through our souls. Communication is happening constantly between the two. With practice it's possible to listen in but understanding it takes even more time.

This is your life. Your choice to find God or not is absolutely your choice.
 

may

Well-Known Member
Debater in Calgary said:
"Heaven" and "Hell" are two of the most well-known Biblical words. A great amount has been written and debated as to what they are, and where they are. But what does the Holy Bible actually say about them? "Heaven" translated meaning the sky, the atmosphere. Hell was an Old-English word that, at the time when the classic King James version was translated in 1611, meant simply the grave, or a hole in the ground.

Heaven and hell are largely in our mind. If you treasure a good thought, then you are creating Heaven. If you cry to God for light, then you get a good experience, an illumining experience, and this experience is nothing but Heaven. Again, if you treasure a negative thought, then you are creating hell. Heaven and hell can be experienced every day.

heavens can refer to Jehovah God in his sovereign position. when Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that the experience the Babylonian emperor was due to have would make him "know that the heavens are ruling," it meant the same as knowing "that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind."—Da 4:25, 26.
the term "heavens" can also refer to other ruling powers that are exalted or lifted up above their subject peoples.
The connection of the "heavens" with ruling power aids in understanding the meaning of the expression "new heavens and a new earth" found at Isaiah 65:17; 66:22 and quoted by the apostle Peter at 2 Peter 3:13. , M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: "In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people. so the heavens can sometime be refering to ruling powers
 

darkwaldo

Member
fromthe heart said:
With the mission field being so well in the far reaches of the earth I would say if the word has not reached these people you are concerned about then I don't think God would send tham to hell just because they have not been informed of the truths of God's word. Once you hear the word then you ARE responsible for your actions/sins/responsibility to make the choice.
FTH

What if the missionary spreading the word of god wasn't convincing enough? How can a benevolent and understanding god send people to hell when the missionaries who answer his call can't convince people that he exist.
 
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