Self Imposed Labels (religious)

If your label starts to define you, get a new label. Don't conform to stereo-types unless it just happens to line up with your nature by pure chance.

NIX said:

Beyond this forum (and other like minded people), In real everyday life, do you find that these labels actually help the people around you to accurately understand what you are about, or what you believe?
What are people's general reactions to your labels when you present them?

Or do the labels serve more to solidify your own perspectives and points of view to yourself?

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A lot of people do not know what a pantheist is, but for those who do? Helps a lot. I think saying "I am a pantheist and a hard polytheist" is a very good way to communicate what I beleive, as I am using the dictionary defintion of those terms. Dropping the "Satanist" label is trickyier, and only really works if they understand my beliefs ahead of time... most of the time anyways.

How do they react? As for when dropping the Satanic label both with or without "pantheism"... it depends on the person. I don't wont to label everyone the same, but I've gotten told once that Satanists kidnap and kill children (including the CoS) to my face, I've had people tell me that they are gonna pray for me, I've had one guy ask why I use that term and what it was about (then they said I define my terms differently), I've had one family member be struck in fear (then later keep her mouth shut about it), had my step-mom tell me that I was gonna go to hell (fundie, real nice of her to say that :sarcastic), I've another family memeber act nice below their ignorance and bigotry, I've had a guy not care, another guy say nothing about it but express with his face mild surprise (maybe cause' it was the guy at the counter of a record store helping me decide between two albums from a Satanic band), I've had someone say "who cares?" (though I knew her in real life it was on facebook), another family member said to read the Screwtape Letters to get an idea of the reverse and that there was spiritual danger to it, and another family member at first act like I was doing it for attention (only to seem okay with it later on), and my grandfather, who thinks poorly of all religion, really didn't care at all but was very careful to not offend me (he's a liberal), and probably a couple more reactions I can't think of.

edit: thought of another one, an old teacher from a christian school that told me I must "indeed been hurt to turn from a religion of love to unlove".

NIX said:

A rather obvious thought that had not directly crossed my mind- maybe people find their labels useful in finding other like minded people. Like minded companionship is a generally sought after human experience.

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That is probably one of many reasons that I can relate to as a Satanist.

Mestemia said:

Seems to me that labels serve mainly to feed the elitism in people.

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Depends, I use labels to be concise and to name the parts that work in function, not to place more importance on something than is deserved.

NIX said:

Is your label there to show who you are- to paint a more succinct picture of 'you',
or are you there to show what your label means- to paint a more succinct picture of 'it'. To bring 'it' to life, so to speak.

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I still think the question is quite general, and simple answer cannot be provided. I think it depends on from which angle you would look at it, for instance if to look at it from a political scope. If a certain regime governed on the basis of a religious teaching, and I was happened to be adherent of that particular religion from which laws are formulated. I would have then certainly enjoy some legitimate privileges that a non-believer wouldn't have (label serves me).

Take it from a social perspective, if I was happened to be a descendant of the founder of particular religion, I would be probably found myself in a higher rung of the social ladder that otherwise I would't attain (label serves me).

From religiosity point of view, I'm not sure about all religions but in some by performing rituals and prayers prescribed by the religion, you will be rewarded and thus you must declare it and not being ashamed of it. And therefore label could also serve in a super-sensible way.

Well, some believe it is their duty to serve their religions by helping others through charities, missionaries and so forth. Others are free thinkers who might have an odd and unique thoughts about their religions which they perceive as true. However according to them the scriptures/documents were somehow misinterpreted to fit the interest of minority/ruling class, and for this they think it is their duty to re-interpret and correct the predominant fallible concepts and thus serving their religion (label).

NIX said:

I'm getting at the fact that the outside world reacts to and makes certain assumptions about people of certain religions. (according to cultural norms and biases). Those assumptions may or may not be correct, and may work to the advantage or disadvantage of the label wearer. As such, we are effected/affected externally by the labels we take upon ourselves.
If our labels effect us socially in a negative way thus making our lives harder- who is to blame? In such a case, is it better to just keep your label to yourself? Is it your fault, or society's fault that you are seen in a negative light?
If our labels effect us socially in a positive way making our lives more easilly integrated with the cultural norms around us, is the label externally- little more than a public show/confirmation of conformity? Is this something to be applauded all around?

Which brings to mind another question. Is it really in your own best interest to wear an unpopular label? Or should you just wear it because you like it, regardless. What if there is cultural backlash?
Which brings us back to , who is the label ultimately for? What is it's purpose? Why would anyone WANT to be identified (by others) as something culturally damaging? (regardless of the fact that it is completely untrue)

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Thank you for taking the effort to re-explain it . But (Don't get mad at ) I still kind of not grasping it thoroughly, but let try me to answer based on what I understood and see if that's what you mean.

I think the effects of the outside on our behavior generally is a determinant factor, and shouldn't be consider secondary. Even, if we pick up our labels sincerely so that we believe we are expressing who we really are. I think we just reflect on our experience and the outsider influences much more than expressing one's self. Take this for example, a Muslim who had terrible and miserable life when was child, raised up by father who would hit the mother everyday. And furthermore he rationalized this by some interpretations from the koran. When this child grew, there would be more possibility that who would change his label due to this. Another Muslim who had peaceful childhood, inspiring parents that he believed they have raised him up with accord to the teachings of the Koran would perhaps hold to his label and might be surprised at the former person who changed the same label.

Others may fear the consequences of changing their label, and thus as you said the label is nothing but a confirmatory tool to avoid any conflict that might result if someone decided to change the label. So probably, they may keep their inner faith to themselves.

NIX said:

For those of you who wear your religious labels primarily for others,
so that others might easily be able to identify your beliefs and philosophies
do you find that the general public perception/understanding of your label
does actually match your own understanding of your label?

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Good question :yes:.

Well, if I want the public not to confuse my faith/attitudes with the general perception of the main label (Islam). Then, I should use a sub-label (Sunni,shia, sufi etc...) or even if necessary I come up with my own to describe my label.

NIX said:

In practice, is your label an accurate social identifier as you are concerned?
Or do people's personal associations with your label tend to speak more to them of their own associations with your label than they do of (what you actually mean by) 'your label'?

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Again general labels are ambiguous, sub-labels are more accurate.

SLAMH said:

Again general labels are ambiguous....

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Labels in general are ambiguous. You see that so clearly by so many of the conversations on this forum. People infuse them with their OWN personal meanings and slants and value/baggage added. Word usage in general is so much more a subjective endeavor than our educational systems would ever dare to admit.

I'm quite sure very often, that people are only speaking to one another on a very thinly layered surface. Pick or dig in just a bit deeper and the whole thing cracks or collapses. Mostly, people just communicate well enough to 'get along'. Deeper and more accurate understanding of one another is a far rarer thing. Personal assumptions and preconceived notions tend to rule the day (or at least the minds of most individuals).

as a (fellow?) chaot i would say all of my labels are self imposed though some or more appropriate then others

Labels are useful language sometimes...

jasonwill2 said:

Labels are useful language sometimes...

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or tool symbol mask etc

Check my banner.

As the years have gone by, I have found no other suitable label.
Having dropped religion and dogmatic faith...

Man has been noted as that creature that gives names....
doing so is a form of control.

If you can name it, you're on your way to control.

But my technique is not found in congregation or scripture.
So here I am....on my own.
a rogue theologian.

Thief said:

Check my banner.

As the years have gone by, I have found no other suitable label.
Having dropped religion and dogmatic faith...

Man has been noted as that creature that gives names....
doing so is a form of control.

If you can name it, you're on your way to control.

But my technique is not found in congregation or scripture.
So here I am....on my own.
a rogue theologian.

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"rogue theologian" is your label then.

NIX said:

Do our labels define us, or do we define our labels?

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Labels are defined by people, not the other way around.

Who are our labels for? The self? or others?
What purpose do they really serve?
Do our labels serve us? Or do we serve our labels?

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Labels are for others. You do not need a label for yourself, you understand exactly who you are without having to even say anything. Labels help others get a sense of where we stand, it is a basic starting point. Labels serve us, at least they should. Some people try to fit into a certain label, but I don't understand. If you use a label as a starting point for others, it should fit you not the other way around.

Do the outside effects our labels have on our lives say more about us (as deliberate label bearers), the world around us (and pop culture climate/media bias/slant/take), or the individuals who surround us? (and their own personal perceptions)

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I am not sure what you mean... Our labels simply are suppose to give a basic idea of where we stand. For example, if someone labels themselves Christian you can at least have a basic idea of where they stand. For example, you know right off the bat that they believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Do our religious labels reflect the desire of humans to be part of/associated with a group?
If you choose to share a label with others, is it then fair to complain when you don't like the actions and belief of others who (have also chosen to) identify by 'your' label?
If you knowingly choose to don a label that will often generate incorrect assumptions about you (and especially what you feel are negative assumptions) is there really any point in getting offended by it or upset about it when it inevitably happens?

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In some cases, you can't over generalize. Yes, you can complain when someone is ignorant to the basic meaning of a label. If someone automatically thinks that a Satanist is a devil worshiper they are ignorant, and ignorance needs not be tolerated, only addressed. We are not just making up words. A label does not mean whatever you want it to. There is a criteria to carrying each label. The ignorance of others is not your fault, and if they are to uneducated and unevolved to learn about the ideas behind a label before judging it that is their fault. Let people be responsible for their own actions. Offended or upset? No, there is really no need to. You can address the person's ignorance and, if they refuse to gain any knowledge, go ahead and be upset for wasting your time talking to animals.

In the end, are religious labels more subjective or objective in meaning and interpretation? If you say 'objective', I ask 'objective' by whose standards/authority?

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Objective. By the standards of reason and definitions. The label of Christian is dependent on ideas tied to it, the word "Christ" being in it, the very definition of "Christian", the reasoning of looking at the story of Christ, the meaning of Christ, and inferring what one believes who takes the label, etc.

Is there really any such thing as a "true"/real (or 'fake') ___________? (fill in the blank with any religion)
And who gets to say what that is? (or isn't)

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Yes. If someone labels themselves a "Christian", for example, and they do not believe in Christ, do not accept anything in the bible, believe that there is no God, etc they are not a real Christian. Again, it is not a mater of who gets to say it, it is a matter of definitions and logic.

NIX said:

Labels in general are ambiguous. You see that so clearly by so many of the conversations on this forum. People infuse them with their OWN personal meanings and slants and value/baggage added. Word usage in general is so much more a subjective endeavor than our educational systems would ever dare to admit.

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Are the labels ambiguous, or the people subjective ?. Perhaps, both are different sides of the same coin.

NIX said:

I'm quite sure very often, that people are only speaking to one another on a very thinly layered surface. Pick or dig in just a bit deeper and the whole thing cracks or collapses. Mostly, people just communicate well enough to 'get along'. Deeper and more accurate understanding of one another is a far rarer thing. Personal assumptions and preconceived notions tend to rule the day (or at least the minds of most individuals).

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Define "get along" ?, Is it like tolerating someone's faith ?
And what should "deeper and more accurate understanding" yield in return, and how is it different from "getting along" ?

The Doors of Perception said:

Objective. By the standards of reason and definitions. The label of Christian is dependent on ideas tied to it, the word "Christ" being in it, the very definition of "Christian", the reasoning of looking at the story of Christ, the meaning of Christ, and inferring what one believes who takes the label, etc.


Yes. If someone labels themselves a "Christian", for example, and they do not believe in Christ, do not accept anything in the bible, believe that there is no God, etc they are not a real Christian. Again, it is not a mater of who gets to say it, it is a matter of definitions and logic.

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The Christ Story can be interpretted and understood in many differing ways, from as many view points as there are people- both symbolic and literal- esoteric or esoteric. So who is to say which one is (one's are) correct, or 'officially valid'. Whose definitions and logic win the title?

NIX said:

The Christ Story can be interpretted and understood in many differing ways, from as many view points as there are people- both symbolic and literal- esoteric or esoteric. So who is to say which one is (one's are) correct, or 'officially valid'. Whose definitions and logic win the title?

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the victor or viewer?

SLAMH said:

Are the labels ambiguous, or the people subjective ?. Perhaps, both are different sides of the same coin.

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I suppose labels are as (meaningfully) ambiguous as peoples' "pictures" of them are different/varried. Perhaps they are.

SLAMH said:

Define "get along" ?, Is it like tolerating someone's faith ?
And what should "deeper and more accurate understanding" yield in return, and how is it different from "getting along" ?

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In daily everyday life people generally just get along- or 'get on' together, accomplishing their own parts, fulfilling their own roles in the day's business of 'getting (or moving) along'. We see only little 'sketches' of each other, which may include titles and other labels. What people think they see beyond that often has far more to do with what they think and see, than it has anything at all to do with the person (they imagine) they are observing.

NIX said:

The Christ Story can be interpretted and understood in many differing ways, from as many view points as there are people- both symbolic and literal- esoteric or esoteric. So who is to say which one is (one's are) correct, or 'officially valid'. Whose definitions and logic win the title?

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Doesn't matter, now we have moved past labels and into philosophy.

The Doors of Perception said:

Doesn't matter, now we have moved past labels and into philosophy.

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What doesn't matter?

Iti oj said:

the victor or viewer?

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I am not viewing your response victoriously (in my own mind) as I don't understand it.

NIX said:

I am not viewing your response victoriously (in my own mind) as I don't understand it.

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if theirs no winner then the viewer decided who was right =D

Iti oj said:

if theirs no winner then the viewer decided who was right =D

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Viewers often decide things. Observers simply observe. In either case there can be 'no winner'.

NIX said:

What doesn't matter?

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How a practitioner interprets Christianity does not matter relative to what I said previously. No matter how a Christian interprets it, they will all fit the criteria of the label "Christian".